#21  
Old 12-06-2017, 01:46 PM
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I am interested in people thoughts on how far critique should go when providing feedback on images.

Should it include taking someone's data, reprocessing and posting it back up?

Personally I am more than happy when people provide constructive comments as it can only add to my knowledge but uninvited reprocessing..not sure about that. Those final touches are a personal thing.

What do others think?
Well,I think that a man has to do what a man has to do!

Having said that, I fail to see how you can be comfortable with editing another persons data without seeking permission.

It seems to me, that there should be no reason why you can't explain what you like about an image,or don't like If you feel the need.

If there's nothing fundamentally wrong with an image, then the rest is aesthetics which is very subjective and reserved for the artist to interpret as he see's fit.....whether one likes It or not....tough titty.

Do we really want a bunch of clones?

The feelings on this issue are not new and have been going on for many many years.

If your intention is to help people,you really should spend more time in the beginners imaging forum where you probably would provide much welcomed assistance I would think.

If your intentions are to boost your own persona and justify your ego so you can feel important I say FFFFFF offffffff

Hope this clarifies my somewhat soft stand on this issue
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  #22  
Old 12-06-2017, 01:48 PM
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Hi Andrew,

I meant folks that don't really engage with the forum at all apart from posting images. I certainly wouldn't put you in that category!

Cheers,
Rick.
Hey stop calling me folks Rick.....then again,Ive been called much worse
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  #23  
Old 12-06-2017, 02:28 PM
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Hey stop calling me folks Rick.....then again,Ive been called much worse
Didn't mean you either, Louie There are a bunch of people who swear by your PS tutorials. Nobody could accuse you of not contributing...
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  #24  
Old 12-06-2017, 02:41 PM
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..Hope this clarifies my somewhat soft stand on this issue

Well put but I think you maybe holding back a little..
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  #25  
Old 12-06-2017, 02:45 PM
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Didn't mean you either, Louie There are a bunch of people who swear by your PS tutorials. Nobody could accuse you of not contributing...
.....ahhhh,I almost felt needed....can we pretend you meant me?
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  #26  
Old 12-06-2017, 02:48 PM
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Well put but I think you maybe holding back a little..
Yes yes.....I'm a softyas long as I don't listen to the voices in my head
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  #27  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:40 PM
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Having said that, I fail to see how you can be comfortable with editing another persons data without seeking permission.
I often thought about repro'ing your data Louie but it was too far gone. Didn't have the skillset to recover anything. Sorry.
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  #28  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:54 PM
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Some very good comments here!

Louie said it the best, I think in some cases ego has a large influence:

"If your intention is to help people,you really should spend more time in the beginners imaging forum where you probably would provide much welcomed assistance I would think.

If your intentions are to boost your own persona and justify your ego so you can feel important I say FFFFFF offffffff"

And as for lack of comments, yes here it seems to depend on who you click with and how often you interact with others. In my case it also depends on who you piss off, there's one higher profile imager here who now rarely comments on my images, very childish but really, who cares? Ah the 'net, don't ya love it!
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  #29  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:03 PM
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Mods, is there a quote of the month award? I nominate this, a classic!
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I often thought about repro'ing your data Louie but it was too far gone. Didn't have the skillset to recover anything. Sorry.
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  #30  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:16 PM
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I often thought about repro'ing your data Louie but it was too far gone. Didn't have the skillset to recover anything. Sorry.
Ha!I told you meany times marc!!!use bloody masks....see you at the Three Swallows....shut up voices!I'm only ganna have a beer with a french toast...I mean mate.
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  #31  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:23 PM
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Some very good comments here!

Louie said it the best, I think in some cases ego has a large influence:

"If your intention is to help people,you really should spend more time in the beginners imaging forum where you probably would provide much welcomed assistance I would think.

If your intentions are to boost your own persona and justify your ego so you can feel important I say FFFFFF offffffff"

And as for lack of comments, yes here it seems to depend on who you click with and how often you interact with others. In my case it also depends on who you piss off, there's one higher profile imager here who now rarely comments on my images, very childish but really, who cares? Ah the 'net, don't ya love it!
Yes yes!I except responsability....you totaly pee me off Simon...do you really think I'm a high end imager?...hey....there goes a dog with a fluffy talehehehe....back soon....
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  #32  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
... Should it include taking someone's data, reprocessing and posting it back up?

Personally I am more than happy when people provide constructive comments as it can only add to my knowledge but uninvited reprocessing..not sure about that. Those final touches are a personal thing.

What do others think?
Context matters. I suppose it's a bit like your Mum cutting up your meat. When you're just starting out, it's appreciated. When you've brought your girlfriend home to meet the folks .... not so much.
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  #33  
Old 13-06-2017, 02:46 AM
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Aside from creating a structure in which people can interact, etiquette is about making others comfortable and treating them with respect. In this way everyone feels free to speak, provide input or display their work .

We should always think about comments before we post them. If we think a comment might offend or be taken the wrong way, then perhaps the suggestion could be made privately. Like most things, moderation is important - It's a question of a balance between a free and frank discussion versus embarrassing and alienating others.

Best
JA
Good post. I agree with this. I don't mind comments about my images as I sometimes get it really right but often I miss the obvious that is pointed out. Like a quality control point.

But there is the aspect of treating others like you would want to be treated. Very occasionally - rarely really, that does not occur but generally speaking I find the people here on IIS really nice people. Mostly they mean well.

Also you don't know the situation when someone posts and you have to put up with that. Someone had a rough day, just had a fight with their partner,
the cheque bounced, they've been drinking etc etc.

How people usually are is the key. If someone is routinely off then you expect them to act that way and its less annoying. You would be surprised if they were positive. If someone is a bit rough who is normally friendly you cut them some slack just like you would in real life.

There is always the ignore button as well!

Greg.
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  #34  
Old 13-06-2017, 05:37 AM
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Good post. I agree with this. I don't mind comments about my images as I sometimes get it really right but often I miss the obvious that is pointed out. Like a quality control point.

But there is the aspect of treating others like you would want to be treated. Very occasionally - rarely really, that does not occur but generally speaking I find the people here on IIS really nice people. Mostly they mean well.

Also you don't know the situation when someone posts and you have to put up with that. Someone had a rough day, just had a fight with their partner,
the cheque bounced, they've been drinking etc etc.

How people usually are is the key. If someone is routinely off then you expect them to act that way and its less annoying. You would be surprised if they were positive. If someone is a bit rough who is normally friendly you cut them some slack just like you would in real life.

There is always the ignore button as well!

Greg.
Of course everyone means well - within the narrow context of what they see as the correct way to do things AP related, and therein lies the problem. My gripe is that certain methodology driven individuals have no respect for those that want to do things differently and they get frustrated by what they see that strays from their way of doing it. Different choices in histogram alignment and colour balance, or a lack of equivalent data values for channels than they might choose does not make an image wrong. And it is not their job to correct the contributor to align with their methodology, and thus produce a carbon copy of how they would do it. That might be welcome in the beginners imaging forum, where people are developing skills in the use of tools, but calling out experienced imagers time after time for non-adherance to their norm is not a simple mistake, but rather a calculated attack on a different viewpoint. You cannot just use an 'ignore' list to block these people, because other viewers are still going to read what they publish and they want to be noticed. If they were simply trying to be helpful a PM is enough, and that is easily ignored. Their intent (whether concious or not) is to drive out non-conformity, using an almost religious zealot approach in which they are the masters. And of course they don't recognise this, they are just trying to help they will say. The end effect is the same, conform or leave, is implied.
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  #35  
Old 13-06-2017, 07:15 AM
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I'm late noticing this thread. A year ago I posted a photo I'd worked on a long time. A certain person decided quite on his own to reprocess it without asking and posted the result with the comment "do you think this is better?" I was really put off and no, it wasn't better. It was just plain annoying. My personal opinion is that this should stop. I think it is rude.

This should not be taken to indicate that I will not accept criticism or suggestion. Far from it! I have learned a ton from people here and it is much appreciated. For me, however, this just crosses a line that ought to be respected.

Peter
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Old 13-06-2017, 08:16 AM
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I'm late noticing this thread. A year ago I posted a photo I'd worked on a long time. A certain person decided quite on his own to reprocess it without asking and posted the result with the comment "do you think this is better?" I was really put off and no, it wasn't better. It was just plain annoying. My personal opinion is that this should stop. I think it is rude.

This should not be taken to indicate that I will not accept criticism or suggestion. Far from it! I have learned a ton from people here and it is much appreciated. For me, however, this just crosses a line that ought to be respected.

Peter

Hi Peter,
that sounds like something I would write.
I can't find it but I did find this where I was discussing the good points of NASA FITS Liberator with you:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...d.php?t=126902


Anyway - I think I've annoyed enough people with my honest opinions.
I'll stop doing it & only comment if I absolutely 100% agree with
whatever the poster has done & make great praise.

cheers
Allan
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  #37  
Old 13-06-2017, 08:37 AM
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I spent many years contributing to an international Landscape Forum (FM), and there it was unthinkable that anyone would process another person's image without asking first - even then, highly unusual.

The finished image is an artwork, not just a bunch of data. For better or worse, the result is a personal statement.

Astro image processing is, however, complex and at times very difficult, so constructive help in the form of reprocessing the data accompanied by a description of what was done may be warranted.

But the key point remains:it is good etiquette to ask first.

Mark
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  #38  
Old 13-06-2017, 08:48 AM
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Mike Salway and Terry (mojo), the owners of IIS, have made it clear in the past that people do not have the right to just go ahead and re-process someone else's work and post it up without the express permission of the owner of the data.

This is not permitted and is an unwritten rule here.
The moderators have been asked to step in at times when this has happened.
I've even had to ban a certain individual, who, even after we asked him to stop, had taken it upon himself to continue to do so in the name of 'Science'.

It is akin to walking up to someone's gear on the observing field and taking an eyepiece to try out for yourself without asking their permission.

If anyone here belongs to any well established photography forum then you'd know that editing someone's work without their permission is expressly forbidden and could earn you a stern warning or a ban.

Also another thing mojo had asked me to keep an eye on is people posting images on here that are not their own.
This is not acceptable either, you need to post a link to the image instead and give reference to the source and/or author.
Posting an image via attachment that's not your own is not allowed.

Hope this clarifies some 'etiquette rules' here on IIS.

RB
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  #39  
Old 13-06-2017, 08:52 AM
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Didn't mean you either, Louie There are a bunch of people who swear by your PS tutorials. Nobody could accuse you of not contributing...
Actually I learned a lot from those when I first encountered them. So hats off to you Louie.
PS: What's with the Greek subtitles though... or is it just my PC doing that?
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  #40  
Old 13-06-2017, 09:29 AM
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DJT,

An interesting question and a lot of interesting responses. I see things differently to most people. I suffered a stroke 3 yrs ago, was half paralysed and spent 5 months learning to walk again though my left arm remains dead and useless with no hope of treatment in Australia. As I went through the health care system I encountered a wide variety of personality types all with the same struggles. Just like you expect in any real life situation, unlinke most situations where being lazy, or looking for shortcuts, or expecting others to do the task for you doesnt truely matter. When it comes to recovery from any brain injury it disappointed me to see people unwilling to participate in rehab exercises for their own benefit and would prefer to live from a wheelchair rather than walk again. Which is what my doctors and physios expected from me. Eff that!

So I can probably come off aggressive in my responses at times when I recognise someone too lazy to make the effort to try or learn and just expect to be handed a magic button to push to fix their images. The more you try, throw away ALL your assumptions, do the wrong thing anyway and it all adds up to experience and you learn how tiny changes can effect the outcome. Every waking second is a struggle for me and agonising pain, I can't use my good telescope anymore or do photography the way I like, I've had to adapt and find ways to get the results I want as best I can, which is still crap compared to most people but it's the best I can do at the moment. So i know its BS when people say they need tons of gear to do AP because they just don't. When you understand what is the problem with your images you should be able to find a way around the problem. If it takes a little extra time then so what? deal with it. Most of the whiners are using gear I would love to use and still their shots are crap compared to mine and mine aren't much good.

So yeah , if you post images to a forum, expect feedback, and deal with it. People expect you to listen to answers if you post a question. Sometimes people ask the wrong question, in time they hopefully understand why the question is wrong. None of us are perfect, and my point of view is astrophotography is mainly about the processing, which is time consuming and complex. There's no easy solution, just try things and try to comprehend what using X in program Y means in terms of your final image. Its typically a subjective process and I assume if you are doing research and need to make measurements from your images thats a whole other level too.

Also expect people to post reworked images too, maybe many do it because they dont understand either. But there are times it can show you original data contains a lot more good signal that can be teased out. Many posters dont provide much information on what they did to get the image in the first place so people dont have much to go on in providing a valuable answer and just go off the image. So dont just be disapointed by the responses if you didnt do enough to explain what you did and what aspect of your process you struggled with. Too many basically ask "I just bought the cheapest dslr I could find, Only took one photo, didn't try any turorials or read the manual: what button do i need to push on my camera to make my photo look like {insert any David Malin example shot here}". I dont expect everyone here to be highly inteligent and learners willing to actually learn I have tons of time for and try to provide as much guidance for them. I prefer to steer them on a path they can learn from themselves and explore their interest rather than a cold: "press this button, adjust setting to this" which doesnt allow for much self discovery. I know my answers wont be perfect or the same as everyone elses but I am confident they will provide a gain to the person asking, if they ignore my answer or others disagree thats fine, opinions and all that. A few have provided feedback that shows they are taking stuff on board and learning, which is great. All I can do to help is provide information as best I can from my own experiences and hope some of it helps someone.
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