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Old 23-11-2009, 12:19 PM
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Old 23-11-2009, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
LOL! No - no-one could ever hope to put themselves through an ivy league school on restaurant wages. Her family is pretty well off - and come from Rhode Island. She's just "doing her bit" to contribute- which is pretty admirable of her. She was brought up on high moral standards.

As far as doubling her wage in tips - it ISN'T hard!!!! She gets about US$12.00 per hour as a table waitress, which is pretty normal in that business there. One tip along would see her get a $20. I don't see that happening over here.
Thought so...you'd be flat out going through an "ordinary" university or college over there on those wages!!!

$12 an hour is not good wages...even juniors out here can earn better than that, even part time...at least here in QLD. They don't need to be tipped, their wages are quite adequate. Kids working at the fast food chains get paid less, but then again those establishments don't like paying any of their workers what they're worth. I know from experience.

In any case, what benefits was she being paid on top of her wages...I know for a fact that they don't pay sickness benefits and all the stuff we get here unless it's stipulated as part of their wages/work package by the company someone works for. For the most part, you get paid your wages then you're hung out to dry. Not that she would need them, being from the background she is (her parents would help out). Even out here, though, wages can be a dodgy affair. Some employers are better than others and quite a few places seem to get away with underpaying staff.

However, in equivalent dollar value, she's earning less than what she would as an introductory wage (by nearly $3/hr) and if she worked as a casual, the intro rate is more than 50% higher ($18.20/hr). On top of that she gets the usual benefits. I know where I'd rather work.
  #43  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:36 PM
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Absolutely Carl - she gets medical, dental, 401k, etc, etc. It ain't a bad deal really. It's just hard to quantify it without asker her directly, which I, being a gentleman, would not make enquiries of. Our people over here in similar work don't get that.

By and by - transport, cars, rent, fuel, food and other basics are typically cheaper over there. Not across the board, but I found living in the USA on my Aussie salary pretty easy going for my five years there in New York and LA.

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Even out here, though, wages can be a dodgy affair. Some employers are better than others and quite a few places seem to get away with underpaying staff.
Case in point - Chili's Restaurant. Even expected the kids to use their own wage to run as a change float.

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2009 at 12:46 PM.
  #44  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:40 PM
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Actually Andrew I was in the USA in 97. I didnt share your experiance I have to say. They wernt too bad but not even close to the standard of service we get in Australia. And the worst thing was food quality and cleanliness. Did'nt come close to Australian standards in my opinion. As for which is the better system well that depends of course on what your criteria is. I cant say that I would use the criteria you are using.
TBH mate, its horses for courses, swings and roundabouts. I would say that the standard of service in the USA is MUCH higher than here in Oz, no scratch that, i dont want to upset my Aussie friends, and rightly so, so lets just say, the standard in the USA is SOOOOOOO much higher here than in Canberra, i am sick of not hearing the magic two words "please" and "thank you" anytime i go to Woden, but i digress.

The quality in the USA is higher because you pay for it, and as Chris has explained, it works. Morally, i feel that its a little outdated, although a by product of that seems to be service staff, really spreading the love for thier money, and i think that can only be a good thing. When i was in the USA, if my service was good, i certainly tipped for it, as there is no right or wrong way, just thier way, and the way here.

  #45  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:41 PM
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I seem to be in the minority because having experienced both systems, I think that the US system based around tips is far better than the Australian system. Australian service at restaurants falls far short of the quality of service in the USA, and it is because over there you HAVE to provide good customer service to guarantee your income.
I'll agree with that in so far as the service is better over there, in general, but there are some bad apples over there too, just as there are exemplary places here. But usually bad service or below par (or what's expected) service is a reflection of the establishment and how it's being run, in most cases. Some bosses are just out and out little Hitlers who make life miserable for all (including themselves) and others just don't care or are lax in their own attitudes. It rubs off on the employees. You get that everywhere, not just here. However, whilst paying tips for the customer may provide good service it doesn't necessarily mean that the workers are being treated with any respect or fairly. Just means the workers have to jump through extra hoops in order to make up their wages. If the tips were on top of already good wages, then there might be something to say for the system, but they're not and that's where it's not right....either for the worker or the customers of the establishment.
  #46  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Just means the workers have to jump through extra hoops in order to make up their wages. If the tips were on top of already good wages, then there might be something to say for the system, but they're not and that's where it's not right....either for the worker or the customers of the establishment.
That's the point I'm struggling to see made here Carl. They DON"T have to jump through any hoops - the tip is expected to be paid by the patrons before they walk in to the place, and in turn expected to be received by the worker. It's a set standard. It ISN'T negotiable, or paid only on a whim if the service is exceptional. It isn't. It's just that their wage is split and comes from two sources. The total is still a wage that they can and do live on. It isn't optional - which is why this thread started in the first place. By NOT paying the tip, it was tantamount to theft of the workers wage!
  #47  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:50 PM
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Absolutely Carl - she gets medical, dental, 401k, etc, etc. It ain't a bad deal really. It's just hard to quantify it without asker her directly, which I, being a gentleman, would not enquiries of. Our people over here in similar work don't get that.

By and by - transport, cars, rent, fuel, food and other basics are typically cheaper over there. Not across the board, but I found living in the USA on my Aussie salary pretty easy going for my five years there in New York and LA.
Sounds like she got a good deal as far as her workplace is concerned. But she still should've gotten a bit more than $12/hr. I've been in jobs very similar to hers in so far as you're the lackey (kitchenhand, cook etc) and gotten all that she did but my wages were nearly double hers. I've also been in jobs where like I said before, they weren't much chop. You're right about the cost of basics over there being cheaper than here...economies of scale (although quite a few here are just greedy so and so's)...but they make up for it in other areas.
  #48  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Sounds like she got a good deal as far as her workplace is concerned. But she still should've gotten a bit more than $12/hr. I've been in jobs very similar to hers in so far as you're the lackey (kitchenhand, cook etc) and gotten all that she did but my wages were nearly double hers. I've also been in jobs where like I said before, they weren't much chop. You're right about the cost of basics over there being cheaper than here...economies of scale (although quite a few here are just greedy so and so's)...but they make up for it in other areas.
That really, really depends where you are Carl. There is quite a disparity when it comes to standard wages across the continent.

Don't be a cook (and not get a tip to make it up) in Minnesota, for instance: http://books.mongabay.com/employment...r_35-2014.html

Quote:
Industry comparison
Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN earned 58% less than average for Cooks, restaurant in the United States.

Region/area/city comparison
Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN earned 52% less than the average worker in Rochester, MN.

State salary comparison
Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN earned 50% less than the average worker in Minnesota.

National salary comparison
Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN earned 47% less than the average worker in the United States.

Wage and salary details
More detailed employment information for Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN

Hourly wage data for Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN
Mean hourly wage: $10.05
Tenth (10th) percentile hourly wage: $6.72
Twenty-fifth (25th) percentile hourly wage: $7.91
Fiftieth (50th) percentile wage [median] hourly wage: $10.02
Seventy-fifth (75th) percentile hourly wage: $11.92
Ninetieth (90th) percentile hourly wage: $13.48



Salary figures for Cooks, restaurant in Rochester, MN
Mean annual salary: $20,890
Tenth (10th) percentile annual salary: $13,980
Twenty-fifth (25th) percentile annual salary: $16,460
Fiftieth (50th) percentile wage [median] annual salary: $20,840
Seventy-fifth (75th) percentile annual salary: $24,790
Ninetieth (90th) percentile annual salary: $28,040
And Duncan - I could NOT agree more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toryglenboy
I would say that the standard of service in the USA is MUCH higher than here in Oz, no scratch that, i dont want to upset my Aussie friends, and rightly so, so lets just say, the standard in the USA is SOOOOOOO much higher here than in Canberra, i am sick of not hearing the magic two words "please" and "thank you" anytime i go to Woden, but i digress.
Always, I would be referred to as "Sir", and be told "You're welcome" and "Come again" by restaurant staff over there.

Here? I can't even remember when a young food-industry worker thanked ME for going to their restaurant.
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:01 PM
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That's the point I'm struggling to see made here Carl. They DON"T have to jump through any hoops - the tip is expected to be paid by the patrons, and in turn expected to be received by the worker. It ISN'T negotiable or paid only if the service is exceptional. It isn't. It's just that their wage is split and comes from two sources. The total is still a wage that they can and do live on.
That's what I said....it's part of their work culture, but if you look at it from an outsiders PoV and try to look at it objectively, compared to many workers elsewhere, especially here, they are jumping through hoops in order to make a living. The idea of a tip is as a subsidy to workers for the full amount of their wages (or to do better if they can). What I'm saying is that they should be paid adequately enough by their employers a wage that allows them to not bother with tips...i.e. if they get paid, say, $200-$250 by their employer and the minimum wage is $300-$350, then why should they have to worry about the customer subsiding the extra amount by tipping, they should just be paid their wage and be done with it. If they get paid the full wage, and then someone decides to tip them, then that's extra and if it's for good service then more to them. But it's not really a very satisfactory way of earning a living, nor does it make for a steady income.
  #50  
Old 23-11-2009, 01:03 PM
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That really, really depends where you are Carl. There is quite a disparity when it comes to standard wages across the continent.

Don't be a cook (and not get a tip to make it up) in Minnesota, for instance: http://books.mongabay.com/employment...r_35-2014.html



And Duncan - I could NOT agree more.


Always, I would be referred to as "Sir", and be told "You're welcome" and "Come again" by restaurant staff over there.

Here? I can't even remember when a young food-industry worker thanked ME for going to their restaurant.
Remind me not to even bother looking for work in Rochester!!!!
  #51  
Old 23-11-2009, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by toryglen-boy View Post
TBH mate, its horses for courses, swings and roundabouts. I would say that the standard of service in the USA is MUCH higher than here in Oz, no scratch that, i dont want to upset my Aussie friends, and rightly so, so lets just say, the standard in the USA is SOOOOOOO much higher here than in Canberra, i am sick of not hearing the magic two words "please" and "thank you" anytime i go to Woden, but i digress.

The quality in the USA is higher because you pay for it, and as Chris has explained, it works. Morally, i feel that its a little outdated, although a by product of that seems to be service staff, really spreading the love for thier money, and i think that can only be a good thing. When i was in the USA, if my service was good, i certainly tipped for it, as there is no right or wrong way, just thier way, and the way here.

I suppose it must come down to what one expects in their service. I'm in Canberra too and the service I get here by far exceeds anything I got in America. But remember I was there in 97, so I don't know if much has changed since then. Also I went all over the East coast (perhaps you were on the West coast). And as for quality, my experiance was the exact opposite. The quality here from your supermarkets to your coffee houses to your retaurants to your takeouts to your McDonalds, just so much better here. I dont agree with your assessment that the system is "morally ... a little outdated". Bit too heavy on the use of euthemism for me.
  #52  
Old 23-11-2009, 01:08 PM
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...why should they have to worry about the customer subsiding the extra amount by tipping, they should just be paid their wage and be done with it.
Argghhhh!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!! That's my point! They DON'T have to worry. It's always paid! It's not as though they'll miss out! It's not an "extra" amount - it's just part of the total bill! The bill isn't settled and the tip paid separately - it's added to the payable total on the bill. You'll see it there as "Gratuity (@12%: $16)" on its own line in the bill. This is split off by the owner and given to the worker when they receive their normal pay at the end of the period. They don't sit there "begging" for it! LOL!!!!!

If the customer then decides to add more to that - they'll leave a real "gratuity" on the table for the worker if they were exceptional. They then get the percentage of the paid bill in their wages at the end of the week - plus they get to keep the extra cash they were left without declaring it to anyone.
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:10 PM
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TBH mate, its horses for courses, swings and roundabouts. I would say that the standard of service in the USA is MUCH higher than here in Oz, no scratch that, i dont want to upset my Aussie friends, and rightly so, so lets just say, the standard in the USA is SOOOOOOO much higher here than in Canberra, i am sick of not hearing the magic two words "please" and "thank you" anytime i go to Woden, but i digress.

The quality in the USA is higher because you pay for it, and as Chris has explained, it works. Morally, i feel that its a little outdated, although a by product of that seems to be service staff, really spreading the love for thier money, and i think that can only be a good thing. When i was in the USA, if my service was good, i certainly tipped for it, as there is no right or wrong way, just thier way, and the way here.

Yeah but if you're on the roundabout for too long, you'll throw up your food

I must admit that the service out here in many places has a lot left to be desired, but that's part of the work culture and ethic that seems to pervade many places...just give the customer the bare essentials and dispense with too many pleasantries. Doesn't make for a good dining experience. Yet I've been to places where they almost lay down the red carpet for you. Like I said before, it all depends on how the business is being run and the personal ethics of those that run them.

Can you imagine complaining at Gordon Ramsey's places...he'd politely listen to your complaint, ask you to maybe come and have a talk with the chef, then divert you hurriedly out the back and beat ten grades of pain out of you!!!!
  #54  
Old 23-11-2009, 01:23 PM
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Argghhhh!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!! That's my point! They DON'T have to worry. It's always paid! It's not as though they'll miss out! It's not an "extra" amount - it's just part of the total bill! The bill isn't settled and the tip paid separately - it's added to the payable total on the bill. You'll see it there as "Gratuity (@12%: $16)" on its own line in the bill. This is split off by the owner and given to the worker when they receive their normal pay at the end of the period. They don't sit there "begging" for it! LOL!!!!!

If the customer then decides to add more to that - they'll leave a real "gratuity" on the table for the worker if they were exceptional. They then get the percentage of the paid bill in their wages at the end of the week - plus they get to keep the extra cash they were left without declaring it to anyone.
I still find it objectionable that, as a customer, that I should be made to pay a "gratuity" as part of my final bill, in order to subsidise a worker's wages when the employer is too stingy to make up the difference themselves. Why not just make the meals dearer, then pay the workers the full deal, it achieves much the same outcome. If I'm going to tip anyone, it would be on an individual, personal basis, where I thought the service they provided was worth it, not as a prop up for some establishment's wage bill. If the tips are being paid to the workers over and above their stipulated minimum wage, then that's fine, but not to prop up a poorly paid worker who isn't being paid the minimum wage.

In that case, the business should be dragged through arbitration and made to pay the proper wage to its employees.
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:31 PM
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I suppose it must come down to what one expects in their service. I'm in Canberra too and the service I get here by far exceeds anything I got in America. But remember I was there in 97, so I don't know if much has changed since then. Also I went all over the East coast (perhaps you were on the West coast). And as for quality, my experiance was the exact opposite. The quality here from your supermarkets to your coffee houses to your retaurants to your takeouts to your McDonalds, just so much better here. I dont agree with your assessment that the system is "morally ... a little outdated". Bit too heavy on the use of euthemism for me.
Actually, i was in the states in 97, thats when i was there working, and i was East coast to, Maybe i was a little harsh. The service in Sydney i found to be very good, the service in Melbourne was first class, and people couldnt do enough for you, but yet again, Canberra is utter devoid of any good retail/dining experience, but then again, god knows why this place was made capital, when you have the rest of utopia to choose from, but i digress.

Can you expand on your last comment, about my heavy use of euthemism? i would be very interested to read your findings.

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Old 23-11-2009, 01:35 PM
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I think that Americans are just used to that nomenclature - and that's all it is. I think that it has persisted through the decades for another reason - which has not yet been mentioned.

People in America LIKE to see that part of the money paid to the restaurant actually goes to the worker - and therefore it is declared as a separate item - i.e. a "tip". This gives most a sense of gratitude. Most Americans would think of a system where the money going directly to the waitress is not declared separately (and therefore safely separate from what goes to the owner) as abhorrent.

Total meal prices would be the same if the "tip" was dropped, it would mean that the owner would have to up the price of the billed meal to pay the worker in a different fashion - i.e. directly. It would make no difference to what the worker earned in total - the difference would come from the owner rather than the patron, that's all. I'd be paying from my right pocket instead of my left. Big deal!
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:50 PM
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mate, personally I have lost count of how many times you have explained this in full, and i certainly get it, and agree with the system.

it works!


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I think that Americans are just used to that nomenclature - and that's all it is. I think that it has persisted through the decades for another reason - which has not yet been mentioned.

People in America LIKE to see that part of the money paid to the restaurant actually goes to the worker - and therefore it is declared as a separate item - i.e. a "tip". This gives most a sense of gratitude. Most Americans would think of a system where the money going directly to the waitress is not declared separately (and therefore safely separate from what goes to the owner) as abhorrent.

Total meal prices would be the same if the "tip" was dropped, it would mean that the owner would have to up the price of the billed meal to pay the worker in a different fashion - i.e. directly. It would make no difference to what the worker earned in total - the difference would come from the owner rather than the patron, that's all. I'd be paying from my right pocket instead of my left. Big deal!
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:51 PM
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Canberra is utter devoid of any good retail/dining experience, but then again, god knows why this place was made capital
Canberra is utterly devoid of a great many things and quite a few people have asked the same question
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:54 PM
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mate, personally I have lost count of how many times you have explained this in full, and i certainly get it, and agree with the system.

it works!
It's hard work Duncan! LOL!!

Besides - with the tip component emblazoned on the bill - I defy a crook owner to try and stick it to the waitress by not paying them their entitlement. I believe that the IRS has a particular penchant for these sort of people....
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Old 23-11-2009, 01:56 PM
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Canberra is utter devoid of any good retail/dining experience, but then again, god knows why this place was made capital, when you have the rest of utopia to choose from, but i digress.
When I lived there in '85-'87 Manuka or Kingston were the places to go. There were a couple of decent restaurants to choose from. Not the case any more?
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