Caution to Travellers US couple jailed for not tipping

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

I worked in restaurants and bars throughout high-school and uni. I even worked for the Roux brothers and Nico Lanidis. I never got more than about $8 an hour, but with tips it could be reasonably lucrative for a student or even a single person. During the "Season" you could make some good dosh. But come winter.....nada. Thank goodness you were working in a restaurant or you'd starve!
Restauranting is a tight margin business, even if you're Gordon Ramsay, and owners factor tips into the wages paid to floor staff. But that is no reason a customer should be forced to tip. It defeats the whole object.

I find the story a tad suspicious as I can't imagine a restaurant going after a customer for a tip let alone having them arrested or a cop arresting them. Who would risk eating there again? They'd be far more likely to sack the FSU for gross misconduct. Or I would anyway!
But this was the states so perhaps things have changed a tad in 25 years and its now acceptable to be harrassed by FSUs.

The one thing I do notice about FSUs here is their propensity to ignore you once you've got your grub. I don't think there's anywhere else I can remember where I've had to wait so long to be noticed, have a plate cleared or asked if I want a second drink.
Even if, or especially if, its hugely busy, being acknowledged and served, makes all the difference in the world.
THAT is what you're tipping for!
PJH

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

When I lived there in '85-'87 Manuka or Kingston were the places to go. There were a couple of decent restaurants to choose from. Not the case any more?

Yeah, Manuka and Kingston are still "ok" if you can stand the people who still think BMW's are prestigeous, and the young adults where daddy paid for everything. its a very concieted, contrived place, like the west end of London, or Glasgow in miniature,

But your right, there are some very good Asian retaurants there.

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by toryglen-boy

Yeah, Manuka and Kingston are still "ok" if you can stand the people who still think BMW's are prestigeous, and the young adults where daddy paid for everything. its a very concieted, contrived place, like the west end of London, or Glasgow in miniature

LOL! Nothing's changed!

[asimov (John)]

Well I'm glad all the anti American posts have gone - Having lived in the US for a year (AND loved it, AND the people) I am not tolerant of 'American bashing'

As to the story itself - Yeah it surprises me not.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Well, no matter which way you like to cut it, it's still an objectionable practice that has been phased out in many places and quite frankly if the workers in the US are silly enough to allow themselves to be underpaid to begin with and have to rely on tips to supplement their incomes, then they only get what they deserve. If others get it over and above their normal (full) wages then good on them. But I shouldn't see why the customer be made to help pay for workers wages just because the scumbag employers won't pay the minimum wages to them, but would rather pocket the profits and expect you to "feel grateful" about eating in the establishment and fork over more money. I'd rather pay for a dearer meal and know that the workers were being properly compensated for their work than eat out at a place who expected me to supplement someone's wages with extra money add to the bill (food + tip). I'd rather go somewhere else, or cook it myself!!!.

[TrevorW]

Question:

1. Pie Chips and Coke for lunch at a takeaway deli in Australia $10 average

2. Places like Ponderosa, Sizzlers, Western Sizzling etc do a fixed price for all you can eat. Last years prices were, all u can eat at breakfast for $4.99, lunch $7.99 and evening meal $9.99 in the US

18% gratuity for lunch $1.44, total lunch for a sit down all you can eat $9.76

Well I'm eating in the US and paying the gratuity makes gastronomic sense to me

[renormalised (Carl)]

young adults where daddy paid for everything

Daddy= politicians and/or public servants??

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Question:

1. Pie Chips and Coke for lunch at a takeaway deli in Australia $10 average

2. Places like Ponderosa, Sizzlers, Western Sizzling etc do a fixed price for all you can eat. Last years prices were, all u can eat at breakfast for $4.99, lunch $7.99 and evening meal $9.99 in the US

18% gratuity for lunch $1.44, total lunch for a sit down all you can eat $9.76

Well I'm eating in the US and paying the gratuity makes gastrnomic sense to me

Makes sense as far as your hip pocket nerve goes...things are cheaper over there (and most places here are ripoff merchants), but that doesn't make tipping right.

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by toryglen-boy

mate, personally I have lost count of how many times you have explained this in full, and i certainly get it, and agree with the system.

it works!

Duncan,

I actually think that the problems Chris has been having explaining it may have something to do with the inherent difficulty of trying to get across the notion that a square peg fits nicely into a round hole. The system is convoluted and misnamed (a gratuity indeed) precisely because its been fiddled over the years so that the employer could effectively snaffle the benefit of the gratuities intended for the employee, by paying less in wages (and below the minimum wage). No doubt that may work for you but it does not mean that it works.

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Daddy= politicians and/or public servants??

couldnt tell you! but that end of town is full of the Nouveau Rich, who wouldnt know the value of a $ if it bit them on the nose

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by asimov

Well I'm glad all the anti American posts have gone - Having lived in the US for a year (AND loved it, AND the people) I am not tolerant of 'American bashing'

As to the story itself - Yeah it surprises me not.

I agree, I have many American friends and they are some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. But what some of us are critical of here is the system of supplementing wages and not paying the right (minimum) wage to begin with.

It's good the IRS keeps a close eye on this, otherwise it'd be a free for all as far as many businesses are concerned.

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Duncan,

I actually think that the problems Chris has been having explaining it may have something to do with the inherent difficulty of trying to get across the notion that a square peg fits nicely into a round hole. The system is conveluted and misnamed (a gratuity indeed) precisely because its been fiddled over the years so that the employer could effectively snaffle the benefit of the gratuities intended for the employee, by paying less in wages (and below the minimum wage). No doubt that may work for you but it does not mean that it works.

i never said it worked for me, or that i was in 100% accordance, merely that i understood the principal

can you elaborate on an earlier post of mine, something about the heavy use of euthemism?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by toryglen-boy

couldnt tell you! but that end of town is full of the Nouveau Rich, who wouldnt know the value of a $ if it bit them on the nose

Well, it's as they say, it takes more than one clown to make a circus

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

I got no problems with americans. I dont think I've ever met an american I didnt like. Nice people. Not sure what thats got to do with anything.

[Gallifreyboy]

Originally Posted by toryglen-boy

i the heavy use of euthemism?

Would that be euphemism or perhaps euthanasia.... which this thread seems to be in need of......

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by Gallifreyboy

Would that be euphemism or perhaps euthanasia.... which this thread seems to be in need of......

you called it, thats why i pressed the issue

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

I shouldn't see why the customer be made to help pay for workers wages just because the scumbag employers won't pay the minimum wages to them, but would rather pocket the profits and expect you to "feel grateful" about eating in the establishment and fork over more money.

The wage structure is based on an agreed structure between "bosses" and "workers" like an award in essence - but is unfortunately still called a "tip". It is not a case of the customer "helping to pay" the worker. Get that out of your head! There is no subterfuge here on behalf of the owners. It's a known structure that all agree to work with.

When you go into business in the States - like running a restaurant for instance - you know and understand that workers, in general, are partly paid in the form of a tip - leaving you (the owner) to call the rest of their pay a "salary" or "wage". They (the workers) are never getting any less than if they were paid in a single-tier manner like we are here. It's just the way it is done - and it is not "less right" that our system is here. The worker is NOT at a disadvantage because of it, which is what you are still, undyingly, trying to maintain. Employers are not scumbags - they all (repeat: ALL) satisfy the workers pay in the same manner - not just some of them. It's a system - not a cover-up. Paying the tip is MANDATORY on behalf of the customer - not optional. Therefore - how could the owner splitting this component off from the bill be seen as anything other than kosher?

If you look for employment in this sector in the States - you also understand that part of your wages are coming in the form of "tips" - but not to worry as they are guaranteed and non-negotiable. You expect the $20 per hour you agreed to work for to be split between what we call "wage" and "tips". You still get your $20 per hour!! You are not relying on anyone's compassion or good will to earn your full $20 - especially the owners.

It isn't the old days - where the tipping system was originally introduced to offset poor pay and working conditions. This ISN'T the case any more - it's only carried on in name and form. The wages a worker gets are all guaranteed!!! If you are one of the "scumbag" employers you keep referring to - you'd better watch out of you fiddle the books and rip off your employees - the Internal Revenue Service will drag you through hell for it. I think that I've mentioned this already.

Because we aren't used to this system here in Australia - I think that most of you are confused, still, by the term "tip". It isn't, in the USA, just what you leave on the table if you think your service was provided excellently, it is a standard part of the bill. They should probably change that pay component's name to "Service Charge" - which would alleviate the confusion. This whole Service Charge goes directly to the worker.

[CoombellKid]

A little understanding on how things work over there might help.
Waiterpersons pay tax on the tips they get. The government can never
know just how much the waiterperson gets through tips. So the total
take in the til is divided by the waiter staff and they pay tax
accordingly. So if you fail tip tip on you $30.00 meal the waiter person
will still be abliged to pay tax on a tip they never got. I'd get pissed to
because you might as well have taken the money out of there pockets.

It always annoys me when you hear waiter staff here whinge about not
getting tip. They can start whinging when they start getting taxed on it.

Cheers,CS

[CoombellKid]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

Even including tips, most average restaurant meals that you buy in the States are cheaper than they would be here. I don't see the problem...

Not only that, but have seen how much they stack on the plate in some
resturants in the US. You will see why they have an obesity problem. I
guess because the boss pays naf all they can load your plate up.

Cheers,CS

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Chris, We all get what you are saying!

However, dare I say you miss a point?

The one benefit I see for the shop owner, and the rip off of the worker as compared to the Aussie is this:

What if no customers come in that day?

The tip which makes up the "guaranteed" portion you talk of is not forthcoming I presume.
Where as in australia, the waiter gets paid when working even if no customers are served today.

I can see good and bad in both systems.

Unfortunately, it appears to me that most respondents to this thread fail to see the issue from any other point of view other than their own.
(see my signature).

As A post script, and I am surprised no one has done sufficient research to make this point, (to get back on topic):
The general consensus was that the police officer was acting outside the law (ignorantly) and that the charges would not stand up in a court of law. seems gratuity still means gratuity after all.