Baader filters beware....

[garymck (Gary)]

Hi,

after purchasing a complete set of Baader imaging filters I found when unpacking them and fitting them to my filter wheel that the blue filter had scratches on the non coated side of the filter (see pic). The suppliers reply is copied below:

"many thanks for your patience! I got the answer from Baader and they told us, that this small scratch (Baader think its more a grease spot which can be cleaned)have no effect to the image. Very small spots can be easily eliminated by a flatfield image. Baader makes only an exchange of the filter if we can give them a proof, that the filter makes problems with the image, even if the flatfield is subtract from the lights."

I other words, if you buy a new Baader filter, and it is scratched, Baader will not replace the filter unless you can prove that image calibration can't fix it.

I think that this is a rubbish policy new filters should not have scratches!!!

BTW I tried cleaning the "grease spot" to no effect - tried anything from windex to acetone.

cheers
Gary

[peter_4059 (Peter)]

Who was the supplier?

[garymck (Gary)]

https://www.teleskop-express.de

cheers
Gary

[g__day (Matthew)]

If you bought it using an Australian Credit card you are protected under law in the Credit Card act - for at least three scenarios ranging from 90 - 120 days of the initial transaction:

1. Goods weren't ordered by you (identity theft)
2. Good delivered weren't those ordered (wrong shipment)
3. Good were not deemed by you fit for use (dead on arrival or damaged goods delivered)

(there is also a goods didn't arrive protection)...

Your situation sounds like the third case. The dispute process is to write to the vendor saying basically brand new good arrived damaged - and request an exchange or refund. Once they refuse this (or at the same time to speed things up) contact the Card Issuer - as say the words "I wish to repudiate the transaction and issue a chargeback because the goods have arrived damaged and not fit for use". They will send you a form to fill it - which basically is about going thru the ask the vendor for satisfaction. Once the vendor refuses you say to the Card issuer - please repudiate this payment and act on my behalf.

By Law - the card issuer must review your request within 2 days I believe and if its not frivalent act on it on your behalf. Then the issue falls between the merchant (Baader) and your Bank or Credit Card company (Visa, Mastercard, AMEX). The Bank or the Issuer should credit you card back the funds and then start a financial recovery against the Vendor. They simply take the money back from the vendor (like a bounced cheque) and any dispute is between the vendor and th elarge bank - not you.

Businesses that deal with credit cards know and accept the risk of legitimate charge-backs that the banks can issue. In Australia its written into both the Banking Act and separately into the credit card act. It's not an option it is enforced law.

This gives the consumer huge safety against fraud or faulty goods. A scratched lens or filter I wouldn't expect to sell well - so you immediately have suffered economic loss and its performance is at least affected that way.

These protection only apply to credit card (and charge card?) transactions - not cash, cheque or direct bank deposit. Even if the companies goes bust and fails to deliver the goods after taking your money - the Bank or card issuer must return your funds before any other creditor or administrator to the failed business gets paid - it's that much protection.

General just saying to an unreasonable vendor I am protected under Australian Credit Card law and unless you give me the goods as requested, fit for use and undamaged I have the legal right to instruct the bank or credit card firm to issue a charge-back on you and repudiate the payment - can change their behaviour immensely! It doesn't matter if the vendor is overseas - the key determinate of what happens next is did you buy this using an Australian credit card within the last 90 days?

http://www.nab.com.au/personal/credi...sked-questions

http://www.westpac.com.au/personal-b...g-transaction/

[LewisM]

I think the problem lies with Baader stating that the filter IS fit for use, and that flat fielding will remove it. So, if Baader claims the filter IS fit and within design parameters, I don't think any bank chargeback is going to have much affect on the outcome. Perhaps they have a caveat or statute of limitations?

I would contact Baader DIRECTLY via www.baader-planetrium.com, stating your dissatisfaction with the apparent answer you received from them via Teleskop Express representation. Take it from there, and perhaps drop the charge-back bomb.

[g__day (Matthew)]

It doesn't matter what Baader claim, Toyota could state that a car with scratches could still be driven well - that isn't the issue that you can partially process out a quality defect - it isn't supposed to have such a defect unless it is directly advertised to come with such defects!

In law the common man's understanding will take precedence over a recalcitrant vendor - and any Bank will understand a scratched brand new product fails the fit for use test plain and simple!

[DJT (David)]

Originally Posted by g__day

If you bought it using an Australian Credit card you are protected under law in the Credit Card act - for at least three scenarios ranging from 90 - 120 days of the initial transaction:

1. Goods weren't ordered by you (identity theft)
2. Good delivered weren't those ordered (wrong shipment)
3. Good were not deemed by you fit for use (dead on arrival or damaged goods delivered)

(there is also a goods didn't arrive protection)...

Your situation sounds like the third case. The dispute process is to write to the vendor saying basically brand new good arrived damaged - and request an exchange or refund. Once they refuse this (or at the same time to speed things up) contact the Card Issuer - as say the words "I wish to repudiate the transaction and issue a chargeback because the goods have arrived damaged and not fit for use". They will send you a form to fill it - which basically is about going thru the ask the vendor for satisfaction. Once the vendor refuses you say to the Card issuer - please repudiate this payment and act on my behalf.

By Law - the card issuer must review your request within 2 days I believe and if its not frivalent act on it on your behalf. Then the issue falls between the merchant (Baader) and your Bank or Credit Card company (Visa, Mastercard, AMEX). The Bank or the Issuer should credit you card back the funds and then start a financial recovery against the Vendor. They simply take the money back from the vendor (like a bounced cheque) and any dispute is between the vendor and th elarge bank - not you.

Businesses that deal with credit cards know and accept the risk of legitimate charge-backs that the banks can issue. In Australia its written into both the Banking Act and separately into the credit card act. It's not an option it is enforced law.

This gives the consumer huge safety against fraud or faulty goods. A scratched lens or filter I wouldn't expect to sell well - so you immediately have suffered economic loss and its performance is at least affected that way.

These protection only apply to credit card (and charge card?) transactions - not cash, cheque or direct bank deposit. Even if the companies goes bust and fails to deliver the goods after taking your money - the Bank or card issuer must return your funds before any other creditor or administrator to the failed business gets paid - it's that much protection.

General just saying to an unreasonable vendor I am protected under Australian Credit Card law and unless you give me the goods as requested, fit for use and undamaged I have the legal right to instruct the bank or credit card firm to issue a charge-back on you and repudiate the payment - can change their behaviour immensely! It doesn't matter if the vendor is overseas - the key determinate of what happens next is did you buy this using an Australian credit card within the last 90 days?

http://www.nab.com.au/personal/credi...sked-questions

http://www.westpac.com.au/personal-b...g-transaction/

Great info. Thanks for putting up this detailed response.

[clive milne]

I also have had issues with Baader filters purchased through telescop express.

The dispute resolution process was neither professional nor fast..... but they did do the right thing. eventually .

My advise is to detach yourself emotionally from the outcome, document everything (photo's) and stick to your guns (pardon the cliche)

This will take 3 months.


best,
c

[clive milne]

And as far as the cop out... 'will have no impact on the image'
They do not have enough information regarding the specifics of the application to make that call.... so you can tell them to inflate a goat.

[clive milne]

Send them this.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hd8XI42i2M

[garymck (Gary)]

Hi This is the full reply that Baader made - don't read German so google translate also attached

Just realised I paid through Paypal, so the dispute process is much easier...

Gary


Diese "Kratzer" sind mikroskopisch klein - und sehen eher wie Fettspuren aus. Hat der Kunde schon mal geputzt?
Im Übrigen ist die Annahme, dass diese kosmetische Fehlstelle in der Bildgewinnung Probleme macht nicht korrekt.
An dieser Stelle wird evtl WENIGER Licht durchkommen als überall sonst.
In jedem Fall entspricht die Grösse dieser Fehlstelle der Spezifikation die wir für Filter zulassen (gem. einer Zeiss-Norm für Astro-Optik)
Ehe ein neues Filter versandt wird verlangen wir, dass der Kunde anhand von Astro-Aufnahmen versucht, eine Auswirkung dieser Stelle auf dem Filter in seinen Aufnahmen zu dokumentieren.
Die Wirkung ist ähnlich wie bei einem Staubkorn auf den Chip - oder der dramatisch viel grösseren Anzahl von kleinsten und grösseren Verschmutzungen die sich unweigerlich auf dem Deckglas
seiner Kamera und natürlich auf den Filtern ansammeln.
Alle diese Effekte müssen in jedem Fall durch flatfielding aus dem Bild entfernt werden - und genauso werden auch diese ausschliesslich kosmetisch beeinträchtigenden Kritzchen aus den Biddaten
herausgerechnet.

his "scratches" are microscopic - and look more like fat tracks. If the customer has ever cleaned?
Incidentally, the assumption that this cosmetic defect in the imaging problems does not work correctly.
At this point, possibly less light to get through than anywhere else.
In any case, the size of said defect of the specification that we allow for filter (acc. To a Zeiss standard for Astro-Optics)
Before a new filter is sent, we demand that the customer tries on the basis of astronomical photographs to document an effect of this point on the filter in his recordings.
The effect is similar to a speck of dust on the chip - or dramatically much larger number of smallest and large dirt which inevitably on the cover glass
his camera and naturally accumulate on the filters.
All these effects need to be removed from the picture in any case by flat fielding - and just be this exclusively cosmetically debilitating Kritzchen from Biddaten
eliminated.

[codemonkey (Lee)]

Wow, these guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, are they? Seems to me that to survive in such a niche industry you really need to ensure your reputation is positive. This post has ensured that I don't buy any more Baader filters.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Have you tried to image with it? If it does affect your subs then document it as they've asked and send it back for a replacement. If it doesn't then you're good to go.

[gregbradley]

Its a strange looking photo of the filter. Why does the filter surface look wavy?

I had a Baader 7n Ha filter that used to give me salt and pepper type artifacts. I began to wonder if it was something to do with my processing.

Then I switched to Astrodon and no more salt and pepper so I concluded the filter had defects.

I had a set of LRGB 50mm square Baaders and they were all in good condition. They weren't parfocal as advertised nor were they close to being 1:1:1 in weights when colour combining. Astrodons are on both counts.

So Astrodon's may be pricey but you get what you pay for and they are still the market leaders in quality as far as my experience goes.

US companies also have way better after sales service than European companies as a bit of a generality. Europe is still learning being nice to the customer I think. Its not really their culture yet whereas USA the customer is always looked after and they often go out of their way to make the customer happy. Another reason the USA is the super power.

Greg.

[garymck (Gary)]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Its a strange looking photo of the filter. Why does the filter surface look wavy?
Greg.

Only looks wavy - the filter was resting on special tissue paper that I use to clean my microscope lenses....

Gary

[gregbradley]

I see. Are these scratches in the surface? If they are that is really a bad defect. I have never bought any filters with scratches on them.

Greg.

[rustigsmed (Russell)]

after every more recent TS purchase I have had they have sent out notification a few days after receiving your package that you are able to change your mind within a certain timeframe (two or 3 weeks I think) as per euro union law.

[Garbz (Chris)]

This response is quite ignorant from them. Effectively they are saying that microscopic scratches are within tolerances for their products unless you can prove that they cause issue.

However the really surprisingly ignorant response is the one about field flattening. A scratch is not an obstruction in the lens. A scratch will actually cause refraction of light. The effect scratches have on images will be more like ghosting, internal reflections, or other strange streaks around high contrast portions of an image. This is not something which can ever be corrected via a flat field image as the characteristics are dependent on the location and contrast of the light source. I.e. you may find it doesn't cause a problem at all when doing nebula but it may cause you lots of grief when doing open clusters.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

.........

US companies also have way better after sales service than European companies as a bit of a generality. Europe is still learning being nice to the customer I think. Its not really their culture yet whereas USA the customer is always looked after and they often go out of their way to make the customer happy. Another reason the USA is the super power.

Greg.

Clearly you've not dealt with Microsoft very much

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Clearly you've not dealt with Microsoft very much

LOL, point taken!

Greg.