Electric car range.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by AndyG

https://www.harley-davidson.com/au/e.../electric.html

Unfortunately, it's apparently plagued by design problems. Furthermore, the styling I can't see being attractive to a customer who'd want a Harley anyway. Though having never owned, nor wanted a Harley I'm not qualified on that front. Any Harley owners/fans wish to comment?

Not much comment regarding Cops and exhaust noise, aside to say I've been pulled over many times in the past on my various 600 sports bikes with straight throughs... I just told them "I haven't been <<merged into>> by car drivers since I fitted it, and I'm happy to be alive now to hear what Mr Policeman has to say". They shrugged and sent me on my way.

The Harley Livewire bike, which is available now, has not been received well by the Harley fans, for one big reason, it does not sound like a Harley. It has long been said by Harley owners that "Loud means Safe"! For some owners the louder the better. I think we can all agree that a Harley bike usually makes its presence known. The Livewire is silent, and for that reason, likely deadly.

I recall that in the EU electric cars are now required to generate noise, so that pedestrians can hear them (assuming you can hear in the first place). At least with a Harley, even if you can't hear it, you might be able to feel the shock waves.

My recently acquired European car is always beeping at me about something, it has lane keeping cameras, blind spot alerts, etc, but I have been wondering about how much mass it takes to set off the beep - would a bike set it off?

[JohnF (John)]

Originally Posted by julianh72

Diesel and petrol fire fumes are highly toxic too - SOx, NOx, hydrogen cyanide, formaldehyde, ...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...tbl2_240821843
And let's not forget all the highly toxic fumes from the burning plastics used in modern vehicles.

Do you let petrol and diesel car / truck fires burn, and stand by and watch the inhabitants die?

Problem is the Electric Batteries if burnt are 100% fatal to any firefighter that does breathe those fumes. In big cities the Fire And Rescue truck all carry breathing gear. But Bush Fire Brigades do not. narest brigade with breathing gear to us is 20 minutes away. And we would be sent to any local car accident first. Then need to call for backup with breathing gear.

Hence my point is electric cars may be okay for in the city, but not in the country rural areas.

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by JohnF

Problem is the Electric Batteries if burnt are 100% fatal to any firefighter that does breathe those fumes. In big cities the Fire And Rescue truck all carry breathing gear. But Bush Fire Brigades do not. narest brigade with breathing gear to us is 20 minutes away. And we would be sent to any local car accident first. Then need to call for backup with breathing gear.

Hence my point is electric cars may be okay for in the city, but not in the country rural areas.

Maybe not yet,but like most innovations,they will surely be in the bush very very soon.
As the range and charging facilities inprove, as sure as eggs they will be here.
Quite a few major manufactuers are bring out 4x4 electric vehicles,including utes and SUV's in the next few years VW is a name that comes to mind.
It is up to the rural brigades to ask or obtain them.

I remember only within the last 10 years the Rural Fire Brigade in Kenilworth and Conondale had 30 year old vehicles,when we had a major bush fire and they were found wanting,then in no time they have a thouroghly modern set of vehicles

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by glend

.......... the EU electric cars are now required to generate noise, so that pedestrians can hear them ...........

I guess with death and taxes, and now asinine legislation is also a fact of life.

What ever happened to the concept of "watch where you are going" ??

Laws that would fine the idiots, who step into traffic with their noses glued to their smartphones and headphones blaring, in a manner similar to jaywalking, might also be useful.

Instead they make slow moving EV's go beep-beep

P.S.

Some EV facts, not opinions below....

My EV (Tesla) has a range of 560km....the long range model 620km
It actually has the best primary and secondary safety rating for any vehicle crash tested by the NTSB.
There is also a first-responder cut point (clearly marked under the bonnet) to disable the battery
Any car that is burning gives off toxins.
A fuel-air mix is far more flammable than a caged lithium cell.

[Tandum (Robin)]

Before retirement I did computers for several yellow cab depots. One ran toyota prius only. Talk about a dangerous place walking in/out of that place. Could not hear them at all. Almost got clipped a few times.

[Ukastronomer (Jeremy)]

I had to laugh yesterday when there was a full program about electric cars IN DETAIL ... what you are NOT told................ yet.

5 year battery and battery component life for example and even the best is only guaranteed 7 years.

So as long as you don't plan to SELL it used ever, or are willing to take $50 for it after 5 years fine

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

I guess with death and taxes, and now asinine legislation is also a fact of life.

What ever happened to the concept of "watch where you are going" ??

Laws that would fine the idiots, who step into traffic with their noses glued to their smartphones and headphones blaring, in a manner similar to jaywalking, might also be useful.

Instead they make slow moving EV's go beep-beep

P.S.

Some EV facts, not opinions below....

My EV (Tesla) has a range of 560km....the long range model 620km
It actually has the best primary and secondary safety rating for any vehicle crash tested by the NTSB.
There is also a first-responder cut point (clearly marked under the bonnet) to disable the battery
Any car that is burning gives off toxins.
A fuel-air mix is far more flammable than a caged lithium cell.

NO they are NOT, facts please

It is so BLIND and disabled people can hear them, being Autistic I am well aware of this and have seen many incorrect statements people are reacting to.

If you were BLIND you and a guide dog rely on hearing, and in case anyone posts silly comments about beeping etc........................ think

We are not all 100% perfect vision or able bodied

Post full/accurate quotes.

"The law has been welcomed by campaigners. James White, at the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, is worried about the risk the cars pose to people with sight loss. He said that for people who struggle to see them, the vehicles should indicate their presence in other ways."


....

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by Ukastronomer

I had to laugh yesterday when there was a full program about electric cars IN DETAIL ... what you are NOT told................ yet.

5 year battery and battery component life for example and even the best is only guaranteed 7 years.

So as long as you don't plan to SELL it used ever, or are willing to take $50 for it after 5 years fine

Hi Jeremy that would mainly apply to the battery would it not? And savings in fuel made over the 5 years would surely put that loss in perspective. The rest of the vehicle may well be subject to less depreciation than for a conventional car, which would mitigate this even further.

Make no mistake though, a new car electric or not, is one of the worst investments you can make if value retention is important to you, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[xelasnave]

I do like the idea of less traffic noise.
Probably city folk don't notice but the din is always there.
The quieter the better.
As to worrying about blind folk I expect a solution other than making all cars noisy will be invented.
I am impressed with the range now achievable.

Battery life ... We can only wait and see.
Alex

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by Ukastronomer

I had to laugh yesterday when there was a full program about electric cars IN DETAIL ... what you are NOT told................ yet.

5 year battery and battery component life for example and even the best is only guaranteed 7 years.

So as long as you don't plan to SELL it used ever, or are willing to take $50 for it after 5 years fine

That's out of date information - most (all?) current model EVs made by "mainstream" manufacturers provide at least 8 years warranty on the battery, if not 10 - in fact, it's a legal requirement in the USA, so any manufacturer who wants to sell in the USA (i.e. all of them) has to provide an 8 year battery warranty as a minimum.
https://www.myev.com/research/buyers...cle-warranties

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Battery technology is always on the improve, the use of thin graphite materials etc will revolutionize battery technology in the next few years. I'm really getting tired of Luddites who can't see past their noses. If we all thought the same way then there would not be any technological change, just look at what Tesla has done in 10 years, the future has not been written but there are people already there trying to rip out the pages. Get over it!

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by julianh72

That's out of date information - most (all?) current model EVs made by "mainstream" manufacturers provide at least 8 years warranty on the battery, if not 10 - in fact, it's a legal requirement in the USA, so any manufacturer who wants to sell in the USA (i.e. all of them) has to provide an 8 year battery warranty as a minimum.
https://www.myev.com/research/buyers...cle-warranties

The way people use and charge Li-ion batteries has a great deal of influence on how long they last. It is easy to double the number of charge cycles possible simply by under charging the bank cells. Fully charging damages the membrane, but keeping the individual cells at about 90% of capacity will double the lifespan. It is easy to see that some owners will have to replace their batteries before the end of the warranty period (The wording if the warranty will be interesting). Folks that come home from work and plug their car in to charge as a matter of habit, will be much worse off than those that only charge when they need it. And charging equipment needs to be able to be set for longevity charging instead of max voltage.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Ukastronomer

.........NO they are NOT, facts please

It is so BLIND and disabled people can hear them, being Autistic I am well aware of this and have seen many incorrect statements people are reacting to.....

....

The facts I alluded to were below the post script. I thought I was being pretty clear and they are still correct.

As for depreciation...What?! Cars depreciate?! OMG! Who would have guessed!

But should the battery pack fail after the warranty expires in 8 years from now...but let's call it 10 years before it fails, then according to Musk, a new battery pack will run about $3000 (maybe less) by then.

Hardly expensive motoring ...in your currency, little under 3 quid a week.

As for EV's being silent, and the need to protect blind pedestrians: try as I might, I could not find a single example of a blind pedestrian being killed by an EV.

Please send me a link if you find such a tragedy.

As a driver, seeing a white cane and guide -dog are a pretty good heads up to give them a wide berth/slow down.

[glend (Glen)]

Peter, I believe there is an EU standard which now requires EVs to make noise below a certain speed, like as they slow down to stop at lights, etc. This is designed to prevent blind people walking out in front of them. However, this maybe overtaken by the autonomous emergency pedestrian braking systems finding their way into the cheapest of petrol cars these days, it seems the technology will be put into EVs as well.

[AndyG (Andy)]

I'd love to see in the medium to long term a standard for batteries. Some design scheme/cooperative which could encourage consolidation of battery models down to a few. Both new car buyers and replacement battery buyers could enjoy the benefits of volume production.

With the BMS being built into said standard battery, then there's a good chance that battery chemistry evolution could remain inclusive with legacy models of car. As long as the connection, voltage and mounting are compatible, one could buy a "genuine" or aftermarket battery with a degree of confidence. Perhaps higher capacities could be realised by extended "length", with other physical variables being identical.

The only variable to the consumer would be the quality/real world power yield.

We're all aware that car makers will fight this due to lack of "control", but one can dream. Secondly, the honesty of aftermarket (and even OEM) manufacturers on the yield paid for is a factor. Strangly, I see many parallels with the printer cartridge market.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by glend

Peter, I believe there is an EU standard which now requires EVs to make noise below a certain speed, like as they slow down to stop at lights, etc. This is designed to prevent blind people walking out in front of them. However, this maybe overtaken by the autonomous emergency pedestrian braking systems finding their way into the cheapest of petrol cars these days, it seems the technology will be put into EVs as well.

I am aware of the legislation. EV's in the EU, now need to make noise under 12km/hr.
I don't think they were put in to effect to protect the blind pedestrian population however. Guide dog hearing is exceptional.

Lord knows, we must protect those who can other wise look, but don't.

I guess we can rely upon the oil burners to help accelerate climate change and cull the rest of the population.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by glend

but keeping the individual cells at about 90% of capacity will double the lifespan. It is easy to see that some owners will have to replace their batteries before the end of the warranty period (The wording if the warranty will be interesting). ...
...And charging equipment needs to be able to be set for longevity charging instead of max voltage.

Having spent a few nights reading about the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, it's suggested that the BMS does just that. "Full" is 90% of theoretical charge.

I remember reading about the original Prius assigned "empty" to 60% charge or similar, which was appropriate for the chemistry at the time (NiMH?).

There seems to be a fine balance in the factory designs: "Charge as much as possible to outdo the competition in range, but don't overdo it to result in 10,000's of warranty claims in 6 years time. I hope they got it right

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Lord knows, we must protect those who can other wise look, but don't.

This will just result in a cultural evolution of people. In the past, nobody needed to look out for a car, before that, a horse and cart, before that, just the horse, before that, woolley mammoth, etc.

It will be adapt or perish. After meeting my first EV on the street (a Mitsubishi i-Miev in Japan), I learned fast. Perhaps like you, I have a special place in my heart for phone zombies. It matters not to me whether they adapt or not

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by AndyG

Perhaps like you, I have a special place in my heart for phone zombies.....

Indeed! I think there needs to be a new section in the Darwin Awards just for them.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I do like the idea of less traffic noise.
Probably city folk don't notice but the din is always there.
The quieter the better.

Good point. I wonder if "sensory overload" is a public health issue, or may become such in future? I'm obviously not offended by "loud" motorbikes or cars etc, but lowering the communal "noise floor" by the eventual mass adoption of EV can't hurt.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

I reckon it has to be. I have hearing damage due to nearly a decade working in a noisy environment while in the RAAF. I used to work in the Melbourne CBD and didn't notice it too much at the time, but I have spent the last ten years out of that environment.

Now when I have call to go in to the CBD I am astounded by the general noise levels, I could not stand working there every day now, let alone living there. I understand why so many people get about with big earmuff style headphones on, probably deafening themselves with music instead.

Regards battery life and charge percentage, I would bet a decent bottle of scotch that the bean counters set the charge scheme, based on getting a high enough percentage of battery packs out of warranty before failure while claiming the absolute maximum of range that the extra sales are expected to more than offset the warranty costs.