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Old 13-10-2019, 09:00 AM
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Watching the car races in bed..nice.
Imagine an event 1000 klms with electric cars. You would be forced by competition to develop a system that enabled you to change batteries..rules could be set to have maybe 5 changes of battery in the race so hopeful systems must be as fast as possible....let's face it if you introduced such a race for the current F1 style electric car batteries would get changed in less than ten seconds.F1 approach heck they would come up with a system to change batteries in three seconds.
Being able to sell electricity fast, or like petrol is an important part of the mix...the only objection to an electric car could be range....give the problem to racing...Already I can imagine ways to do it and can imagine a F1 type battery change in my mind like a YouTube video. Just upscale your cordless power tool battery change. Anyways you can bet someone is working on the problem ...but having done race promotion and noticed the multiple types of racing and competition ...you could start such an event and probably make good money..I mean imagine a Bathurst event electric cars that look lovely ke you family sedan with a fancy paint job..like V8 Super cars...when they put the car goes on a hoist, better if not...mmm yes car be done...the crew two guys grab the old battery pull it out like they rip off the wheels and two other guys wheel the new battery in triggering the lock in system ...mmm good rule..driver must throw a main switch to make sure no accidents...but to replicate a future consumer approach.
I know..battery is on a rail that allows pushing a new one in on one side while the old one slides into a trolley..heck just bolt wheels onto your batteries...
Also competitors would seek out better batteries systems power management and perhaps recovery of energy when braking...

Alex

I have it...the battery change goes like this..the car enters its pit area..it triggers the robotic battery change system...the new battery rolls itself into place as the old battery drives itself out the back to the recharge facility...the new battery plugs in retracts it's wheels and is ready to power up...
And with a battery distribution system in place of petrol you would have the capacity to manage fluctuations in energy supply making solar and wind very manageable ...in fact such a system could store from the grid and sell to the grid...your community battery bank could come by just using batteries in store for the "petrol station".

Alex

Last edited by RB; 13-10-2019 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 13-10-2019, 10:24 AM
glend (Glen)
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Alex, in the current Formula E competition the pit stop is used two simply switch cars. The driver gets out of the discharged car and gets into the second car which is fully charged. Obviously battery management is crucial in this competition, and regenerative braking is very important. Imagine the recharge being generated by deceleration at the end of Conrod Straight.
It is worth watching Formula E, as it is likely to be the future of motor sport. I was reading today that the current Formula 1 teams disagree on the new design rules for 2012 cars, with the current status quo leaders wanting to keep their big $ advantages, hardly surprising. In Formula E the cars are pretty much identical, so power mgt and driving skills become the primary focus.

As I was watching Bathurst this morning I could not help thinking that the organisers don't recognise a dying sport.
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Old 13-10-2019, 11:08 AM
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The_bluester (Paul)
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Actually that is not the case any more in Formula E, the new cars introduced this year did away with the mid race car change.
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Old 13-10-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by glend View Post
Alex, in the current Formula E competition the pit stop is used two simply switch cars. The driver gets out of the discharged car and gets into the second car which is fully charged. Obviously battery management is crucial in this competition, and regenerative braking is very important. Imagine the recharge being generated by deceleration at the end of Conrod Straight.
It is worth watching Formula E, as it is likely to be the future of motor sport. I was reading today that the current Formula 1 teams disagree on the new design rules for 2012 cars, with the current status quo leaders wanting to keep their big $ advantages, hardly surprising. In Formula E the cars are pretty much identical, so power mgt and driving skills become the primary focus.

As I was watching Bathurst this morning I could not help thinking that the organisers don't recognise a dying sport.
I have watched a couple.
So easy with their access to stuff to make a battery change thingy...
But the spin off for a battery exchange system is to provide a useful tool in power management...batteries could be sold as investments cause each little battery is bringing in rent...
Alex
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Old 13-10-2019, 11:53 AM
glend (Glen)
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Originally Posted by The_bluester View Post
Actually that is not the case any more in Formula E, the new cars introduced this year did away with the mid race car change.
Yes, I stand corrected. Current regs here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_E
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Old 13-10-2019, 12:14 PM
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The_bluester (Paul)
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Originally Posted by glend View Post
As I was watching Bathurst this morning I could not help thinking that the organisers don't recognise a dying sport.
And I can't help but agree with you there.

I am a motorsports nut, and while I have never been interested in the supercars category, firstly because of spending two decades promoting it as a tribal contest between two cars that I had no love of to speak of (Owned both over the years and found them both to be "just cars") and then making it all about the "Personalities" (Anyone remember the tripe that was "V8 Superstars" on the ten network?)

Ignoring that, they have belated realised the trouble they are in and tried to attract other "Manufacturers" to their now "BYO engine" silhouette series and after some permutations it is now a three horse race between an noncompetitive Nissan that no one was buying even before it was pulled off the market a couple of years ago, and no longer has any factory backing, a Mustang that looks like a distorted version of the car that is wildly popular in it's tiny little niche in the market, and a Commodore that people are walking past in droves on their way to buy a Camry, or more likely, a Kluger.

All the while they are telling us how great it all is, and the TCR category is perilously close to eating their lunch for them.

BTW, I think electrified racing is coming and while I will miss the noise of some of the great engines in racing, I am fine with it. In ten years if I have to electrify my HR31 to keep doing motorsport, so be it.
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Old 13-10-2019, 12:48 PM
gary
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Hi Alex,

Don't forget that not all vehicles with electric drive-trains require recharging.

For example, the 2019 Hyundai Nexo SUV has a range of 570 km.

It has three hydrogen fuel tanks with a total capacity of 156 liters.
It takes 5 minutes to refuel.

The current generation of hybrid F1 cars have had no in-race refuelling
now for many years.

Changing all four tyres on an F1 car takes as little as 1.9 seconds but
typically in the 2.0 to 3 second range. A 3 second pit stop is regarded
as a poor time.
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Old 13-10-2019, 01:37 PM
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I for one don’t see why there is a need for hybrid or electric vehicles in current petrol racing series. I have zero problem with series like Formula E as a stand-alone series but I think F1 has been overly complicated and has lost its soul since the introduction of hybrid engines. People will argue that the cars are faster with the addition of electric motors and they use less fuel. No arguement from me there but that doesn’t mean it’s better. The problems that occur with the hybrid component are a huge portion of the failures in F1 racing. The lesser teams have to push their systems to the limit to be competitive while the likes of Mercedes can run theirs at 80% to remain reliable so it’s done nothing for parity. The constant failures of the lesser power units means they occur grid penalties when they are changed and changing them because they fail incurs huge cost so it’s not achieving anything there either. Have your hybrid or full electric cars if you want but in stand alone series. For F1, set a fuel limit for the race ( given that’s where power comes from ) and let the manufactures decide how to use it. High torque engines that accelerate fast and are good on hills or high power high revving engines that are fast on high speed tracks. Racing loses its relevance not when it doesn’t resemble road cars but when you try to make it something it’s not. That’s just my 2 cents
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Old 13-10-2019, 02:17 PM
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Could you have an electric car with the same power as V8 Super cars..what size batteries would to need and how big would an electric motor have to be..how many laps would you get. 4 wd. via a motor for each wheel.
Doable?
Alex
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Old 13-10-2019, 06:09 PM
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Top end speed and battery drain is the weak link, but ev's are fast of the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGhjhx8O9M
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Old 13-10-2019, 07:04 PM
raymo
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Battery drain is certainly a weak link for now, but top end speed isn't, you
can make an EV go as fast as you want; torque decides acceleration, and
Kw decides top speed, and you can give an EV as many Kw as you want. If
the desired top speed would exceed the motor's design max rpm, just put
the appropriate gear between the motor and the wheel[s] it drives, as some EVs already do, but for a different reason.
raymo
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Old 14-10-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Watching the car races in bed..nice.
Imagine an event 1000 klms with electric cars. You would be forced by competition to develop a system that enabled you to change batteries..rules could be set to have maybe 5 changes of battery in the race so hopeful systems must be as fast as possible....let's face it if you introduced such a race for the current F1 style electric car batteries would get changed in less than ten seconds.F1 approach heck they would come up with a system to change batteries in three seconds.
Being able to sell electricity fast, or like petrol is an important part of the mix...the only objection to an electric car could be range....give the problem to racing...Already I can imagine ways to do it and can imagine a F1 type battery change in my mind like a YouTube video. Just upscale your cordless power tool battery change. Anyways you can bet someone is working on the problem ...but having done race promotion and noticed the multiple types of racing and competition ...you could start such an event and probably make good money..I mean imagine a Bathurst event electric cars that look lovely ke you family sedan with a fancy paint job..like V8 Super cars...when they put the car goes on a hoist, better if not...mmm yes car be done...the crew two guys grab the old battery pull it out like they rip off the wheels and two other guys wheel the new battery in triggering the lock in system ...mmm good rule..driver must throw a main switch to make sure no accidents...but to replicate a future consumer approach.
I know..battery is on a rail that allows pushing a new one in on one side while the old one slides into a trolley..heck just bolt wheels onto your batteries...
Also competitors would seek out better batteries systems power management and perhaps recovery of energy when braking...

Alex

I have it...the battery change goes like this..the car enters its pit area..it triggers the robotic battery change system...the new battery rolls itself into place as the old battery drives itself out the back to the recharge facility...the new battery plugs in retracts it's wheels and is ready to power up...
And with a battery distribution system in place of petrol you would have the capacity to manage fluctuations in energy supply making solar and wind very manageable ...in fact such a system could store from the grid and sell to the grid...your community battery bank could come by just using batteries in store for the "petrol station".

Alex
lex, no problem with electric cars doing the 1000 km race. They just have to tow a trailer with a diesel Generator inside it, and an extension lead hooked up to their car

Oh there is another problem with electric cars most people do not know about. Our bushfire brigade was told that if we are called out to an electric car fire, with people trapped inside, we are to stand back and lt it burn, that is let those people die. See those burning batteries put out very toxic fumes that will kill any firefighter not wearing breathing gear. And our trucks do not carry breathing gear, and also most of us are volunteers, and would not spend days being trained how to us that breathing gear if we did have it.

Last edited by RB; 14-10-2019 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 14-10-2019, 03:21 PM
julianh72 (Julian)
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Diesel and petrol fire fumes are highly toxic too - SOx, NOx, hydrogen cyanide, formaldehyde, ...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...tbl2_240821843
And let's not forget all the highly toxic fumes from the burning plastics used in modern vehicles.

Do you let petrol and diesel car / truck fires burn, and stand by and watch the inhabitants die?
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Old 14-10-2019, 05:35 PM
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astroron (Ron)
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I find it funny that people complain about battery drain.
Most peope use their car to go to work and back during the week,probably doing the max of about 200kms a day if that.
Come home,have tea get out a stubby or a glass of wine and in for the evening.
Stick the car on charge over night and you're right for tomorrow which you will do it all over again.
I have some friends in America who have an electric car and they have just done a trip around 5 or 6 states and have had not one ounce of bother charging their vehicle.
They got around 450kms per charge
It's a big Furfy spread by the fosill fuel mob that there is no range in electric cars.
BTW Queesland has recharging stations all the way up the coast to Cairns and beyond
As battery technology and other fuel sources come on line in the next few years,you won't even hear a whimper about battery or energy source life.
If I could afford an electric car I would jump at the chance.
What I want to see come on line is an Electric Harley Davidson motorbike,then we wouldn't have to put up wth that abhorrent noise that they seem to get away wth comapared to other vehicles.
Is this Cop envy that the cops don't police Harley Davidson's for noise pollution.?
Cheers
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Old 14-10-2019, 07:44 PM
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People complaining about range on EVs generally either don't understand the issue or have an axe to grind. You can now get 500+km ranges on EVs. Even on a huge drive, that's enough to get you to lunch when you will recharge.
With EVs you can start every trip with a 'full tank' from home. How many people with old cars can say that?
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Old 14-10-2019, 07:47 PM
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What I want to see come on line is an Electric Harley Davidson motorbike,then we wouldn't have to put up wth that abhorrent noise that they seem to get away wth comapared to other vehicles.
Is this Cop envy that the cops don't police Harley Davidson's for noise pollution.?
Cheers
I somehow suspect that the riders of those things only do so for the noise.
There are effectively zero noise controls for trucks and motorcycles. In the rare event that one get's picked up for noise, they have a week before they get tested, during which time they temporarily change the exhaust pipe.

The only way I can see this getting fixed is to gradually phase out fossil fueled vehicles.
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Old 14-10-2019, 09:16 PM
raymo
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Ben, There are noise limits for every type of vehicle, but just like many other road and vehicle rules, they are largely ignored by traffic cops [ I'm guessing
that they are told to by their "superiors"]. The one that upsets me is the huge percentage of bike racks that completely hide the rego plate, when they can
buy a plate to put on the rack for about $29.
raymo

Last edited by RB; 14-10-2019 at 09:54 PM. Reason: Profanity bypass deleted
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Old 15-10-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astroron View Post
What I want to see come on line is an Electric Harley Davidson motorbike,then we wouldn't have to put up wth that abhorrent noise that they seem to get away wth comapared to other vehicles.
Is this Cop envy that the cops don't police Harley Davidson's for noise pollution.?
Cheers
https://www.harley-davidson.com/au/e.../electric.html

Unfortunately, it's apparently plagued by design problems. Furthermore, the styling I can't see being attractive to a customer who'd want a Harley anyway. Though having never owned, nor wanted a Harley I'm not qualified on that front. Any Harley owners/fans wish to comment?

Not much comment regarding Cops and exhaust noise, aside to say I've been pulled over many times in the past on my various 600 sports bikes with straight throughs... I just told them "I haven't been <<merged into>> by car drivers since I fitted it, and I'm happy to be alive now to hear what Mr Policeman has to say". They shrugged and sent me on my way.
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Old 15-10-2019, 10:49 AM
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i'd rather see electric cars have a hand cranked genny. and the drivers have to do the cranking.
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Old 15-10-2019, 11:21 AM
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i'd rather see electric cars have a hand cranked genny. and the drivers have to do the cranking.
Pedal cars maybe
I think a human can generate 100 watts, not sure but I suspect you would be cranking for a long time.
When I don't have to do 10 hour trips four times a month I may go electric...preferably a driverless electric.
Alex
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