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Old 14-04-2008, 04:46 PM
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DSLR Modded 20D vs 350D? or 30D

Hi All,

Need some input on this differences in these two camera's that would make one better than the other for Astroimaging. Is there amp glow present in the 20d's?

From what I have read the features of the 30D over the 20D only one seems to be of any use to Astroimaging. That is the ISO speed of 3200. However the rest like bigger screen size and spot meetering dont seem all that important to Astroimaging. Is there something else about the 30D over the 20D that makes it more worthwhile to get?

I just have it the back of my head that perhaps the 20D is special because Canon chose it to be there one and only Astro camera body. Would a modded 20d be for all intents and purposes the same as the the 20DA? Are there features on the 20DA not available on a modded 20D?

Rough pricing i have using used Camera body's is 550 landed for a 350D and 700 landed for a 20D and about 900 for a 30D. I ruled out the 30D simply on price because saving a few more months i could get a QHY8. The 350d is almost in budget and at a stretch the 20D would be doable.

Also is the Baader ACF II filter the same as a UV/IR Filter?

Regards
Fahim
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  #2  
Old 14-04-2008, 04:55 PM
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Hi Fahim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
Hi All,

Need some input on this differences in these two camera's that would make one better than the other for Astroimaging. Is there amp glow present in the 20d's?
Yes, all 350's, 20d's, 30d's have amp glow. The 300D have 2 amp glows. Amp glow can be subtracted from dark frames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
From what I have read the features of the 30D over the 20D only one seems to be of any use to Astroimaging. That is the ISO speed of 3200. However the rest like bigger screen size and spot meetering dont seem all that important to Astroimaging. Is there something else about the 30D over the 20D that makes it more worthwhile to get?
The 30D and the 20D both have the same cmos sensor. the 30d have all the additional bits and pieces such as bigger LCD screen, iso3200 etc but for astro imaging, no difference here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
I just have it the back of my head that perhaps the 20D is special because Canon chose it to be there one and only Astro camera body. Would a modded 20d be for all intents and purposes the same as the the 20DA? Are there features on the 20DA not available on a modded 20D?
The 20DA has liveview whereas the standard 20d don't. If the standard 20D is modded, it is a much better camera than a 20DA for astro imaging. However, the 20DA is also build for daytime photography but you certainly can use a modded 20D with UV/IR for daytime photography also with correct CWB. in regards to this, the 20DA will be better off for daytime compared to a modified 20D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
Rough pricing i have using used Camera body's is 550 landed for a 350D and 700 landed for a 20D and about 900 for a 30D. I ruled out the 30D simply on price because saving a few more months i could get a QHY8. The 350d is almost in budget and at a stretch the 20D would be doable.

Also is the Baader ACF II filter the same as a UV/IR Filter?
Yes same coatings as the UV/IR.

Regards
Fahim[/quote]

Cheers Fahim, ask away.
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Old 14-04-2008, 04:58 PM
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Wow Eric. how did i know that you would answer all my questions. You are the DSLR King.
So 350d or 20D? Which one?
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Old 14-04-2008, 05:01 PM
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i'll go for the 20D noise is definitely lower on the 20d compared to the 350d at higher iso settings above 800.
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Old 14-04-2008, 05:05 PM
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this is a good review comparision 350d vs 20d

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography...xt_vs_20d.html
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Old 14-04-2008, 05:44 PM
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And why not stretch to a 40D? (despite Erics experience)
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Old 14-04-2008, 06:19 PM
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Fred at the 40d price point i would start considering the Qhy8 or similar OSC CCD camera's. I have a C8 Fastar and even with hyperstar v3 i can not use a DSLR with it. The qhy8 would be better suited for this but as yet i think i want to start cutting my teeth with a dslr until i master the post processing skills.
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Old 14-04-2008, 06:26 PM
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My money is on a used 20D, and get it modded. I have the non-modded version and while it would be better modified, I think I would prefer to get another body and do that, as my current camera sees a lot of daylight use.
Great camera though.
Gary
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Old 14-04-2008, 06:31 PM
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Sound reasoning Fahim. (Eric ). The Hyperstar would allow much data with less exposures, and yes a DSLR would be probilmatic on it I guess.
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Old 14-04-2008, 07:31 PM
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Just to add some info on amp glow.
Canon improved the amp glow handling of the cameras after the 300D.
While it is present on the 20D/20Da on long exp, if you use ICNR on, my understanding is that the camera switches off the amp during the long exp resulting in a cleaner frame.

Below are some dark frames I took using the 20Da and one from the 300D.
All were done at 20C ambient temp.

#1 = 20Da, 10 min, no ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW
#2 = 20Da, 10 min, no ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW stretched in PS Exp +4, Brightness +150

#3 = 20Da, 10 min, ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW
#4 = 20Da, 10 min, ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW stretched in PS Exp +4, Brightness +150

#5 = 300D, 10 min, no ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW
#6 = 300D, 10 min, no ICNR, 800 ISO, RAW stretched in PS Exp +4, Brightness +150

The 20D is still considered a great camera body for terrestrial, some prefer it to the newer 30D in terms of noise performance.

The 40D IMO is a great DSLR, 2nd only to the FF Canon 5D in the prosumer range.
The 5D BTW is set to be replaced soon but in terms of performance it is the best prosumer Canon body released by Canon to date with noise performance approaching the 1D series bodies.

The live focus on the 20Da is a dream to use and would be the same on the new 40D.

If I was to recommend one for you now, I would recommend a modded 20D or better still a modded 40D with Live View and 14bit Digic III processor.
Next would be a modded 350D and after that a modded 400D.

The new Canon 450D is rumoured to have a non removable CMOS filter which will make it unsuitable for modding if it is true, but this is still unconfirmed.

Good luck in whatever you choose Fahim.

BTW if you haven't settled on Canon gear I would also consider getting a Nikon D300 modded by Hutec but I have no experience with Nikon.
For Terrestrial the D300 is a great body with superb performance.
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Old 14-04-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB View Post
The new Canon 450D is rumoured to have a non removable CMOS filter which will make it unsuitable for modding if it is true, but this is still unconfirmed.
I'll second that also. The low pass filter is built infront of the CMOS chip on the 450D which makes it non removable. As always, modders will somehow remove this but until then, i don't think we'll see a proper modified 450d in awhile.

Gary Honis is currently investigating on how to mod the 450D. I'll wait until his tutorial is complete first

http://ghonis2.ho8.com/rebelmod450d11.html
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Old 14-04-2008, 07:48 PM
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umm, I did a a 300d Shutdown-amp-during-exposure mod, its not hard, then that problem is gone. But yes, the 40D is a quantum leap, so why bother.
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Old 14-04-2008, 08:20 PM
Alchemy (Clive)
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nice to see rocket boys comparitive images, just shows my 300d has had its best days,
currently saving for a q8, i found in summer just too much noise for my liking. the newer the camera the better it seems , i just reckon cooling is the way to go. happy spending whatever you buy.
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Old 14-04-2008, 08:44 PM
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RB thanks for those dark frames, exactly the kind of visual persuasion i needed. i did not realize the 20DA had live view, no wonder it costs much more even on the used market. I wonder if a 20Da hacked firmware would work on the 20d to give it a live view feature. I to think the 20d would be the best option for the money. The 40D would be nice. I have a 400D that i will keep for daytime use and possibly will trade for a 450d or 40d at some point for daytime use.

Regards
Fahim
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Old 14-04-2008, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
I wonder if a 20Da hacked firmware would work on the 20d to give it a live view feature. Regards
Fahim
The 20Da is unique in this way Fahim because apparently it uses an 'opaque' partial transmission mirror mechanism to allow the light thru when focusing.
It is implemented a little differently on the 40D I believe.

It's amazing to watch the star change colour as it comes into focus (to pure white) then change back out (CA) when past focus.
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Old 15-04-2008, 03:51 PM
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I am sure i have read that Hutech will be selling modded 450D's in May? So perhaps they have worked out the mod for this.

RB so it would seem this live view feature can not be added by software hacking. It would require a mirror replacement or perhaps remove the mirror altogether.

So it seems the main advantage of the 20D would be less noise above iso 800 than a 350D. And the disadvantage would be more weight and more power consumption.

Regards
Fahim
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Old 15-04-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post

Rough pricing i have using used Camera body's is 550 landed for a 350D and 700 landed for a 20D and about 900 for a 30D. I ruled out the 30D simply on price because saving a few more months i could get a QHY8. The 350d is almost in budget and at a stretch the 20D would be doable.

Also is the Baader ACF II filter the same as a UV/IR Filter?

Regards
Fahim
Fahim - I've just landed a 350D body from USA (Rebel XT) for $380 including shipping. The camera arrived today and is in good nick. It has 5600 frames taken on it - so it's near new.

The Baader ACF filter is the one I'm going for - for certain. Here's a review:

http://forum.skyatnightmagazine.com/...le.asp?m=63364
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Old 15-04-2008, 07:25 PM
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Chris, I am thinking to sourcing mine via http://tan14.com/gears.htm in HK. I contacted Them after seeing a link to the site on this forum. They have the ACF filter your after listed. They can also source used cameras and mod them for you if need be.


The charge for modification is only 40AUD, this is the best price i have seen around.
And the estimates on used camera body's is about the same as i have seen for on US sites for used equipment, if not a little better.
If I had your skill i would mod the camera myself but i rather get a working camera than fried chips.

There is also DSLRAstro in the UK who have very similar pricing and offer the similar mods. The currently have the 400D modded for about 500GBP which is around 1000$. Not sure if this is a used camera or brand new.

Regards
Fahim

Last edited by netwolf; 15-04-2008 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 15-04-2008, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
RB so it would seem this live view feature can not be added by software hacking. It would require a mirror replacement or perhaps remove the mirror altogether.

So it seems the main advantage of the 20D would be less noise above iso 800 than a 350D. And the disadvantage would be more weight and more power consumption.

Regards
Fahim
Yes it's not a matter of a software hack (like the Russian 300D hack), it's actually a hardware difference in the 20Da.
Not worth pursuing a mirror mod on the 20D now that the new Canons have live view.
But well worth pursuing a used 20D or 20Da to mod the filter.
In fact I'd love to mod my 20Da.

Yes the 20D has less noise than the 350D/400D.
It is a little heavier, better built, but also has a larger battery so power consumption is very well accommodated.
The BP-511A battery on my camera last for ages on a single charge and I'm lucky all my bodies take the same batteries so I never run out of power.

Focus can be achieved via software on the lappy Fahim so a used 20D is a great choice if you're looking to mod one.

Ultimately though a mod 40D is the best all-round choice if the budget allows it.
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