#61  
Old 11-04-2020, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
I'm not sure where to start - there's a few messages in this thread that are simply amazing in that they've been written in the first place. If you want to talk conspiracy theories, go to your lunatics on facebook, we don't need it here.

And the persistent comparisons to other illnesses or types of deaths. Do some research just to show how wrong you've got it. Stop spouting stupid nonsense please.

A quick search for US data, gives this: "For 2016 specifically, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) data shows 37,461 people were killed in 34,436 motor vehicle crashes, an average of 102 per day." <-- Currently, the US is at nearly 2000 per day deaths due to covid-19 (total at time of writing 18K+). They will probably go well past this figure by the end of the month.

Just because we were quicker to react and put in place measures to reduce the number of deaths means we might be lucky to get under our vehicle deaths for the year. USA is an example where they won't - and this should be an alarm bell for your damn brain to realise why we are in lockdown.

And as for the flu numbers. I can't believe the comparison is still being made. Totally irrational. I wonder if these people would have been similar to those who whinged about Y2K and nothing happening? Nothing happened because we intervened and stopped it from happening, but some people are so blind they can't see that.

As for the measures in place for the "social distancing", isolation, etc - I think it's gone a bit too far, but most of that has been driven by stupid people trying to either bend the rules or ignore them thinking they know better - so we get these stupid situations where some guy trying to wash his car is hassled. Individual person might be smart, but in general people are dumb.
+1

Couldn't have put this better myself..... thanks Lazjen... I'd have probably sworn a bit had I wrote it...
  #62  
Old 11-04-2020, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Zuts View Post
.........
As far as travelling to a holiday home, some rural hospitals may have only one or two ventilators, so if everyone decided to visit how are these hospitals supposed to provide support to their local residents?
Well, as a mature adult I think that call should be mine to make.
Particularly after 14 days of isolation and zero infection.
The drive, say to Bateman's Bay, is hardly likely to infect me.

But to be fair, If I show any respiratory aliments on arrival, it would be fair enough for local medial centres to say "bugger off" and for preferential support to be given to locals.

The extreme risk aversion of Australia I frankly find weird.

The recent banning by "authorities" of coastal walks being rather bizarre.

The chances of one collecting this bug from a passing jogger are, while not zero, extremely low.

Also, my driving to a remote site to do some astro-photography, meet no-one, and drive home again
is perversely illegal.....as in my initial post, due some really lazy legislation.

We'll have to wear hard-hats soon due rocks falling from space

P.S.
My comments relate to the Australian spread of COVID-19.
Clearly we are not in the same boat as the USA/Spain/Italy/UK

Last edited by Peter Ward; 11-04-2020 at 06:30 PM.
  #63  
Old 11-04-2020, 06:05 PM
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Cippolas fourth law

Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals.


Maybe think a little these measures are more about we than me Peter ,, the older people among us who will benefit the most from the wider pain we all are living with do need all the help we can give them .


  #64  
Old 11-04-2020, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Ward View Post
My comments relate to the Australian spread of COVID-19.
Clearly we are not in the same boat as the USA/Spain/Italy/UK
And the reason we are in the fortunate state we are in Peter is because of the 'risk aversion' that you proclaim to be weird!!

Also, in too many instances people, particularly young people are asymptomatic so, can unwittingly transmit the disease to others who DIE...

How would you feel if someone you love contracts the disease from someone who was asymptomatic & decided for themselves that they were no risk to anyone??

Whilst I don't disagree that some of the regulations seem a little draconian & somewhat vague, leaving interpretation on whether or not you should recieve a fine solely in the hands of the police officer that pulls you over sadly, some peoples behaviour has clearly illustrated the need for such sweeping restrictions.

Sure, you might just be responsible & do all the right things... trouble is there are still too many who aren't...

The very reason we are not experiencing the infection & mortality rates of Italy, Spain, UK & US are because of the actions we took... but, hey, sure.. let's just have at & let the people decide what they will & won't do... seemed to be work well in those countries eh?

I'm so sorry that your personal rights & freedoms have been impacted by the overwhelming need to keep others in the community safe, I mean, how dare they!!
  #65  
Old 11-04-2020, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Outcast View Post
And the reason we are in the fortunate state we are in Peter is because of the 'risk aversion' that you proclaim to be weird!!
Don't misquote me. "extreme" risk aversion is what I find odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outcast View Post

Also, in too many instances people, particularly young people are asymptomatic so, can unwittingly transmit the disease to others who DIE...
I'd be in that "risk" group. That said, almost everyone who has died of this this in Oz ...just two per million of population ...has a co-morbidity.

You can hide in a cave, but I see no unreasonable risk in taking a coastal walk, drive though a national park, looking through a 'scope in the middle of no-where, etc.

These harmless activities, but are now illegal for no good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outcast View Post


Whilst I don't disagree that some of the regulations seem a little draconian & somewhat vague, leaving interpretation on whether or not you should recieve a fine solely in the hands of the police officer that pulls you over sadly, some peoples behaviour has clearly illustrated the need for such sweeping restrictions.
Guess that's where we will have to disagree. "some people" is not "all people" .

This is lazy draconian legislation. Sure, it helped the reduce case numbers in Oz remarkably low levels, but the reasonableness of many measures needs reviewing.
  #66  
Old 11-04-2020, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Ward View Post
Don't misquote me. "extreme" risk aversion is what I find odd.

I'd be in that "risk" group. That said, almost everyone who has died of this this in Oz ...just two per million of population ...has a co-morbidity.

You can hide in a cave, but I see no unreasonable risk in taking a coastal walk, drive though a national park, looking through a 'scope in the middle of no-where, etc.

These harmless activities, but are now illegal for no good reason.



Guess that's where we will have to disagree. "some people" is not "all people" .

This is lazy draconian legislation. Sure, it helped the reduce case numbers in Oz remarkably low levels, but the reasonableness of many measures needs reviewing.
So you find extreme aversion to people dying in great numbers odd... interesting thought process I must say...

Unfortunately Peter, it is because of the actions of some, not all that these measures have been deemed necessary... I agree, many people will do the right thing & in fact are but, too many just don't give a sh..., apparently... same reasons we have many other laws... (which for the record I don't necessarily agree with either) but, they exist for those that don't do the right thing but, the intricasies of applying them to some & not others is pretty much impossible, especially in the situation we find ourselves in...

I also do agree that the current restrictions are somewhat vague & too open to intepretation by both the population & law enforcement. It was clearly necessary to put something quite broad in place & in a hurry but, it is time they better define what is or isn't permitted rather than leaving it open to the whim of whatever police officer decides to pull you over....

Sadly Peter, there aren't enough 'mature adults' in our population to make sensible decisions; I'm not disputing whether you would or wouldn't make the right decisions but, there has been & still is clear evidence that some folk just don't care... so, faced with the issue of too many people making dumb & careless decisions how exactly do you think they should police it?

Do we issue the 'mature adults' with a gold star so, they can do things that others may not?

Until such time as 'Everyone' takes this thing seriously & does the right thing, the laws & restrictions that have been introduced will remain however, a necessary evil...
  #67  
Old 11-04-2020, 08:32 PM
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According to Peter Doherty in today’s paper , and after all, he should know better than any self proclaimed experts, measures are working however:

”Hotspots, yet undetected, could emerge, and need careful containment. "I don't know if you can put a ring of steel around Toorak and prevent people leaving," he quips about the disease vectors otherwise known as the Aspen ski set.”
  #68  
Old 11-04-2020, 08:42 PM
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According to Peter Doherty in today’s paper , and after all, he should know better than any self proclaimed experts, measures are working however:

”Hotspots, yet undetected, could emerge, and need careful containment. "I don't know if you can put a ring of steel around Toorak and prevent people leaving," he quips about the disease vectors otherwise known as the Aspen ski set.”
But, surely Ray, as 'mature adults' those in the 'Aspen Ski Set' should be able to decide for themselves what they can & can't do....

Please use sarcasm font.... I just couldn't help myself... 'some' folk still seem to think this is non-event...
  #69  
Old 11-04-2020, 09:48 PM
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I don't know what its like down south but here in Mackay all the shops and businesses that weren't forced to shut are trading as normal. Bunnings, the supermarket, Harvey Normans all had full carparks today and plenty of traffic on the road as well. Luckily all the witches hats, security tape and crosses taped to the ground are keeping the crowds socially distanced. At least with all the big crowds at the shops it was pretty quiet at the beach, "walking the dog".
Rick
  #70  
Old 11-04-2020, 10:04 PM
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So you find extreme aversion to people dying in great numbers odd... interesting thought process I must say...
First up, we are all going to die.

No point in getting hysterical about this.
It comes with your birthright.
I'd also say: " Do not go gentle into that good night..." I digress.

The leading causes of death in Australia:
Ischaemic heart diseases (about 20,000 per annum)
Dementia, including Alzheimer disease
Cerebrovascular diseases
Malignant neoplasm of trachea, bronchus and lung
Chronic lower respiratory diseases
Malignant neoplasm of colon, sigmoid, rectum and anus
Diabetes
Malignant neoplasms of lymphoid, haematopoietic and related tissue
Diseases of the urinary system
Malignant neoplasm of prostate
Heart failure and complications and ill-defined heart disease
Influenza and pneumonia (source ABS)

I note the last on the list has killed about 3200 of us last year.
None of the above have caused a massive and costly intervention by the state.

So far COVID-19... a virus with no regard for co-morbidity... has killed 55 individuals with some serious pre-existing health conditions.
But as I write, in Australia, just slipping, tripping or tumbling has been more hazardous, killing 715 people last year.

Hence my stance is these numbers require some perspective and review.

Overseas the stats are far more sobering: the Australian State was right to be cautious.

For the large part, the sheer lack of COVID19 cases (compared to everything else) and deaths in Australia has been due to extensive quarantine restrictions.

Bravo Scomo!

But we are also in the antipodes, acted early, do what we are told (I ponder the effect of starting as a penal colony ), have universal healthcare and a reasonably egalitarian social structure....

Of the 6000 Australians who have caught this bug (to date) , 3000 have already recovered (about 98% will) , and could go back into society and economy, work and contribute with negligible fear of re-infection.
A credit-card sized piece of plastic might certify that antibody status, but a letter from your GP would work too......sadly, our "leaders" are not doing much "leading" in that department.
.
To cut to the chase: apart from the freedom of movement/association restrictions (some sensible, some not) the ruination of many workers, their families, their livelihoods, homes, business institutions and corporations for the sake of "you might get sick, and very few of you might die " due to (shock-horror) cause A, when in all likelihood (boring) cause B will actually kill, you really needs to be looked at.

I hope the above clarifies my position.
  #71  
Old 11-04-2020, 10:38 PM
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hysteria
/hɪˈstɪərɪə/
noun
1. exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement.

No hysteria on my part Peter... I just don't fancy losing good friends, my mother-in-law simply to keep everyones freedoms to do as they please, as they please... when some relatively short term restrictions can likely prevent it...

I seriously think you need to stop focussing on how things are going in Australia & take a wider look at the world we are part of mate... you have sought to downplay the significance of this event from the get go... you cite Australian figures in isolation to support your view.

Have a look at the countries that aren't doing so well... some of them have pretty good health care too but, all the same, they are struggling to get on top of it & as a result, have far stricter lockdowns in place than we do...

Sure, everyone dies... we are dying from the day we are born... no need to hasten it though don't you think?

Your statement about co-morbidity is actually not completely true; again... look outside Australia please, whilst not in great numbers, there are people dying, including young people with no underlying health conditions...

There is evidence emerging in South Korea that reinfections may be occuring & if true, this does not bode well for herd immunity or possibly even for an effective vaccine...

The point Peter is, plenty is known about all the 'killers' you've listed & there is significant ongoing scientific research aimed at finding cures.

Conversely, very little is known about Covid 19.. somehow I don't think the world or this country is particularly keen on just letting it run it's course & seeing what happens because, you know... everyone dies eventually & there are other things out there that can kill you after all....

I get it Peter, your bored, you're frustrated & I can even see your point on some of the restrictions not making sense but, from where I sit, you appear to advocate that this is nothing & we should just get on with business as usual because Australia is doing really well.... sorry mate, it doesn't work that way...

Sorry but, as someone else said earlier... it's a bit like all the Y2K naysayers who think nothing happened... yeah, nothing happened because things were done to make sure nothing bad happened... dunno about you but, can't say I'm real keen to 'see what happens' if we do nothing about the Covid 19 spread...

Sure, people will argue in the future that it was nothing (in Australia) & we didn't need all those heavy handed restrictions... shame the only way we can find out is to lift them & see what happens...

Game to try that response are you?
  #72  
Old 11-04-2020, 10:40 PM
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nice discussion fellas - time to settle and chant
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