Astro Pixel Processor vs Pixinsight

[garymck (Gary)]

Hi,

I wonder if those who have knowledge and experience of both these programs, could point me in the direction of which to purchase? Astro Pixel processor seems to be a real winner in the ease of use area. It does not have the depth of options that Pixinsight seems to have, but might be excellent for initial processing?

I have just had a wonderful first light with my new Mesu 200, and as I can now do some relatively serious imaging, am looking at purchasing some new software for processing. At the moment I would rate myself as merely a dabbler at processing, and have a limited amount of cash to spend after being caught by a drop in the Oz $ when paying for my new mount.

I cannot afford to buy both, so must make a choice here. I currently own Astroart 6 and Photoshop CS6. I quite like Astoart, and found it fine for OSC images, but I find dealing with light pollution difficult and a bit hit and miss.

Several years ago I had a trial version of Pixinsight but couldn't make head nor tail of it. I recently bought Kellers book, and requested a new trial from the Pixinsight team, but they didn't bother to reply to my email :-( so I can't really try it out.

I'm interested in obtaining decent results without aiming for an APOD... I'm not someone who will spend 8 hours processing an image. I might spend an hour or two....

I have watched several of the APP videos and it looks really good, but I would really value the opinion of people who really know processing ! Does APP plus Photoshop + really good processing? or should I go for Pixinsight

cheers
Gary

[Slawomir (Suavi)]

Hi Gary,

I have only really tried using PS in the past but did not have patience to learn how to make the most of it. PI on the other hand is the best astro-processing software I have ever used. It has tons of tools, but I think you start with a basic routine that you can develop at your own pace. From my experience, same as with Astro-Physics gear, once you start using PI you won't look for other options anymore

A simple 3-step routine in PI could be:

1. Preprocessing script for calibration - all done automatically (flats, bias, darks, star alignment, cosmetic correction etc).
2. Combine master frames with LRGB combination (or PixelMath tool).
3. Tweak colours with Histogram Transformation (or Curves tool).

[RickS (Rick)]

Gary,

Astro Pixel Processor is pretty new so I doubt you'll find anybody with much experience yet. I have watched a couple of the videos and will have a play with the trial when I get some time.

From what I have seen it has a more limited set of options than PI which may suit those who find PI has too many It still looks more complex than CCDStack which is my benchmark for ease of use.

I'll report back if I get a chance to try APP...

Cheers,
Rick.

[sil (Steve)]

I bought it. Its got a strong set of features and capabilities, not up to PI but not far below. Like ALL astrophotography software it has its own ways of doing things. Just depends if you are willing and able to get your head around them and it fits how you capture. I own pretty much all the AP software out there but only PI I really gelled with personally, not because the others were bad, they are certainly not, but because I couldn't understand them or they were too problematic to work the way I wanted to work.

Initial APP impressions is its trying to be PI for DSS users. As you learn APP has most of the capabilities and robust algorithms of PI but in a workflow more familiar to DSS users. For PI users APP isn't too hard to understand, but its method of working may not appeal. I has some features that are better than PI (its mosaicing registration is better on a simple test than I ever got with tons of effort from PI). I think for most people you will get pretty comparable results with less effort.

It is missing some features, and some are buried so they arent seen on first glance (but they are there). In one way its cloning PI perfectly: documentation is mostly empty pages. I think its been released as a V1 release way too early, I get crashes often but it seems it more a gui for a bunch of java processes and so you dont lose everything and often restarting the crashed step works on second try immediately.

Speed, its a hog, like all these programs, astrophotography processing is a heavy load to do well and APP is no different, it will fully use your system and the bigger the better.

It uses fits files throughout its processing steps and you can take files between PI and APP no problem. So for example if you don't like the projection distortion from a large mosaic in PI you can calibrate, normalise, register your pics in APP and integrate with PI if you want. As a aide to PI users I think it can help , but its no replacement for PI at this stage. Support seems to be more open and friendly at this stage, but closed to owners only, so....

I work with DSLR and APP has been fine with hundreds of 35MP raws but I havent seen anything yet to see it can take video files so it may not be good for planetary, lunar, solar shooters. But then its clearly not a full featured program, more a V0.8 release and i think been rushed to market.
It uses a non destructive approach but I'm unclear if its all stored in memory only, doesnt seem to write to the working folder until you specifically save files and it doesnt appear to have a "project" save to let you load up a project and continue on, I'm not very experienced with it yet. For anyone trialing it seems anything you do with the stuff on the left of the screen is not permanently applied or saved, the stuff on the right of screen is where you do tweaks and save out your image. This isn't immediately clear, in PI terms the left side is not applied just like a Screen TansferFunction is not applied. The right side is more the HistogramStretch.

My impression is experienced users of PI and other packages could find APP useful as an additional tool to work with not a replacement (certainly not an upgrade).

But for novices, using the freeware options, especially DSS and photoshop it would be a good step up to go to. Its a more typical workflow familiar to other packages and has plenty of fine tuning options for you to explore but the default settings will get you good results out of the box for the impatient. So if you've outgrown DSS then APP will be easy to pick up and use and make for an easier transition later on to PI, AstroArt, Nebulosity etc. APP is NOT a oneclick solution and for first time astrophotography processing might or might not be usable for you, it requires work.


Over time it may grow to have good documentation and broader features to cover more areas of astrophotography but today its someone trying to cram PI into DSS. It works, but not 100% stable or documented, I can't recommend to beginners an incomplete product that was rushed to market. But if you want more from DSS then take a look at APP, it is good and might one day be great but just not today.

steve

add:
- rereading the manual etc, seems APP can be a one click pony, its tab system sort of guides you throw a workflow to get a single linear integrated image,before post processing like gradient removal etc. so once you load all your lights/flat/ darks/bias (you dont NEED them all give it what you've got, if only lights thats fine) then go to the Integrate tab and press the Integrate button at the bottom and APP wil go through the steps with default settings to calibrate, star analyse, normalise, register etc all for you it seems. I'll try it tonight. So this will be good to get a good idea of whats in your image if you say use a small set of files first.

I'm interested to see how it drizzles too which i think is part of the integration tool. Binning I havent seen specifically mentioned but its there in registration/integration I think as a scaling feature. From how its mentioned elsewhere and in videos it sound like its a binning process rather than a resizing process.

One last thing for now, it appears the full licence allows installing on three machines which is great, I've got it on my main computer upstairs and will install on my laptop downstairs which I use most of the time and then I can play and explore the program easier at leisure.

[skysurfer]

I tried APP as well, but it is still too buggy.
With Photoshop, DSS or Siril I get better results.
But APP has the potential to get a nice processing app. Much more user friendly than PI, which I tried and it was a nightmare with its clunky user interface.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

I tried APP as well, but it is still too buggy.
With Photoshop, DSS or Siril I get better results.
But APP has the potential to get a nice processing app. Much more user friendly than PI, which I tried and it was a nightmare with its clunky user interface.

Ditto.

[benklerk]

Hi Glen

I bought pixinsight as a found out that deep sky stacker cannot read raw colour Fits files from my ZWO ASI 071. Hope this helps.

Ben

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by benklerk

Hi Glen

I bought pixinsight as a found out that deep sky stacker cannot read raw colour Fits files from my ZWO ASI 071. Hope this helps.

Ben

DSS has no trouble with the files from the ASI1600MM-C. Can't understand why the ASI071 would be different.

[benklerk]

Originally Posted by glend

DSS has no trouble with the files from the ASI1600MM-C. Can't understand why the ASI071 would be different.

Hi Glen

The ASI 1600MM is mono so its not a problem if you do RGB filters.

The ASI 071 is a colour sensor not mono. DSS only reads it as mono and cannot convert it to colour.

Gary

From what I have found with OSC cameras, most free software like DSS cannot debayer the fits image. As I use pixinsight it does dabayer (RGGB) it back into colour then you can work on your images. Never heard of Astro Pixel Processor until now.

But Astro Pixel is about half the cost of pixinsight. But they both offer free trails, try them both out and see which one does a better job at processing images.

Ben

[rcheshire (Rowland)]

Maybe the solution is one of the many preprocessing/stacking software programs and a stand alone post processing utility. StarTools comes to mind.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by benklerk

Hi Glen

The ASI 1600MM is mono so its not a problem if you do RGB filters.

The ASI 071 is a colour sensor not mono. DSS only reads it as mono and cannot convert it to colour.

Gary

From what I have found with OSC cameras, most free software like DSS cannot debayer the fits image. As I use pixinsight it does dabayer (RGGB) it back into colour then you can work on your images. Never heard of Astro Pixel Processor until now.

But Astro Pixel is about half the cost of pixinsight. But they both offer free trails, try them both out and see which one does a better job at processing images.

Ben

Ben, i have processed Canon RAW OSC files through DSS and i know it works for me. Have you configured the file bayer matrix settings correctly? There are a number of Utube videos on how to process OSC files in DSS.
There are threads on Cloudy Nights discussing ASI071 colour processing using DSS, here is one if them, with some clear screen prints from Jon Rista.
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5...-color-issues/

[luka]

Ben, you should be able to setup DSS to do debayering of the fits files. It even worked for my home-made CCD camera which DSS definitely does not know about. It is all under settings.

[garymck (Gary)]

Steve,
thanks very much for your detailed outline of APP's vs PI's capabilities. Having had a play with both, I think I'll get PI first. Like you I think APP has great potential, but is not yet solid enough or full featured enough to justify buying. If it was 50 Euro rather than 125 Euro, I would buy it, but at the moment it doesn't justify its price. perhaps in 12 months.

I already own Astroart 6 wich does a nice job of preprocessing, so I think I'll just use it for that, and then tweak in PI... (I finally got a second trial licence!).

cheers
Gary

[sil (Steve)]

Just an update I had a more serious look at APP on the weekend, only slightly distracted by the arrival on friday of my lego Saturn V rocket order at last. My focus was on taking my subs and producing a single Integration frame ready for post processing. I'd carefully taken notes from vids and the forum on how to do this well.

My Integration frames turned out as good or even better than those produced by PixInsight. Its still a little clunky process but then so is PI but far easier to get your head around than PI. When you dont define the reference frame to register to APP will analyse frame quality and pick one as reference and pixel peeping the result there was a small but noticeable improvement with the APP result. This I found was because APP was able to use all my subs, while PI wasn't able to use some that were poor quality (vibration interferred). So I'm looking forward to throwing some really bad data at APP and see how it copes, where PI wasnt able to register the subs.

So for now I'm confident to switch to using APP for producing my integrated data and then stretching in PI.

I havent touched stretching in APP at all yet, am going slow and careful, taking notes as i learn.

It didn't crash at all once all weekend. And reading the forums and thinking about the early crashes i had i think they were due to using it incorrectly.

One new plus is it warned me before starting my latest integration step that I needed to free up 622GB drive space for it to be able to build the integration frame, whereas PI would just plough ahead and crash or abort once the drive filled up. Definitely a plus to know if a process is going to finish or not before heading to bed.

The more I use it the more I like it. Being able to select a light frame and preview how it will look with flats/darks applied is handy too. Mosaics come out nice and flat too, I had a small set of 5 frames I'd taken when trying to find/frame a target one night. in PI I couldn't align them, only two but APP aligned all 5 in a mosaic as there was small overlaps, but enough. Which is great. I need to test if it can be plate solved properly though.

[garymck (Gary)]

I bought Pixinsight today as I decided I had Astroart 6 which does a nice job of preprocessing/stacking. once I get my head around Pi I will probably also get APP as well as it is nice to use, just does not have all the tools available that Pi does.
cheers
Gary

[Germ]

I also Have ASI 071 and have the same problem with APP and colour convert. I Have no problem when using MaxmDL or PI. If anyone has an answer to the problem that would be helpful.

[skysurfer]

I have tried APP, but not mature enough yet.

I tried Siril which I consider more mature. It runs on Linux or macOS.

PI is too clunky and unintuitive for me.

[Camelopardalis (Dunk)]

Dunno where "unintuitive" comes from, PI is just a workspace with a bunch of tools. It's like saying a garden shed is unintuitive.

If you want dialog boxes to hold your hand while you click "Next...next...next..." then it's clearly not for you

[RickS (Rick)]

Originally Posted by Camelopardalis

Dunno where "unintuitive" comes from, PI is just a workspace with a bunch of tools. It's like saying a garden shed is unintuitive.

If you want dialog boxes to hold your hand while you click "Next...next...next..." then it's clearly not for you

Some of us can build a house given the tools and raw materials. Others struggle with an IKEA flat pack

PI does look intimidating (unless you're a serious maths, computing or science geek.) The GUI is based on a cross platform toolkit which allows it to run mostly transparently on Windows, OSX, Linux and BSD Unix but has the downside of not looking native on any platform. And, as Dunk says, it gives you a plethora of tools and assumes you will figure out what they do and in what order to use them.

So, it can be challenging to get started and the PI philosophy doesn't mesh well with everybody. That's cool and explains why there are several alternative products...

Let's not forget that Photoshop has a horribly complex GUI too, but market dominance and longevity has made that seem normal

Cheers,
Rick.

[Octane (Humayun)]

Anyone who says PixInsight is unintuitive has never used IRIS.

IRIS was my tool of choice until I made the switch 6 years ago after seeing Rogelio's presentation at AAIC 2011.

H