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Old 28-02-2012, 06:07 AM
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A slightly sobering concept ...

No wonder we haven't back from anybody, it hasn't even got to them yet ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...travelled.html
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Old 28-02-2012, 09:39 AM
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That sure puts thinks into perspective. Thanks for the post.
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Old 28-02-2012, 02:08 PM
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Amazing!

I wonder how many stars lie within that tiny volume. I bet its more than a few!

EDIT: Never mind, 14,600 according to this:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...s/980123d.html

of which around 500 are G type if you think that makes a difference.

Personally, I believe they simply aren't listening or capable of listening. What is it? 3.5 billion years of life on Earth and we've only been able to listen in for the last 100 years, and for a large chunk of that hundred we've had the capability to bring down the whole house of cards. As has been shown time and again, assuming we are unique in the cosmos is false. I'd be surprised if the seeds of life are even from here.

Wow signal aside, do you know just how much power it would take to resolve our measly transmissions from background noise at another star? What you want to do is set off some nukes in a sequence of prime numbers- then they might have a chance if they have discovered the em spectrum! It would be a short conversation though!

Last edited by Scopie; 28-02-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 29-02-2012, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Scopie View Post
Wow signal aside, do you know just how much power it would take to resolve our measly transmissions from background noise at another star? What you want to do is set off some nukes in a sequence of prime numbers- then they might have a chance if they have discovered the em spectrum! It would be a short conversation though!
Just warn me before you do that please, I want time to duck for cover ....
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Old 29-02-2012, 12:08 PM
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While our own feeble signal has only been moving outwards for 200 years or so, the rest of the universe has been 'out there' for 13.7 Billion years - or wharever the current received wisdom is - so while nobody has had much of a chance of hearing us, there is every reason to believe that we ought to be hearing them - if they are being broadcast in any medium or band within our techincal competence.

Peter
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Old 29-02-2012, 12:45 PM
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While our own feeble signal has only been moving outwards for 200 years or so, the rest of the universe has been 'out there' for 13.7 Billion years - or wharever the current received wisdom is - so while nobody has had much of a chance of hearing us, there is every reason to believe that we ought to be hearing them - if they are being broadcast in any medium or band within our techincal competence.

Peter
I dunno. The idea that we should have heard from them seems to presume one of two things.

1 - They have found a way of circumventing the limitation of the speed of light. I find this hard to credit. It seems to be deeply embedded in the way things work. The potential outs to this as far as I can tell are either very exotic particles or wormholes. The former doesn't sound practical for actually moving things or communicating with us. The latter would require colossal amounts of energy harnessed with a precision that defies belief. And both are still based on very speculative science even in theory.

2 - They have been around for so long the speed of light isn't a major constraint. More than that, they are capable of developing, resourcing and sticking to a plan the size of a galaxy over geological time (hundreds of thousands of years at the very least). Sounds like space opera to me, and not something I'd consider likely from anything that had to evolve.

Further to both points (as many have observed), if they are that advanced, why on earth would they want to talk to us?

That said, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that plenty of them are out there. I just don't think it likely that any of us will ever hear from each other.
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Old 29-02-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave2042 View Post
..The idea that we should have heard from them seems to presume one of two things.

1 - They have found a way of circumventing the limitation of the speed of light. ...
2 - They have been around for so long the speed of light isn't a major constraint. ...
Beg to differ: my point accepts the costraint of the speed of light. At those speeds, potential signs of intelligent activity (deliberate or not) have had 13.7 billion years to reach us - i.e. emanating from anywhere within a radius of 10+ billion lights years of us.

And it is not necessarily a planned and deliberate communication - it may be nothing more sophisticated that the equivalent of a 10 Billion-year-old episode of the Klingon Brady Bunch arriving here to be be enjoyed by us with no commerical breaks. Electromagnetic spectrum pollution of the kind at which we excel.

Peter
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Old 29-02-2012, 02:49 PM
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Big Silence:
- Fermi's Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)
- GRB and sterilization
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...ray_burst.html
http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=15192.0
http://docs.exdat.com/docs/index-70565.html?page=9

Last edited by bojan; 29-02-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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  #9  
Old 29-02-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pmrid View Post
Beg to differ: my point accepts the costraint of the speed of light. At those speeds, potential signs of intelligent activity (deliberate or not) have had 13.7 billion years to reach us - i.e. emanating from anywhere within a radius of 10+ billion lights years of us.

And it is not necessarily a planned and deliberate communication - it may be nothing more sophisticated that the equivalent of a 10 Billion-year-old episode of the Klingon Brady Bunch arriving here to be be enjoyed by us with no commerical breaks. Electromagnetic spectrum pollution of the kind at which we excel.

Peter
Aah. Hadn't exactly got your point, but I do now.

Although, I still think that if we're going to get a signal from someone much further away than the immediate neighbourhood, the 1/r^2 decay says to me that it would have to be very deliberate and targeted - a random emission would seem to have no chance of lasting long and loud enough. So I still hold onto my scepticism.
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Old 29-02-2012, 02:53 PM
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Pretty dismal effort when you see it graphically displayed.

And even if some life form lived within that tiny radius it would need to be listening, know how to listen, bother with listening, have the technology to listen, or even care.

Then if they decided to reply it would take another 100 or more years for us to receive the answer, if we were listening in the direction the reply comes from.

Finding intelligent life elsewhere will be a massive task.

Simple life forms may be possible in our life times though (bacteria, fungus, etc).
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  #11  
Old 29-02-2012, 03:04 PM
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Gulp! I think I may start spending the kids inheritance right away.
Peter
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  #12  
Old 29-02-2012, 04:21 PM
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Clearly the Universe exists to provide one planet for life and that planet is Earth.

It would be stupid to suggest there could be inteligent life elsewhere as we clearly are the most wonderful beings that ever will be... it is clear we are special so why do we have to speculate that any other life may exist on another planet. It is almost as if the entire universe was created for humans...well obviously it has been created for us exclusively.

No doubt it is up to humans to occupy and use the rest of the universe as we see fit.

The possibility that life may exist elsewhere is clearly nonsence presented by those who fail to see our grand role in the scheme of everything.

Conditions for life exist on one planet and one planet only...Earth is that planet and humans are the highest form of life that can ever exist...

Alternatively given the huge number of objects in the Universe maybe there could be life on maybe one or two other planets but that life will never be inteligent like us.

Realistically the distances to elsewhere may leave the above views to forever remain unchalenged with facts that show things are indeed otherwise.

alex
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:21 AM
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Mmmm, well how about we put another 'earth' on that picture. On the other side of the Milky Way, not even on another galaxy and draw exactly the same little 200 light year circle at the same present time.
By the time both our little circles of transmission even met, let alone arrived at the other planet both civilisation will have probably long perished ...
Anything that will ever arrive here from that kind of distance will only be the signal of a long gone race methinks.

Still it's fun to even consider it and you never know what the future might bring. I reckon there has to be something out there somewhere but possible extraterrestrial fungii and slime make for quiet neighbours.
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  #14  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Clearly the Universe exists to provide one planet for life and that planet is Earth.

It would be stupid to suggest there could be inteligent life elsewhere as we clearly are the most wonderful beings that ever will be... it is clear we are special so why do we have to speculate that any other life may exist on another planet. It is almost as if the entire universe was created for humans...well obviously it has been created for us exclusively.

No doubt it is up to humans to occupy and use the rest of the universe as we see fit.

The possibility that life may exist elsewhere is clearly nonsence presented by those who fail to see our grand role in the scheme of everything.

Conditions for life exist on one planet and one planet only...Earth is that planet and humans are the highest form of life that can ever exist...

Alternatively given the huge number of objects in the Universe maybe there could be life on maybe one or two other planets but that life will never be inteligent like us.

Realistically the distances to elsewhere may leave the above views to forever remain unchalenged with facts that show things are indeed otherwise.

alex
Alex, you should be required to put a suitable warning on such a posting - something like "WARNING: Heavy Sarcasm in use." or perhaps "CAUTION: cynicism can damage your equilibrium."
Peter
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Clearly the Universe exists to provide one planet for life and that planet is Earth.

It would be stupid to suggest there could be inteligent life elsewhere as we clearly are the most wonderful beings that ever will be... it is clear we are special so why do we have to speculate that any other life may exist on another planet. It is almost as if the entire universe was created for humans...well obviously it has been created for us exclusively.

No doubt it is up to humans to occupy and use the rest of the universe as we see fit.

The possibility that life may exist elsewhere is clearly nonsence presented by those who fail to see our grand role in the scheme of everything.

Conditions for life exist on one planet and one planet only...Earth is that planet and humans are the highest form of life that can ever exist...

Alternatively given the huge number of objects in the Universe maybe there could be life on maybe one or two other planets but that life will never be inteligent like us.

Realistically the distances to elsewhere may leave the above views to forever remain unchalenged with facts that show things are indeed otherwise.

alex
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Originally Posted by pmrid View Post
Alex, you should be required to put a suitable warning on such a posting - something like "WARNING: Heavy Sarcasm in use." or perhaps "CAUTION: cynicism can damage your equilibrium."
Peter
Peter you beat me to it !
And Alex....love the post!
Bart
BTW Alex...every time I see a post of yours, I see your avatar as a Russian Tsar.......is it, was it, are you?
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:12 AM
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Thankfully those who know me recognise the attempt at being funny, once such could get you killed...mmm when you think about it there are places on this planet where such will still get you killed....fortunately crazy is an almost universal defence..no one worries about you if they think you are crazy. I have found such a system of interaction with humans useful.

I havce been reading and thinking upon quantum entanglement for a while now. It seems the idea has merit past a mere thought experiment and entanglement can be taken as fact... if it be a fact then we have to contend with action taking place between quanta (whatever) in an instant..distance is not a consideration it seems...
I can not see any suggestion that the action is at C but indeed the suggestion seems such "spookey action at a distance" is instant..... now why could this be so? and leaving aside questions as to the medium or as to the particles that may produce the spookey action I ask could it be that there may be a highway hidden in this stuff that may allow "instant" communication??? .......and of course if such instant communication is possible then no doubt if there are any inteligent folk out there would they not be using such a system?... If so then 200 years ago whatever maybe all the smart folk of the universe picked up upon our existence in an instant.

So can we build a spookey action at a distance communication device?

alex
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:25 AM
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AND...the avatar is a photo of me although the hair and beard are now longer now it is a fair likeness I think.
WHY...my daughter insists that I look this way. I shaved etc once and she didnot talk to me for weeks..my clean shaven appearance reminds her of a serial killer she saw on tv years ago apparently...whatever but I do it for her ...

alex
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  #18  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
AND...the avatar is a photo of me although the hair and beard are now longer now it is a fair likeness I think.
WHY...my daughter insists that I look this way. I shaved etc once and she didnot talk to me for weeks..my clean shaven appearance reminds her of a serial killer she saw on tv years ago apparently...whatever but I do it for her ...

alex
Hmmm. She could be onto something there. Recognise this guy?
Peter
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  #19  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:09 PM
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So can we build a spookey action at a distance communication device?

alex
This is questionable.. because it would violate the causality principle(s) (cause first, consequence after).
No information can propagate FTL through space. (perhaps if the medium is not space.. )
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  #20  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:58 PM
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The instant action at a distance of quantum entangling cannot send information. Unless you can figure out a way to send information by flipping coins where a coin somewhere else has the reverse face as you flip your coin. You cannot send a signal with a random outcome of an event.
Bert
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