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Old 12-10-2019, 08:43 AM
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New Larger Format CMOS Cameras - the other costs

As has been posted elsewhere, QHY and ZWO are producing/working on new large format CMOS cameras (QHY600 and ASI6200 respectively). The costs, specs, etc of those cameras are in those threads. I'd like to discuss the other costs that are going to be involved with going to these cameras, assuming you want to get maximum value out of the camera (e.g. minimise/eliminate vignetting) and have none of the requisite gear.

What size filters are going to be needed? What choices are there?

Filter wheels - what choices are there for these filters for at least 7 filters? The weight is going to get interesting with what I presume will be larger and heavier filter wheels. The "back end" of some setups will become even heavier and may require some form of counterweights at the front (or more).

Spacers and adapters - what size should we be looking at for these as well?

Focusers - I doubt most of these will be a problem?

OAGs - This is going to be interesting. I guess most people will just go for the manufacturer's option?

Anything else? Tilt adapter?

So with all of the above, consider how much extra cost is going to be involved with getting one of these cameras. I know that I am.
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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FLI sells a 5/7 filter wheel, that means 50mm round or square filters.

FLI CFW 5/7 is around US$2500 or so. Astrodon 50mm round filters are around AUD$2500. LRGB Ha O111 S11 (5nm). You can get them cheaper from Astronomiks. Not sure if they do a 5nm narrowband.

For a full frame sensor you need 50mm round filters. For larger than full frame you need 50mm square filters.
I see QHY has a larger format filter wheel for around US$1300.

Focusers need to be around 3 inch. Larger if possible but 3 inches I would estimate is close to the minimum. I would opt for a slightly larger focuser. My CFF 105 has a 3.2 inch focuser and it is illuminating my Sony full frame camera quite well.

OAG? There are a few now. Teleskop Services sells one, Optec has a nice looking one including a version with motorised focuser (more for remote imagers). MMOAG is still being sold. Figure about US$700 + shipping so around AUD$1300.

Adapters are around AUD$200 each. I use Josh Bunn on this forum, he did some nice adapters for my CFF recently. A lot cheaper than Precise Parts.

You need a guide camera. Lodestar 2 or Sbig STi or QHY 5. Around $800.

Software. The Sky X is an all inclusive software and does it all. Not sure what it costs. Probably about $400.

All these things are more expensive at the moment as the Aussie dollar is at a very low level of about 67 cents so it becomes at least double when you factor in shipping and GST and costs.

Full frame is definitely more expensive but a camera like the QHY600 could
potentially be a very long lasting camera and take some amazing images.

QHY often package their cameras with an all in one solution like built in filter wheel and guider. Not sure if they will do that with the 600 but it would be nice as it would make everything simpler.

No need for extra counterweights on the scope except of course on the mount itself.

A tilt adapter is probably a good thing to have in the imaging train. Better than packers.

Greg.

Last edited by gregbradley; 12-10-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:51 AM
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And a computer that d/l 60MP files. Think at least USB3 support needed.

Edit: the ASI and QHY L and XL FW’s are sub USD$1000. QHY is offering a 10% discount on the L/XL FW with their QHY600 purchase. Dunno about ASI yet.
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
And a computer that d/l 60MP files. Think at least USB3 support needed.

Edit: the ASI and QHY L and XL FWs are sub USD$1000. QHY is offering a 10% discount on the L/XL FW with their QHY600 purchase. Dunno about ASI yet.
QHY want US$5000 for their mono model and $8000 for their Pro model (not sure what the Pro model offers).

ZWO ASI600 is US$3,999.

Files would most likely be a lot more than 60mb. I think more like 102mb which is what the Sony A7riv (same sensor) has. My 16803 CCD has 32mb files.

Greg.
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:19 PM
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The pro offers a larger buffer/memory & fibre channel ports (I believe they offer 2 so both can be bonded to a single faster interface). Fibre channel is faster than GigE & therefore faster than USB3.

Presumably the file sizes are large enough to "warrant" such a connectivity interface technology that provides faster downloads - especially for the professional series, whereas amateur/consumer versions one can "wait" a little longer with USB3 interfaces.

I'm hoping to pick ZWO MM as that is significantly cheaper than the QHY. You're right that the total cost of the MM is going to be significantly more and I think it's going to be the filters themselves especially if going for the Astrodon or Chroma 3nm's. Are you sure of the QHYCFW3 being $1300? Even in Australian, compared to CyclopsOptics QHYCFW3 is USD$630 only (AUD$930). Even in Australian taxes, etc. that's a significant AUD$370 overhead.

You raised a good point about the need of a hefty focuser. The ASI combo (camera/FW) is estimated to be 1.63kg without any interface adapters, filters in the FW, nor OAG. This shouldn't be a problem for my 250CRS (where the focuser is the secondary, although imaging circle is only 40mm + vignette), nor 125SDP with its helicoid focuser (imaging circle of 88mm), however it'll probably be too much for my FSQ-85ED.
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
FLI sells a 5/7 filter wheel, that means 50mm round or square filters.

FLI CFW 5/7 is around US$2500 or so. Astrodon 50mm round filters are around AUD$2500. LRGB Ha O111 S11 (5nm). You can get them cheaper from Astronomiks. Not sure if they do a 5nm narrowband.

For a full frame sensor you need 50mm round filters. For larger than full frame you need 50mm square filters.
I see QHY has a larger format filter wheel for around US$1300.

Focusers need to be around 3 inch. Larger if possible but 3 inches I would estimate is close to the minimum. I would opt for a slightly larger focuser. My CFF 105 has a 3.2 inch focuser and it is illuminating my Sony full frame camera quite well.

OAG? There are a few now. Teleskop Services sells one, Optec has a nice looking one including a version with motorised focuser (more for remote imagers). MMOAG is still being sold. Figure about US$700 + shipping so around AUD$1300.

Adapters are around AUD$200 each. I use Josh Bunn on this forum, he did some nice adapters for my CFF recently. A lot cheaper than Precise Parts.

You need a guide camera. Lodestar 2 or Sbig STi or QHY 5. Around $800.

Software. The Sky X is an all inclusive software and does it all. Not sure what it costs. Probably about $400.

All these things are more expensive at the moment as the Aussie dollar is at a very low level of about 67 cents so it becomes at least double when you factor in shipping and GST and costs.

Full frame is definitely more expensive but a camera like the QHY600 could
potentially be a very long lasting camera and take some amazing images.

QHY often package their cameras with an all in one solution like built in filter wheel and guider. Not sure if they will do that with the 600 but it would be nice as it would make everything simpler.

No need for extra counterweights on the scope except of course on the mount itself.

A tilt adapter is probably a good thing to have in the imaging train. Better than packers.

Greg.
Thank you Greg for writing all that. After reading the requirements so plainly written, I am liking my tiny sensor requiring only 1.25" filters in the wsg-8 QSI body even more now and I that it will last many more years. 20-minute 18MB subs are easy on the laptop too!
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:54 PM
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Oh yes that was for their largest filter wheel the 9 position 50mm square or round.

The 7 position 50mm round wheel is:

https://optcorp.com/products/qhy-3rd...e-filter-wheel

US$650 + shipping and GST so around $1200 landed.

Greg.
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Old 12-10-2019, 02:03 PM
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I was reading a thread about these new CMOS cameras and one poster had me interested.

He commented that these CMOS cameras are still early and there were a number of issues across various models.

What issues are there? From what I have read amp glow seems to be a problem with some. Cooling and condensation was another. Lack of cooling power another although these sensors are low read noise even at warmer temperatures.

No hardware binning only software binning and its not as effective.

What are users of these types of cameras finding?

Greg.
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:12 PM
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lazjen (Chris)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slawomir View Post
Thank you Greg for writing all that. After reading the requirements so plainly written, I am liking my tiny sensor requiring only 1.25" filters in the wsg-8 QSI body even more now and I that it will last many more years. 20-minute 18MB subs are easy on the laptop too!
Suavi, this is part of why I started this thread and I, too would like to thank Greg and the others for the discussion points. These new cameras might be "cheap" compared to what's been available so far, but for a lot of us, it's not going to be simply change the camera over and go for it. It's effectively a whole new "ecosystem".
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
FLI sells a 5/7 filter wheel, that means 50mm round or square filters.

FLI CFW 5/7 is around US$2500 or so. Astrodon 50mm round filters are around AUD$2500. LRGB Ha O111 S11 (5nm). You can get them cheaper from Astronomiks. Not sure if they do a 5nm narrowband.

For a full frame sensor you need 50mm round filters. For larger than full frame you need 50mm square filters.
I see QHY has a larger format filter wheel for around US$1300.
I also saw a 10 slot FLI FW - it was really a 2 x 5 slot, with 8 filled and 2 empty. It was a "balanced" or symmetrical FW - looked interesting if somewhat expensive.

I saw some other 3rd party filter wheels as well. Seems like there's plenty of options.

Given all the other costs, I can see for me some compromises on the filters. I'd like to go larger, but I suspect I'll go for the best 50mm round I can afford at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Focusers need to be around 3 inch. Larger if possible but 3 inches I would estimate is close to the minimum. I would opt for a slightly larger focuser. My CFF 105 has a 3.2 inch focuser and it is illuminating my Sony full frame camera quite well.
As was mentioned in another post, the focuser is going to need to be able to handle a bit of weight, so something fairly decent.

Would a Moonlite Nitecrawler be something that could work? There's 3" and 3.5" options. This would solve focuser and rotator then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
OAG? There are a few now. Teleskop Services sells one, Optec has a nice looking one including a version with motorised focuser (more for remote imagers). MMOAG is still being sold. Figure about US$700 + shipping so around AUD$1300.
Yes. I think getting parfocal filters will avoid the need to get a(motorised) focuser on the OAG - at least for me anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Adapters are around AUD$200 each. I use Josh Bunn on this forum, he did some nice adapters for my CFF recently. A lot cheaper than Precise Parts.
Yes, I've used Josh's services as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
You need a guide camera. Lodestar 2 or Sbig STi or QHY 5. Around $800.
For me, this is probably the one thing I can bring from my existing setup. ASI174 is working well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Software. The Sky X is an all inclusive software and does it all. Not sure what it costs. Probably about $400.
There's more options here that are getting better every day, for example: Voyager (about 120 euros) or NINA (free). ekos/INDI too, of course (free).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
All these things are more expensive at the moment as the Aussie dollar is at a very low level of about 67 cents so it becomes at least double when you factor in shipping and GST and costs.

Full frame is definitely more expensive but a camera like the QHY600 could
potentially be a very long lasting camera and take some amazing images.
Assuming the binning "works as advertised", it should be a versatile camera.

And, yes, the Aussie dollar is going to be a major problem for these purchases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
QHY often package their cameras with an all in one solution like built in filter wheel and guider. Not sure if they will do that with the 600 but it would be nice as it would make everything simpler.
I hope both QHY and ZWO offer this - and offer good setups for it, not just the basics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
No need for extra counterweights on the scope except of course on the mount itself.
For some setups, there's a lot of weight at the back of the scope. It might not be possible to push the scope further up the saddle mount to help balance the DEC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
A tilt adapter is probably a good thing to have in the imaging train. Better than packers.
I think the ZWO camera has the tilt adapter on it, but comments have indicated that it's not convenient to access, especially if you've got a large FW attached (and guess what, that's very likely). I'm going to factor on putting in a "3rd party" tilt adapter to the image train.
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Old 12-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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And a computer that d/l 60MP files. Think at least USB3 support needed.
From what I've read, the files are 102Mb in size.

Yes, the computer at the mount will need at least USB3. Some options look like have ethernet connections, so that could be interesting.

It will also mean your image processing system will need to be a bit beefier too - at least for me, I've got that part sorted.
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Old 12-10-2019, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
I was reading a thread about these new CMOS cameras and one poster had me interested.

He commented that these CMOS cameras are still early and there were a number of issues across various models.

What issues are there? From what I have read amp glow seems to be a problem with some. Cooling and condensation was another. Lack of cooling power another although these sensors are low read noise even at warmer temperatures.

No hardware binning only software binning and its not as effective.

What are users of these types of cameras finding?

Greg.
ZWO is going for 30 below ambient for cooling, which makes me a bit uneasy for Qld summers - I guess the counter is the weather is so often lousy here for astro that it may not matter.

Binning: I'd like to know more about this as well. I've seen the discussions, but I'm getting an impression that the binning for this camera (QHY in this case, not sure if ZWO will be different) is better than what's been done before. I don't understand it right now, perhaps it's being compared to the popular ASI1600 where the software binning is a fairly useless option.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:01 PM
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I also saw a 10 slot FLI FW - it was really a 2 x 5 slot, with 8 filled and 2 empty. It was a "balanced" or symmetrical FW - looked interesting if somewhat expensive.

Yes that Centreline filter wheel is expensive but nicely balanced as the CFW 5/7 really sticks out to one side a lot. I have mine "upside down" with the guide camera sticking out the opposite side to help balance it better.

I saw some other 3rd party filter wheels as well. Seems like there's plenty of options.

Given all the other costs, I can see for me some compromises on the filters. I'd like to go larger, but I suspect I'll go for the best 50mm round I can afford at the time.

50mm round is correct for full frame which is a 43.26mm diagonal from memory. No real gain by going larger.


As was mentioned in another post, the focuser is going to need to be able to handle a bit of weight, so something fairly decent.

Would a Moonlite Nitecrawler be something that could work? There's 3" and 3.5" options. This would solve focuser and rotator then.

Moonlite have a good name so I assume it would be fine. Anything Starlight Express 3 inch or above would be fine. I have a 3.2 inch one on my CFF refractor and its divine. I used to have the 3.5 inch one on a TEC180FL and I also had to upgrade the 2.7 inch focuser on my Tak FS152 to the 4 inch focuser as it vignetted too heavily.


Yes. I think getting parfocal filters will avoid the need to get a(motorised) focuser on the OAG - at least for me anyway.

Yes motorised OAG is a bit of gimmick. Once focused the OAG doesn't need further attention. Guide stars being perfectly focused is not a requirement as the guiding software calculates the centroid to a small fraction of a pixel. Subtle differences between filters would make no difference to guiding.
It would to imaging. I focus the luminance of my Astrodons and its correct for the narrowband and the RGB as well. Very convenient.

Yes, I've used Josh's services as well.



For me, this is probably the one thing I can bring from my existing setup. ASI174 is working well.



There's more options here that are getting better every day, for example: Voyager (about 120 euros) or NINA (free). ekos/INDI too, of course (free).



Assuming the binning "works as advertised", it should be a versatile camera.

I read a thread on this on CNN and basically hardware binning is not possible with these CMOS sensors as they are. Its all software binning and so some of the advantage of binning is lost but not all. Its more effective on CCDs.

And, yes, the Aussie dollar is going to be a major problem for these purchases.

I'll say.

I hope both QHY and ZWO offer this - and offer good setups for it, not just the basics.



For some setups, there's a lot of weight at the back of the scope. It might not be possible to push the scope further up the saddle mount to help balance the DEC.

I have often had heavy imaging trains and its never really been a problem. You need to have large enough dovetail plate holder so you can move the scope around and on refractors you can position the rings to help with the balancing. Perhaps a Newt may be different there as the imaging train hangs off the side (always looks wrong).

I think the ZWO camera has the tilt adapter on it, but comments have indicated that it's not convenient to access, especially if you've got a large FW attached (and guess what, that's very likely). I'm going to factor on putting in a "3rd party" tilt adapter to the image train.
Teleskop Services sells a nice one. Josh can make one too.

Once you have a filter wheel and OAG etc then in the future you simply plug the new camera into that existing setup. It would just require probably one adapter to attach the camera to the filter wheel if its a different brand. So its largely a one time cost.

Greg.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:11 PM
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By my understanding, binning still increases SNR to some extent but not in the same league as a CCD. Binning a CCD combines the pixels and they are read once, so 2x2 binning combines the signal of the four pixels but you only get a single shot of read noise (It might be more than the unbinned read noise, the cynic in me thinks that looks like a free lunch to have up to four times the signal to noise as 2x2 binning)



The binning in a CMOS is done in software after the pixels have been read so there is no read noise advantage.

Last edited by The_bluester; 12-10-2019 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:38 PM
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Dealer hat on for a bit, I've been in discussions with QHY's USA rep about the new IMX455 based cameras (aka QHY600) and it certainly breaks new ground with combined QE and read noise.

Dealer hat off for the remainder.

The CMOS amp glow problem has not gone away. So if you wan to push the envelope for very long and deep sub-images this will prove to be problematical.
To be sure, you can stack shorter exposures and there seems little doubt the IMX455 will run rings around CCD sensors such as the KAI11002.

With the KAF16803 (my current CCD camera which has a delta-T of 60 degrees or so and zero fixed pattern noise.) the waters are decidedly muddier.

My comparison of the QHY183C to the STX16803 showed the CCD to be far cleaner. This may not be true with the IMX455
...but given they are both cutting edge Sony CMOS, maybe nothing has changed other than acreage.

With 3.76um pixels the IMX sensor gives way over-sampled data for my RC. Binned it goes to 7.5um and 15 megapixels. So, smaller chip, similar sampling, better QE and lower read noise but amp noise limits the exposure time.

I am still tempted to pull the trigger, but at $A8k...not exactly chump change... so I am waiting to see some real world data before I drop that sort of coin.

I note that a QHY600 is now in the skilled hands of Martin Pugh with a very fast RASA to boot. I wait for his results with keen interest!
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Old 12-10-2019, 10:47 PM
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According to this: https://www.facebook.com/QHYCCD/post...7635110006430/ - allegedly no amp glow for 300 sec dark, so that's not bad - certainly much better than for the ASI1600 sensor. Wonder what it will be like at 10, 15, 30 min?

I've found that it's no real problem dealing with the amp glow in the ASI1600 with 10 min images, so if this much less, perhaps those longer exposures might be possible. For me, I don't mind the larger number of frames required with shorter exposures - processing power is fairly cheap these days.

Edit: I fell into the "trap" of wandering off topic with everyone else. I suggest move the sensor/camera discussions to their own threads and move back to the original aim of this topic. I think it would be worthwhile to hear other alternatives to what's been suggested, or other things that may not have been considered so far.
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Old 13-10-2019, 09:40 AM
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Let me add some context.

Raw files off the QHY600C are 119Mb, debayered they are 240Mb.
Zero amp glow.
3 readout modes - photo mode, high gain mode and Ultra Full Well Mode.
Removing tilt and perfecting collimation on an f2.2 scope is a frickin nightmare.

The camera is large - 89mm in diameter and 181mm long.
I also splashed out on the mono version - this will require special filters if you are using a RASA. I acquired a NB set from Baader.

I will post images once everything is sorted and when I get back from overseas.
Cheers
Martin
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Old 13-10-2019, 10:01 AM
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Looking forward to seeing some results with the camera. Any chance on putting it on another scope for a test of the camera? Did you get the Pro model?

Here is a recent article I found on tilt that may help:

https://aiastro.wordpress.com/2019/0...lt-adjustment/

At F2.2 you most likely will not get all corners and centre at the same level of focus as this article discusses. You want all 4 corners to focus the same though.

Greg.
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Old 13-10-2019, 10:29 AM
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No spare scopes Greg. Got the Pro version for both cameras.

Thanks for the link.
Cheers
Martin
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Old 13-10-2019, 03:52 PM
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I also splashed out on the mono version - this will require special filters if you are using a RASA. I acquired a NB set from Baader.
Any particular reason you got Baader filters?
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