CCD or CMOS or what??

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

In the early days of CCD's being applied to astronomy it was easy to refer to cameras as "DSLR's" and alternative CCD cameras as "CCD's"
This has become a catch cry over the years and many (all?) CCD cameras and associated software are just "CCD's"....

But the recent move towards CMOS technology means that in a few years most of our "CCD" cameras will actually be "CMOS" cameras.
I can't see the market/ user base suddenly calling all our cameras/ software "CMOS".....
Maybe we need a more generic term for a electronic chip based camera...or do we just accept the label "CCD" as an acceptable term for them all - like Hoover for vacuum cleaners??????

[Wavytone]

Simple - the obvious term is astrocamera - as while some even share the same sensors as some cameras, there are numerous differences specific to the Astro application:

- must be operated tethered to a PC to view and control the camera,
- no knobs and duals to twiddle - all controlled remotely from a tethered PC;
- no battery internally, no view finder, no onboard storage, no aperture controls,
- monochromatic (no Bayer filter),
- designed to connect to a telescope, not camera lenses;
- no in-camera controls for focus or aperture, and the big one -
- thermoelectric cooling.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

I don't disagree...but not all CCD/CMOS cameras are only used by astronomers - other user groups may drive the change -thinking of Imaging Source etc.
Not all CMOS cameras are mono and not all are Mono....

[Wavytone]

... and not all astrocameras are sold by Imaging Source, either.

[Rkonrad (Richard)]

I do not do AP but interesting thread many friends have argued this

[JA]

I've always preferred to name the digital camera according to its general type / application, such as DSLR, Compact camera, Bridge Camera, Astrocamera, etc.., rather than by the technology employed by its sensor (CCD or CMOS).

As an aside, in the early days CCD image sensors were also used in DSLRs (Nikon D1, Canon 1D, Kodak DCS, etc). Nowdays they mostly use CMOS image sensors.

Best
JA

[skysurfer]

Originally Posted by Wavytone

Simple - the obvious term is astrocamera - as while some even share the same sensors as some cameras, there are numerous differences specific to the Astro application:

- must be operated tethered to a PC to view and control the camera,
- no knobs and duals to twiddle - all controlled remotely from a tethered PC;
- no battery internally, no view finder, no onboard storage, no aperture controls,
- monochromatic (no Bayer filter),
- designed to connect to a telescope, not camera lenses;
- no in-camera controls for focus or aperture,
- and the big one : thermoelectric cooling.

Indeed these reasons in bold are why I don't want an astro camera.
I don't know why it is in 2018 not possible that these cameras can not work with builtin SD card, battery, basic controls and even no smartphone app. A small device like a smartphone or tablet is much easier to use in the field.

A modern SLR is much more versatile for astrophotography, modern sensors (particularly the Sony A7 series) are very sensitive and no cable jungles.

[rcheshire (Rowland)]

CDC - Consumer Digital Camera - covers all designs ( not just DSLR). SSC - Scientific Specialist Camera or SAC - Specialist Astro Camera. They are specialist devices. You could add a lower case c for CCD or an m for MOS.

CDCm - CDCc

SACc SACm

That would be clear enough for me...

[gregbradley]

I think the term scientific camera is most applicable.

Here is a list of uses that FLI markets their cameras to:

deal For:
X-ray Applications
Fluorescence
Bioluminescence
Chemiluminescence
Solar Panel Inspection
Gel Documentation
Astronomical Imaging
Digital Radiography
Forensic Imaging

As you can see most are scientific but a few are for production quality control. I suppose that comes more under the category of machine vision.

I notice FLI do not name their cameras beyond their marketing title like Proline or Hyperion. Perhaps to not limit their markets.

Greg.

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

I like the term "astro camera" even if they are used for different jobs. The job mine will be used for primarily is astronomy. If I wanted one for the microscope I'd call it a microscope camera, even though it could be used for different jobs also.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by rcheshire

CDC - Consumer Digital Camera - covers all designs ( not just DSLR). SSC - Scientific Specialist Camera or SAC - Specialist Astro Camera. They are specialist devices. You could add a lower case c for CCD or an m for MOS.

CDCm - CDCc

SACc SACm

That would be clear enough for me...

The CDC one wouldn't work for me, because whether it's a DSLR or pocket cam matters more to me than the chip type.



Also is there a non specialist astrocam, i.e. a GAC? My ASI 120 might be a GAC because it gets used for anything astro. Adding to the confusion is the fact that people can still own a SAC and not be involved in anything Astro

[sharkbite]

What about "APC" for "Astrophotography camera"?

its a good "TLA" (three letter acronym)

It would work well attached to an ATM GEM OTA taking photos of DSO's.

Doesn't matter if its a CCD or something else.

[Wavytone]

The winner will be the one that works effectively in Google searches - as vendors twig this will connect buyers to their web page they’ll all fall in line.

The term that already passes this test is “astro cam”.
APC and the others fail this test.

[redbeard (Damien)]

Hoover Cam!

[rcheshire (Rowland)]

Originally Posted by N1

The CDC one wouldn't work for me, because whether it's a DSLR or pocket cam matters more to me than the chip type.

CDC is generic and describes a range of architectures. The c or m is just being cute...

Also is there a non specialist astrocam, i.e. a GAC? My ASI 120 might be a GAC because it gets used for anything astro. Adding to the confusion is the fact that people can still own a SAC and not be involved in anything Astro

Astrophotography is a specialist application. Not exactly point and shoot.

But waytone has nailed it. It's all about sales.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by rcheshire

Astrophotography is a specialist application. Not exactly point and shoot.

That's right, so stating "specialist astro" sounds redundant, kinda like "ATM machine".

Anyhow, it's unlikely for retailers to agree on some obscure acronym in order to further sales targets. Meanwhile, SAC & Co are likely to be used by those "in the know".

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by JA

I've always preferred to name the digital camera according to its general type / application, such as DSLR, Compact camera, Bridge Camera, Astrocamera, etc.., rather than by the technology employed by its sensor (CCD or CMOS).

As an aside, in the early days CCD image sensors were also used in DSLRs (Nikon D1, Canon 1D, Kodak DCS, etc). Nowdays they mostly use CMOS image sensors.

Best
JA

Mostly use CMOS? I know of no major camera manufacturer who is still using CCD in their current range DSLRs. CMOS offers the ability to better miniaturise the circuitry (more so than CCD), better power consumption, and better SNR performance. Things like micro-lensing is easier to implement on CMOS too.

CCD is dead with regards to cameras (DSLRs). Has been for years.

With regards to purpose built astro imaging cameras, the same will happen as what happened with DSLRs - within 5 years, CCD based cameras will be non-existent. I'm 100% positive of this.

Does CMOS offer better image quality? I would very CLEARLY say NO. I had a 1D (4mp CCD) and to be bluntly honest, it CRAPS on the IQ from my 8mp 1D Mark IIN and 60D. i regret selling the 1D. I have not been in a position to try newer DSLRs such as the 1Dx or 1Dx II etc, so perhaps things have improved, but I seriously doubt it.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

OK,
So are we going to start the trend of not referring to cameras we use as CCD cameras or CMOS cameras, but call them "AstroCams"?
Also for software and applications? No more "CCD Astronomy" but "AstroCam Astronomy"??????????

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by Merlin66

OK,
So are we going to start the trend of not referring to cameras we use as CCD cameras or CMOS cameras, but call them "AstroCams"?
Also for software and applications? No more "CCD Astronomy" but "AstroCam Astronomy"??????????

I have to lol at that Ken. lol hard.

[JA]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Mostly use CMOS? I know of no major camera manufacturer who is still using CCD in their current range DSLRs.

Well I suppose it hinges on what you mean by nowdays, but in this era/last few years, It was only as late as 2014/15 when Hasselbald started using CMOS. Sony's last CCD camera was released in 2010. (I think it was earlier for Nikon and earlier still for canon). The reason I say mostly, is not because I don't think it is all, but rather as a potential defence against the pedant who insists - What about camera XYZ (obscure and low volume) that employs it.

Originally Posted by dpastern

CMOS offers the ability to better miniaturise the circuitry (more so than CCD), better power consumption, and better SNR performance. Things like micro-lensing is easier to implement on CMOS too.

CCD is dead with regards to cameras (DSLRs). Has been for years.

In the words of "Andy" from "Little Britain" .... "Yeah, I know"

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Originally Posted by dpastern

Does CMOS offer better image quality? I would very CLEARLY say NO. I had a 1D (4mp CCD) and to be bluntly honest, it CRAPS on the IQ from my 8mp 1D Mark IIN and 60D. i regret selling the 1D. I have not been in a position to try newer DSLRs such as the 1Dx or 1Dx II etc, so perhaps things have improved, but I seriously doubt it.

I don't.

Best
JA