Go Back   IceInSpace > General Astronomy > Observational and Visual Astronomy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 15-02-2019, 08:56 AM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 5,704
Thumbs down Procyon B... no joy last night

Last night weather in melbourne was pretty good, so I tried my luck (both visual and photographical) on Procyon B....


While Sirius B was quite easy target for my C11 at ~300x (despite dusk and Moon), Procyon B remained hidden in the glare from primary (it is ~4" away).


I am thinking now about making some sort of contraption to mechanically remove the primary glare from interferring with observation of B-component...
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (Procyon-b.png)
4.7 KB43 views
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15-02-2019, 10:37 AM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 922
Id like to hear more about this project of yours.

Like where do you position the occliding element to be in focus?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15-02-2019, 10:41 AM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 5,704
Hi Markus,

I started the new thread in DIY section..
I will try to use optical fiber, placed in the eyepiece focal plane - it should attenuate the light of the primary sufficiently to expose the B component.. I hope :-)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15-02-2019, 04:05 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Looks good Bojan...clever.

Ive not tried Procyon for a while due to utter failure a few times.
Even in a 150mm Mak or 130mm Apo..This has spured me on to try again.

Procyons Primary is yellowish with a WHITE DWARF secondary..and as usual I'd expect that PRIMARY to make the SECONDARY appear quite blue at the eyepiece,this as a contrast effect.

I Look forward to trying again in good seeing ..sometimes a light red filter can work to mitigate flare Ive found .
Cheers bigjoe.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17-02-2019, 06:41 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,776
Looks like a nice evening - I'm getting the MK91 ready. Question is whether the seeing will oblige (last week it was terrible).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17-02-2019, 07:24 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Looks like a nice evening - I'm getting the MK91 ready. Question is whether the seeing will oblige (last week it was terrible).
Well Wavy ...if anythings got a chance at Procyon on these forums one would have to be the big Santel..SUPERB optics, aperture and it's small secondary.
Good luck I'm waiting for better seeing IN THE TRIPLET armed with Tak Abbes !

bigjoe.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17-02-2019, 11:12 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,776
Hi Joe yes it split it, easily seen at 450X along with some of the wider components (there are 8 in the system). Seeing was quite a lot better than I expected.

Its considerably harder than Sirius as the magnitude difference is greater AND the separation is half that of Sirius.

So in short if you haven’t spilt Sirius easily you won’t split Procyon.

Last edited by Wavytone; 17-02-2019 at 11:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18-02-2019, 07:01 AM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 5,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Hi Joe yes it split it, easily seen at 450X along with some of the wider compo...
So in short if you havenít spilt Sirius easily you wonít split Procyon.

And if you did split Sirius, it doesn't mean you will split Procyon...


Last two nights I didn't even try... weather in VIC was not good.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18-02-2019, 11:09 AM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,776
Hi Bojan, I’d put Procyon as in the extremely hard group. I was counting the diffraction rings around A to estimate the separation as I could see 4 rings, knowing their spacing for my scope. Secondary appears very faint just outside the rings.

Last edited by Wavytone; 18-02-2019 at 03:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18-02-2019, 09:05 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Hi Joe yes it split it, easily seen at 450X along with some of the wider components (there are 8 in the system). Seeing was quite a lot better than I expected.

Its considerably harder than Sirius as the magnitude difference is greater AND the separation is half that of Sirius.

So in short if you haven’t spilt Sirius easily you won’t split Procyon.
Wavy and Bojan; its amazing just how many components Procyon has ..just go to Stelle doppie website and check .SOME are many minutes from the primary and faint.

No luck as cloudy weather not helping in Sydney, will try next few days..I should be able to do it with 130mm of FPL 53 Triplet .

LET'S see..I'm determined and armed with Takahashi Orthos!
www.stelledoppie.it/index2.php?iddoppia=34859
I KNEW youd do it BTW Wavy.
bigjoe.

Last edited by bigjoe; 18-02-2019 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Add
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18-02-2019, 10:42 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,776
Joe it’s going to be very hard with a 130, even if you had an AP130GT.

One issue is to make sure you use enough magnification to be sure what you’re seeing is actually B and not one of the other comparisons. Hence why I used 450X with approx a 3 arc min field. At lower power I expect you’ll mistake one of the other companions for B.

Next problem is having any useful way to estimate separation at this scale - I don’t have a filar micrometer. Instead I’ve worked out the spacing of the minima of the diffraction rings (ie the gaps) in arc seconds for my scope so can estimate separation from that, seems to work on the occasions I’ve tried it. The radius of the inner dark ring in my case is 0.6 arc sec. Second ring 1.1, third 1.6 and so-on. In your scope 1.1, 1.9, 2.8... so the separation is about the diameter of the second dark ring.

Next problem is the dim companion vs the diffraction rings from A. In a smaller scope the diffraction pattern will be wider (in arc seconds) and for smaller apertures B may be buried under a diffraction ring.

Last issue is optical fatigue within your eye from the brightness of A, you’re likely to be unable to see B. Some means of blocking A may help eg shift it just off the field of view, or using an occulting bar if you can arrange one in your eyepiece. A premium-contrast Kellner, ortho or plossl could be adapted for this.

Last edited by Wavytone; 18-02-2019 at 11:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 19-02-2019, 12:04 AM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjoe View Post
its amazing just how many components Procyon has ..just go to Stelle doppie website and check .
Wow.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (procyon.JPG)
48.9 KB20 views
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 19-02-2019, 12:59 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonius View Post
Wow.
Yep its EASY to get confused, thats why you have to KNOW YOUR FIELD in a go to eyepiece.

KNOW what 4.6" LOOKS LIKE in that eyepiece and the position here PA 316 NNW, but in a reverse mirror diagonal its NNE a MISTAKE made by Many!!!
good luck if you try!
bigjoe.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 19-02-2019, 01:05 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Re Procyon

Well done Wavy..the last person I heard do it was famous Astro author James E Bakich in his 11 inch in the DESERT!
He had it verified by onlookers.
SO not much of a chance in my SCT which has too thick diffraction rings so no to it..possibly the 130mm Refractor.

My field in a 2.5mm Vixen in the 130mm Triplet is eyepiece field stop 2.1x 57.3 radians=120.33.

120.33ų910 FOCAL LENGTH of SCOPE
Or 0.132 x 60 minutes or 7.9 minutes of arc or 474 " and it will be 1.7x Barlowed if necessary.

Procyon B is 4.7 seconds from a GLARING PRIMARY..just on 1 percent of the field away and at PA 316 DEGREES OR NNW PRECEDING so the PRIMARY will always be hard to keep out of the way ...SIRIUS much EASIER, as the pup is FOLLOWING 10" from the primary and you just wait for Sirius A to get out of the field and there is the Pup FOLLOWING near directly EAST, which is much brighter than Procyon B!!

In my DIAGONAL its MIRROR REVERSE so NNE ..I KNOW WERE TO LOOK ..BUT GLARE and the FAINT SECONDARY Mag 10.8 could be hidden in the outer diffraction rings (still bright enough to swamp the secondary) hopefully its in space in a minima..AIRY DISK will be 1 sec of arc
to first minima BUT it will be well clear at 4.6" of arc..so I stand a chance.

SEEING GLARE and SCATTER and lack of aperture may be my worst enemy!

Im going to have to keep Procyon A OUT of the FIELD entirely ..good tracking crucial..NEAR 4 SECONDS OUT..and have a FOCUSED FLAT field at the border .

I've got many mag 11 SECONDARIES with fainter PRIMARIES doing that ..BUT this one is a CHALLENGE..WILL NEED VERY GOOD SUB ARC SEEING.

My mag limit is WELL over 13 nearer 14 ..and Procyon is very high in the sky..so its TERRIBLY difficult but doable Moons full ATM TOO.
I'll report back in another post Wavy if I do SPLIT it.

KNOWING WERE TO LOOK And JUDGING 4.6 sec in my STANDARD go to EYEPIECE IS HUGE.. PA 316, is a BIG HELP
Done it many times before with fainter Primaries..But seeing is CRUCIAL.

The 36 inch JAMES LICK REFRACTOR SPOTS IT REGULARLY IN GOOD SEEING.As a matter of fact Procyon B was only discovered as recently as 1896 by JAMES SHAEBERLE at the LICK, no one had seen it before!

Amateurs almost NEVER see it no matter how HARD they TRY. ONLY HANDFULS ..Wavy has done extremely well here.

Last I heard american ASTRO author Michael E Bakich saw it and had it confirmed by others nearby , in his 11 inch starmaster at TWIGHLIGHT, a GOOD time to see it, as THE PRIMARIES glare is MITIGATED!

As I said I'll not use my 925 SCT or 250 dob ,too bright diffraction rings and spikes ..dont want masking either...THERE not for these kinds of HUGE MAGNITUDE DELTA DOUBLES.
Maybe the 150mm Mak has a passable chance as 130mm and 910 focal is asking a bit much..no matter how good it is at around .95 Strehl!
APERTURE and DESIGN RULE FOLKS!!

Last edited by bigjoe; 21-02-2019 at 12:28 AM. Reason: Add
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 20-02-2019, 11:13 PM
Tropo-Bob (Bob)
Registered User

Tropo-Bob is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Cairns
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Hi Joe yes it split it, easily seen at 450X along with some of the wider components (there are 8 in the system). Seeing was quite a lot better than I expected.

Its considerably harder than Sirius as the magnitude difference is greater AND the separation is half that of Sirius.

So in short if you havenít spilt Sirius easily you wonít split Procyon.
That's a remarkable feat Nick; very, very well done.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 21-02-2019, 07:26 AM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 5,704
Tried again last night both visually and photographically but no luck.
Weather in Melbourne was quite good (before clouds rolled in and started raining), Sirius B was easy... Procyon B should have been just shy of the edge of the Procyon A disk (as indicated on the scaled orbit drawings), but there was no trace of anything permanent on 2000x stack.
(Attached frames are from movies taken with Canon 60D (crop mode), 1/60, ISO6400).
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (c_07.jpg)
74.3 KB30 views
Click for full-size image (c_01.jpg)
117.4 KB53 views
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 21-02-2019, 12:06 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,528
Bojan,

Is that Sirius on the right and Procyon on the left?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 21-02-2019, 12:15 PM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 5,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by mental4astro View Post
Bojan,

Is that Sirius on the right and Procyon on the left?
Yes :-)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 21-02-2019, 02:04 PM
bigjoe's Avatar
bigjoe (Joe)
Registered User

bigjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan View Post
Tried again last night both visually and photographically but no luck.
Weather in Melbourne was quite good (before clouds rolled in and started raining), Sirius B was easy... Procyon B should have been just shy of the edge of the Procyon A disk (as indicated on the scaled orbit drawings), but there was no trace of anything permanent on 2000x stack.
(Attached frames are from movies taken with Canon 60D (crop mode), 1/60, ISO6400).
Good you put those scaled drawings up Bojan..gives people an idea of the ENORMITY of seeing it visually and even photographically and most importantly WHERE TO LOOK for any chance..but remembering to reverse directions in a mirrored diagonal to NE
Nice shots Bojan BTW.
With thanks.

bigjoe
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:12 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,776
Bojan nice try but I think you need a lot more magnification and a shorter exposure to suppress the glare from Procyon A. Even better would be an occulting bar to block the light from A. You have to cleanly show the diffraction rings - and dark spaces between them - to have any chance at imaging Procyon B.

Sirius B is about 10.8 arcsec from A. Procyon B is about 4 arcsec from A which in your scope puts it roughly in the 3rd dark ring. You need to be showing the airy disk and the rings cleanly. In the left image, Procyon B is buried in the usual Celestron "blob" (left image). If all you're getting is the blob... no chance.

Contrast is obviously a whopping challenge with this and with really perfect optics the Mk1 eyeball has a wider dynamic range than any camera.

Last edited by Wavytone; 02-03-2019 at 07:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 07:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
SkyWatcher Australia
Advertisement
Lunatico Astronomical
Advertisement
Celestron Australia
Advertisement
OzScopes Authorised Dealer
Advertisement
NexDome Observatories
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Meade Australia
Advertisement
Astronomy and Electronics Centre
Advertisement