It steams my clams when someone complains about Bintel's prices

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I did not realise Bintel Melbourne have closed. That was the only walk-in store in Melbourne I used to be confident enough in to send interested first-time scope buyers to.

[MattT]

Originally Posted by Camelopardalis

Not sure why anyone would be bothered about a retailer posting a topic, it presents an interesting insight / day in the life

It was just an observation. To me the title would have been more appropriate if Bintel was left out of it....It steams my Clams when someone complains about Australian prices....that's the topic.

Its not Australian prices, its the manufactures prices that get me...TV for instance.

Most of the bits I want to buy I can't get in Oz so I go online.

Who was that said...If you don't advertise a terrible thing happens....nothing.

So go right ahead and advertise....just be upfront about it.

[GeoffW1 (Geoff)]

"It steams my clams"

I'd like to see that (rof rof)

No argument with your argument tho

Cheers

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Better steamed than raw. Prefer them cooked in white wine & olive oil though with a generous helping of finely chopped of parsley.

Dealers should take responsibility. Blaming the customers for buying elsewhere and business failing to succeed is poor form.

That said, those of us (customers) who know better and know about good honest and valuable local vendors should make an effort to inform newcomers and also to highlight the benefits of buying locally (by "locally" I mean not from overseas; in Melbourne that's pretty much all it can mean now).

My main advice to AU buyers is to make an effort to contact AU dealers, talk to them on the phone or converse via email. Don't just do window shopping online. There are some very knowledgeable & helpful vendors out there and a retailer who is on the ball will be able to get a lot of gear for you cheaper than you're able to get it from overseas. Some of these guys cannot keep their websites constantly up-to-date because that too costs time and money. Contacting dealers is the best way to suss them out and to find the best deal. Also, there is something to be said for a productive mutually beneficial long term relationship with your fave vendors.

[el_draco (Rom)]

I rate service above cost and Bintel has always provided excellent service. I buy locally when I can get what I want. We may pay a premium in relation to volume and warrantee, but trying to do a return overseas is somewhat challenging.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by MattT

It was just an observation. To me the title would have been more appropriate if Bintel was left out of it....It steams my Clams when someone complains about Australian prices....that's the topic.

Its not Australian prices, its the manufactures prices that get me...TV for instance.

Most of the bits I want to buy I can't get in Oz so I go online.

Who was that said...If you don't advertise a terrible thing happens....nothing.

So go right ahead and advertise....just be upfront about it.

Bintel is our main competition.

Just the one customer complained about our prices--fine. Yes, we are more expensive, but when we explain things, they understand then make the decision based on what they can afford.

Just the one weird guy on Friday went on to bash Bintel for their prices and saying we (as local shops) were all causing problems for customers etc etc. It's already very hard to do so to match Bintel. We have some things cheaper, we have some things more expensive, but I tend to like paying my bills on time, thank you.

And it turns out the item he wanted is cheaper to get locally.

It's these weirdos that are annoying. Things look so cheap when they're on a overseas site in US dollars.

janokiss has good advice when buying either locally or overseas--if you're not sure, ASK. If buying overseas, ASK your bank what their exchange rate is and any fees involved, ASK the dealer what their international shipping policy is, and ASK the dealer what their warranty service is for overseas customers. Then, finally, ask yourself it it's worth it. If it is, go for it!

We may not be able to lower our prices on one item, but we could sweeten the deal with additional products that we can afford to discount on. You might find out that the thing you were after might have a cheaper alternative. There often is.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I should have also added that vendors need to be aware that more and more people prefer to shop using nothing more than their mouse or touchscreen. Even if you cannot afford to set up and maintain online shop that caters for this crowd, you need to have something to convince them to fire off an email, pick up the phone or go to your shop. Stuff like "Call for best price" does not cut it.

For someone like me, who's been into the hobby for over a decade it does not matter. I will contact you if I am looking for something because I'm a professional amateur . But newcomers need extra incentives to make them lift a finger beyond what's required to push a pointer around on their computer/tablet screen. What that incentive should be I have not the foggiest.

I think there is a shift in culture in this modern age where people are more reluctant to engage one-on-one. They'd rather interact with a website than the person selling the goods. It's sad but I think it's true.

[lazjen (Chris)]

Steve (janoskiss), I think you're right. There are some real factors though why people are doing things more online, less 1-to-1, etc. Some of it is just pure necessity - it's easier to jump on the computer at night instead of trying to phone or get to a place during the day, especially if you work.

As for sending an email, I know that at times I'm reluctant. Partly because if I change my mind I feel as if I've wasted the other person's time (and I know how important that is in a business). The other is that it can be really random the responses you get, if at all.

I think these days you do have to keep your website(s) up to date more effectively, and find an efficient way to do it. After all, surely it's got to be easier to allow customers to see the "best" information rather than potentially repeat it in multiple emails?

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

[...]
But newcomers need extra incentives to make them lift a finger beyond what's required to push a pointer around on their computer/tablet screen. What that incentive should be I have not the foggiest.

I think there is a shift in culture in this modern age where people are more reluctant to engage one-on-one. They'd rather interact with a website than the person selling the goods. It's sad but I think it's true.

It's not without irony that those customers who might benefit from consultation most also appear to be the ones that need most convincing to go to an actual shop and get some personal advice.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

@N1 It's a fairly ubiquitous pattern, e.g., students who don't show up to the tutorial classes at uni are the ones that need them most; or drivers who voluntarily take defensive driving courses are probably already safer drivers than most etc.

[VPAstro (Andrew and Cam)]

Originally Posted by raymo

That's not so amazing, I got my SW ST80 with finder, 10 and 25 EPs, tube
rings, and AZ3 tripod for AU$199. from BTOW in Perth.
raymo

Thanks pretty good Raymo. When I was looking for the Orion guide scope package, the cheapest I could find in Australia was $349Aud. So I thought $109 USD was pretty good... Good that I was over there at the time and able to carry it back in my carry on...

[raymo]

Yes, US$109 was pretty good. In my case I guess Keith must have been overstocked at the time.
raymo

[inertia8 (Australia)]

If within reason I buy locally or if service is above and beyond etc and the markup isn't 2-3 times what I can get it for from overseas.

I tend to buy most of my car servicing parts from overseas as I'd be unable to afford to own and keep the cars in top condition if using local suppliers. Simple things like one of the rubber gasket for a timing cover on my 1991 Toyota.. $6.35us v $34.70au.. Even the US price is pushing it for what it is, as its a tiny piece of formed rubber, not even the main timing cover gasket.. "Oh it has to come from Japan, 4-6wks" they say as to why its expensive... Yeah well my USA supplier has to get it from Japan too... But he isn't gouging me on price and its only 2wks from Japan to USA to me... Must be more containers leaving for USA they can put it on...

[jeff65 (Jeff)]

Few make the connection but largely this is a direct consequence of Australia's high real estate prices compared to elsewhere. The shop owner has to pay for retail space, the distributor for warehouse space and every employee is paying rent or a mortgage.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

I actually don't mind so much the customers complaining about our prices. I know we can be more expensive.

But when they try to knock someone like Bintel who already have reasonable prices for a shop that does have a shopfront... who have the expertise and go the extra mile... I feel like making a clam chowder in addition to steaming my clams.

As I said before, our economy here is different from that in the US. We have a smaller population, smaller population density, and thus our market is small and sometimes the only way to make up for the finite market is to put a higher margin on the prices. If you got a shop in a major US city like LA, NY, etc. you have a huge market, as well as lots of competition.

I did notice something about buying habits of beginners: the majority of newbies who visit us (or call us), the first thing they say is, "I saw on your website..." and then they ask us to show them and if it's the right scope for them. So for a major portion of our customers, we need both the website and storefront and many online sellers don't have that.

They need a lot of hand-holding, reassurance, that it is the right scope/thing for them. The storefront adds that little bit of confidence. The savvy ones already know what they want and the only thing we can do is to make sure we've got most things they need in stock so we become their one-stop shop if they need to grab a bunch of things before they rush out to their dark sky weekends. That's the crowd we are catering too. If we just focus on price strategy, it can be a losing battle because there will always be someone cheaper than you, especially if they're selling something as a loss leader (below cost) or clearing out.

Our website is fully functional, and works nicely on mobile phones, and I definitely see an increase in online purchases. I'm very introverted myself; I'd rather shop online, but I do like going to a proper shop too because it's just a matter of buyer confidence.

I notice that I pay more attention to my buying habits after taking over a retail shop--like I mentioned before I got into marine aquariums. I source my stuff in a variety of online stores, but I love window shopping for the fish, and going to the local aquarium shops for advice, or just to chat about the hobby. Many do ship, and I did order livestock online, especially if it's something rare. Some things are really overpriced here, so I did go buy some equipment from overseas. There were downsides to it when I had to use international power adapters for everything (they did include one) and it looks worse than an imaging train! But... the one thing I never did was to try to beat down the local retailer for their prices because I know the running costs of a storefront, and the fact that I can just walk in and walk out with the thing I need right away is a service that commands a premium price.

Actually, I did come across some really interesting stats while doing some research: http://blog.snakkmedia.com/aussies-t...-for-shopping/

Just under half of Australians will use their smartphone to buy something online more than once a month and 15% do so more frequently, at least once a week.

93% had made a purchase on their computer
73% had made a purchase on a tablet
58% had made a purchase on their smartphone
44% use their smartphone to buy things online once a month or more
15% use their smartphone to buy things online at least once a week.

That's a huge shift in the buying habits of our customers. But that said...

Once we had a guy who could only correspond to us by snail mail. He had no telephone line or internet line and saw our ad in a magazine.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by jeff65

Few make the connection but largely this is a direct consequence of Australia's high real estate prices compared to elsewhere. The shop owner has to pay for retail space, the distributor for warehouse space and every employee is paying rent or a mortgage.

Actually, I do see a lot of connection. That's why I'm eager to move to a warehouse... still, you can't really get rent cheaper than $30,000 a year in our area for the minimum you need to run a LAS.

High rentals and high labour costs... that's what's pushing retail prices up for every industry. Rent and wages are the highest risk to shops.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Back in the 1990s and early 2000s there were a fair few retailers cashing in on people's ignorance and ripping customers off (and there still are, but it's becoming a lot harder for them: a lot fewer suckers left in our information age).

A lot of people realised that once Internet access and online presence of international retailers became commonplace, and have been left with a sour taste and ill will towards local dealers. Paying 3-4x markup was not uncommon. I'm sure I could still find the odd camera shop where such outrageous prices persist though probably no telescope shop can get away with that any more.

Having hosted a lot of public astro events, I could have sold my 10" Saxon Dob many times for a couple of grand to people looking through it for the first time. They'd often ask me how much the telescope costs and expect to hear a figure in the $5-10k range. (Sometimes they hesitate and think it rude to ask but ask anyway.) When I tell them it was $800 they sometimes don't believe me. So it'd be very easy to con uninformed enthusiastic first timers. You just need the charming salesman act and be a slimy opportunist with no conscience.

@Cheryl-Ann It sounds like you're running a tight ship and doing all the right things for your business and your customers. We need a shop like yours in Melbourne. It'd be nice for me to have a friendly shop around but more so for all the people I meet, who are eager to get started.

(I've contemplated starting my own retail outlet, and I would if not for lack of capital. Had a dream of a cafe / bar / live music venue + astro shop with observatory on the roof and nightly sidewalk astronomy in one of the northern boho suburbs.
I have plenty experience with most of that already except the buying and selling gear and making any money bit - ie the hard bit. I think I'd be bad at that though. I'd need to partner up with or hire someone with business smarts.)

Best wishes for you and your enterprise. Hope you have lots of success and that the 20" SW will be worth the effort.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

Back in the 1990s and early 2000s there were a fair few retailers cashing in on people's ignorance and ripping customers off (and there still are, but it's becoming a lot harder for them: a lot fewer suckers left in our information age).

A lot of people realised that once Internet access and online presence of international retailers became commonplace, and have been left with a sour taste and ill will towards local dealers. Paying 3-4x markup was not uncommon. I'm sure I could still find the odd camera shop where such outrageous prices persist though probably no telescope shop can get away with that any more.

Having hosted a lot of public astro events, I could have sold my 10" Saxon Dob many times for a couple of grand to people looking through it for the first time. They'd often ask me how much the telescope costs and expect to hear a figure in the $5-10k range. (Sometimes they hesitate and think it rude to ask but ask anyway.) When I tell them it was $800 they sometimes don't believe me. So it'd be very easy to con uninformed enthusiastic first timers. You just need the charming salesman act and be a slimy opportunist with no conscience.

@Cheryl-Ann It sounds like you're running a tight ship and doing all the right things for your business and your customers. We need a shop like yours in Melbourne. It'd be nice for me to have a friendly shop around but more so for all the people I meet, who are eager to get started.

(I've contemplated starting my own retail outlet, and I would if not for lack of capital. Had a dream of a cafe / bar / live music venue + astro shop with observatory on the roof and nightly sidewalk astronomy in one of the northern boho suburbs.
I have plenty experience with most of that already except the buying and selling gear and making any money bit - ie the hard bit. I think I'd be bad at that though. I'd need to partner up with or hire someone with business smarts.)

Best wishes for you and your enterprise. Hope you have lots of success and that the 20" SW will be worth the effort.

I've seen the cafe/astro shop done before (our store used to have a coffee shop attached to it years ago before we took over), and it is a LOT of work, and that coffee shop venture failed. When Astro Pete started doing his food service (in addition to coffee) the one of the things he told me on day one of said food service was "I'm regretting it already!". The food's great, but when your focus is split between two things, it's very, very hard to please everyone. Who do you serve first if two customers came in at the same time: The hungry customer who wants to order $5 plate of chips and can't wait 5 minutes longer, or the one who has $500 in his pocket and needs an hour of your time to coach him through the buying process of a scope, and you have competitors nearby in both industries that specialise in what they do... you're likely to lose either one or both of those customers. You can't ignore one because both customers are important. In their mind they're both just as important as the other so in your mind they should be too.

In some ways it's not rocket science, but a degree in business, lots of start-up capital, and plenty of common sense helps. I don't want to crush your dreams, though, just a few months ago I never thought I'd be able to to do it myself! If you think Melbourne has a need for a brick and mortar store and you're the one with the resources for it, go for it!

I know what you mean by excited newbies... I did a lot of public outreach too (still do when I have the time) and they're always surprised at the prices of new scopes. Lots of things are mass market now so they're so much cheaper than say, 10 years ago. But I still cannot in my right conscience charge them the price they want to pay if it's not a reasonable price... because sooner or later they will find out. And if they do, they'll never come back to buy accessories or their second scope from you.

And then, there's Australian Geographic...

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I've seen and helped make the bar/cafe/restaurant/astro/music venue thing happen before numerous times but it's always been a volunteer/community effort and very much not for profit (only the venue owners, all friends, hopefully made enough to pay the rent that week, pay core staff, maybe take a few $s home).

It's easy to get carried away on great nights like that where everyone is ecstatic and telling you you should "turn professional" etc. Doing something for a living is very different to doing it for fun when one feels like it.

Feel free to crush my dreams because they do need culling. I have dreams enough to keep a guy busy for 10+ lifetimes but I only have (with a bit of luck) about half a lifetime left until the lease runs out on this human shell.

AG: Don't even go there. I mean that quite literally for everyone.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Originally Posted by kittenshark

Rent and wages are the highest risk to shops.

It's a catch 22 however, everything has risen, especially services such as electricity and Gas and insurance well beyond the CPI yet our pay is still not enough to cover all of this.
Unfortunately to blame it on high wages is a furphy as we need to high wages in order just to make ends meet due to corporations making a massive profit to appease their shareholders.
It really peeves me when people blame labor costs when labor costs are just enough to pay the mortgage, pay insurance water, bills rent food etc. If there is anything left then we spend it on luxury goods which are overpriced in Australia.
Lower the cost of electricity, insurance gas water etc.
When corporations make billions and pay bugger all tax and they blame the average worker because their labour cost is high is laughable. We need higher wages just to get by!!!!