#1  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:01 AM
Slawomir's Avatar
Slawomir (Suavi)
Amateur Photon Collector

Slawomir is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Proserpine
Posts: 3,014
The end of CCD Astro

It was inevitable: https://qsimaging.com/news_updates/o...-announcement/

Interesting times for FLI, SBIG, SX, QSI, Moravian...I hope this won't have a long term detrimental impact on amateur astrophotography.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:42 AM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
I didn't expect that so soon.

There has been a trend towards CMOS as Sony left the CCD business a few years back.

I am not sure CMOS are at the same standard as CCD at this stage. Although there are a large number of excellent CMOS images shown on this site.

One area that is not at the same standard yet is size. Most of these CMOS sensors are quite small, around the KAF8300 or smaller sizes.

The QHY600 mono full frame 61mp sensor is the first of these full frame mono CMOS sensors. It will be interesting to see how they perform.
61mp may be a pain to process though. 102mb files.

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:22 AM
Atmos's Avatar
Atmos (Colin)
Ultimate Noob

Atmos is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,319
I guess one of the lines of thought is that with something like the QHY600, you can always capture and full resolution and then bin it before working on anything. Or even just bin during capture if that is easier, it's what I would do with my Mewlon but that's when 2x2 binned gets me to 0.62"/pixel

With that though I'd have a 15mp BSI mono FF sensor with a QE peaking at near 90% and 7.52 micron pixels. Although it doesn't get the same SNR improvement with binning as a CCD it also doesn't have the high near noise which was the purpose of hardware binning anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:37 AM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
Good point I hadn't considered the advantage of binning the 61mp sensor. Makes a lot of sense. We'll see examples of that camera in the coming months and we'll see if CMOS is going to be a viable alternative to CCD.

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:29 AM
SimmoW's Avatar
SimmoW (SIMON)
Farting Nebulae

SimmoW is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tamleugh, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,335
I do think it's sad, and a pity as from the direct comparisons I've seen, the ccd is still vastly superior to my ASI1600. I weep when I see the extra detail that I would never see. Haha, maybe you guys with ccds will start seeing their prices appreciate...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:27 PM
Slawomir's Avatar
Slawomir (Suavi)
Amateur Photon Collector

Slawomir is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Proserpine
Posts: 3,014
I think Sony will continue supplying their excellent but small ICX CCD sensors until 2026, so dinosaurs are not quite extinct yet
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:08 PM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slawomir View Post
I think Sony will continue supplying their excellent but small ICX CCD sensors until 2026, so dinosaurs are not quite extinct yet
Its a shame Sony didn't bring out a larger ICX CCD, full frame.

But they have some outstanding sensors coming out.
I read about one just the other day, quite revolutionary.

So CMOS is going to have some very advanced sensors in the near future.
CCD on the other hand whilst great, seemed to be standing still as far as R and D goes. Like Beta and VHS video tapes. DSLR and Mirrorless and other examples. One tech rises to the top.

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:42 PM
Atmos's Avatar
Atmos (Colin)
Ultimate Noob

Atmos is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,319
Another big part of it comes down to profitability margin. The readout speeds of CMOS have made it a more versatile sensor for so many more applications. In the extreme high end of the professional market everything is custom built for specific applications. Then there is the lower end professional market which use the best fit for what's on the market at the time, much like us amateurs. The money for R&D follows the money which is in the DSLR market and applications that require the higher frame rate.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:52 PM
Peter Ward's Avatar
Peter Ward
Galaxy hitchhiking guide

Peter Ward is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 6,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
.........
CCD on the other hand whilst great, seemed to be standing still as far as R and D goes......

Greg.
Not true IMHO. emCCD's are simply awesome. Ultra clean with single photon detection. Nothing on the CMOS front comes close.

So good in fact, there are DoD restrictions on their export from the USA.

The rub is the price...1k x 1k sensor cameras are around $100k...hardly amateur pricing.

P.S.
I lifted this from a recent UK Astronomy Paper on emCCD developments (my emphasis added):

A signal to noise gain of three is possible if the astronomy community can move from standard CCD technology
to new Electron Multiplication CCDs.
However the present generation of EMCCDs do not cover the available field of view of a typical spectrograph.
Therefore development of a new larger EMCCD is required to sample a typical field and still give the signal to noise improvements described.
Such a device will probably cost >1M Euro to develop

Last edited by Peter Ward; 12-10-2019 at 10:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 13-10-2019, 10:22 AM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
emCCD sounds good but doesn't sound like it will arrive on our telescopes.

Sony has some high tech sensors coming out.

One I just read about is full frame, 48mp, BSI, 3 layer organic film, and possibly quad bayer meaning different sets of pixels can be combined for different exposures creating a HDR.

I suspect Sony will beat Fuji/Panasonic with organic film CMOS sensors.

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-12-2019, 06:29 PM
alpal's Avatar
alpal
Registered User

alpal is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post
I guess one of the lines of thought is that with something like the QHY600, you can always capture and full resolution and then bin it before working on anything. Or even just bin during capture if that is easier, it's what I would do with my Mewlon but that's when 2x2 binned gets me to 0.62"/pixel

With that though I'd have a 15mp BSI mono FF sensor with a QE peaking at near 90% and 7.52 micron pixels. Although it doesn't get the same SNR improvement with binning as a CCD it also doesn't have the high near noise which was the purpose of hardware binning anyway.



But the QHY600 with the IMX455 sensor is a beast.
The Quantum efficiency is amazing peaking at nearly 85%:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...MygAegUIARCnAQ


3.76um pixels and native 16-bit A/D.
sensor size of 36mm x 24mm
Low Read Noise 1.0e to 3.7e
Price US$5,000

https://optcorp.com/products/qhy600-...me-cmos-camera


This could be the end of CCD but at that price I'll stick with my QHY9 KAF8300
which is already down in light level at the edge of the
18 x 13.5mm sensor due to only a 2" focuser on my 10" f4 Newt.
I would need to upgrade to a super expensive 3" focuser and coma corrector and OAG
to run a large sensor.


To people who already have the other hardware I mentioned -
they could just plonk a QHY600 straight on to their rig
with only the spacing to consider - so it would be tempting.


cheers
Allan
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-12-2019, 08:21 PM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
I wold love to see what that camera can do in the hands of someone who routinely puts out good images.

On paper it sounds hard to beat. 60mp though is going to be tough on processing power and memory.

I wonder the if the 42.4mp Sony sensor will be released like this one.

Grge.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-12-2019, 08:45 PM
Atmos's Avatar
Atmos (Colin)
Ultimate Noob

Atmos is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
But the QHY600 with the IMX455 sensor is a beast.
The Quantum efficiency is amazing peaking at nearly 85%:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...MygAegUIARCnAQ


3.76um pixels and native 16-bit A/D.
sensor size of 36mm x 24mm
Low Read Noise 1.0e to 3.7e
Price US$5,000

https://optcorp.com/products/qhy600-...me-cmos-camera


This could be the end of CCD but at that price I'll stick with my QHY9 KAF8300
which is already down in light level at the edge of the
18 x 13.5mm sensor due to only a 2" focuser on my 10" f4 Newt.
I would need to upgrade to a super expensive 3" focuser and coma corrector and OAG
to run a large sensor.


To people who already have the other hardware I mentioned -
they could just plonk a QHY600 straight on to their rig
with only the spacing to consider - so it would be tempting.


cheers
Allan
It certainly isnít cheap compared to the KAF-8300 but itís also 4x the surface area, has pretty much twice the QE and less than half the read noise. When you compare it against the KAF-16200 or the KAI-11002 itís actually a bargain.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-12-2019, 09:04 PM
Xeteth (David)
Registered User

Xeteth is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 39
It's interesting to read about trends in the chip world, it does seem like a lot of manufacturers are steering towards CMOS.

I'm currently in the market for a new mono camera and have been eyeing off the QHY814a with the sony ICX814 chip, great QE with relatively low noise... but should I instead look at some of the CMOS based cameras out there? I've been told that the sony chip will be excellent for narrowband which is what I'll primarily be doing with the camera...

It's hard to make a decision with so many products out there, each with the pro's and con's.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-12-2019, 06:04 AM
alpal's Avatar
alpal
Registered User

alpal is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,821
Xeteth,
Quote:
It's interesting to read about trends in the chip world, it does seem like a lot of manufacturers are steering towards CMOS.

I'm currently in the market for a new mono camera and have been eyeing off the QHY814a with the sony ICX814 chip, great QE with relatively low noise... but should I instead look at some of the CMOS based cameras out there? I've been told that the sony chip will be excellent for narrowband which is what I'll primarily be doing with the camera...

It's hard to make a decision with so many products out there, each with the pro's and con's.

Greg,
Quote:
I wold love to see what that camera can do in the hands of someone who routinely puts out good images.

On paper it sounds hard to beat. 60mp though is going to be tough on processing power and memory.

I wonder the if the 42.4mp Sony sensor will be released like this one.

Greg.

Atmos,
Quote:
It certainly isnít cheap compared to the KAF-8300 but itís also 4x the surface area,
has pretty much twice the QE and less than half the read noise.
When you compare it against the KAF-16200 or the KAI-11002 itís actually a bargain.

We can be certain that many people will buy a QHY 600 or
some other camera with this new IMX455 sensor.
Let's wait and see what results they get.
It will be followed by me with great interest.

cheers
Allan
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-12-2019, 06:24 AM
Slawomir's Avatar
Slawomir (Suavi)
Amateur Photon Collector

Slawomir is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Proserpine
Posts: 3,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeteth View Post
It's interesting to read about trends in the chip world, it does seem like a lot of manufacturers are steering towards CMOS.

I'm currently in the market for a new mono camera and have been eyeing off the QHY814a with the sony ICX814 chip, great QE with relatively low noise... but should I instead look at some of the CMOS based cameras out there? I've been told that the sony chip will be excellent for narrowband which is what I'll primarily be doing with the camera...

It's hard to make a decision with so many products out there, each with the pro's and con's.
I have been using an ICX814-based camera for about 5 years and while it is a small sensor, it is clean - no glow or patterns, no bad columns, it has a low RN at full dynamic range (4e) and has a very good QE. Even when I was stacking 100hrs worth of narrowband exposure, PixInsinight did not measure an improvement when calibrating with darks as opposed to just flats and bias. The only reason to change the sensor for me at this stage would be if I was going for a wider field, or if I gave into a temptation to try a longer focal length scope.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-12-2019, 11:58 AM
Xeteth (David)
Registered User

Xeteth is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slawomir View Post
I have been using an ICX814-based camera for about 5 years and while it is a small sensor, it is clean - no glow or patterns, no bad columns, it has a low RN at full dynamic range (4e) and has a very good QE. Even when I was stacking 100hrs worth of narrowband exposure, PixInsinight did not measure an improvement when calibrating with darks as opposed to just flats and bias. The only reason to change the sensor for me at this stage would be if I was going for a wider field, or if I gave into a temptation to try a longer focal length scope.
You've just about convinced me with this advice, thank you! I can't wait to be able to do some proper narrowband work given that I'm situated in a highly light polluted area.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-12-2019, 05:34 PM
Slawomir's Avatar
Slawomir (Suavi)
Amateur Photon Collector

Slawomir is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Proserpine
Posts: 3,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeteth View Post
You've just about convinced me with this advice, thank you! I can't wait to be able to do some proper narrowband work given that I'm situated in a highly light polluted area.
For narrowband imaging from a site with high light pollution, I recommend 5nm Ha and 3nm OIII (and 3nm SII if the budget allows for the 3rd filter). Such filters are probably more important than the sensor itself.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Yesterday, 10:39 AM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 15,468
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpal View Post
Xeteth,



Greg,



Atmos,



We can be certain that many people will buy a QHY 600 or
some other camera with this new IMX455 sensor.
Let's wait and see what results they get.
It will be followed by me with great interest.

cheers
Allan
I am dubious about but happy to be wrong.
The sensor itself isa bit worse than the 42.4mp full frame.
I wonder why that was skipped.
60mp sounds exotic until you have to process a big stack.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 02:04 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Meade Australia
Advertisement
Celestron Australia
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
OzScopes Authorised Dealer
Advertisement
SkyWatcher Australia
Advertisement
NexDome Observatories
Advertisement
Lunatico Astronomical
Advertisement
Astronomy and Electronics Centre
Advertisement