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Old 11-06-2017, 10:56 AM
DJT (David)
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a question on etiquette

I am interested in people thoughts on how far critique should go when providing feedback on images.

Should it include taking someone's data, reprocessing and posting it back up?

Personally I am more than happy when people provide constructive comments as it can only add to my knowledge but uninvited reprocessing..not sure about that. Those final touches are a personal thing.

What do others think?
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:10 AM
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Camelopardalis (Dunk)
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The data is the only part that's objective, the processing is subjective...so all subject to personal taste/bias, calibration of screen, etc, etc.

IMO reprocessing is OK so long as it's respectful...I mean, if the poster uploads an image for critique/suggestions then sometimes a picture says a thousand words. Personally, I find it a bit off when someone posts a response with a tweaked version but doesn't volunteer the steps to get there. Processing is a learning process, I'm not convinced it's ever perfected, and we can all learn a thing or two.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:31 AM
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For me it all comes down to context and how it is put forth. You can do it as a way of explaining what you mean, a picture says a thousand words. Saying "it looks a little soft" or "it lacks contrast" may be constructive but displaying that as an example can help.

You always have to pick your target however as some people don't appreciate it, others don't care.
There can be a fine line between constructive and criticism
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:51 AM
glend (Glen)
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Thanks for bringing this topic up. Personally i do think some of the recent 'commentary' on images posted on IIS comes very close to bullying. I don't consider myself having a thin skin concerning my interpretation of what something should look like, and I always stress that i see this activity as Art. Unfortunately, some people seem to lie in wait for someone to post an image that does not conform to their interpretation of the "imaging standard model". Uninvited reprocessing is just plain rude and usually demeaning to the original artist. For these reasons I do not post any more images on IIS. I get plenty of 'Likes' from Astrobin and family and friends, that is approval enough for me.

If your intent is conformity to the group then you will get advice that takes you in that direction, but it's not for everyone.

Last edited by glend; 11-06-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:59 AM
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I'm with you on this Glen I rarely put anything up for the same reason . There a few who are generally respectful and I appreciate their comments and others just a bit too abrupt for my liking. Also seems unless you are well known regular people rarely bother to comment anyway.
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:02 PM
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multiweb (Marc)
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If you put a photo for comment on the public domain then you have to expect some occasional flack. If that upsets you and you post only expecting good comments to feel good about it then don't risk it. We're all doing the same thing here. Taking pics and showing them off. We learn from each other. Repros are ok. Most are awful but now and then somebody does something interesting and it prompts the OP to redo his shot. All good. All part of the learning curve. IMHO leave the "Etiquette" and all that stuff at home. Life is too short.
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:53 PM
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Aside from creating a structure in which people can interact, etiquette is about making others comfortable and treating them with respect. In this way everyone feels free to speak, provide input or display their work .

We should always think about comments before we post them. If we think a comment might offend or be taken the wrong way, then perhaps the suggestion could be made privately. Like most things, moderation is important - It's a question of a balance between a free and frank discussion versus embarrassing and alienating others.

Best
JA
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:58 PM
glend (Glen)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
.....We're all doing the same thing here.
Actually Marc were not "all doing the same thing here", in terms of our interpretation. That goes to the heart of the matter. .

Last edited by glend; 11-06-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JA View Post
Aside from creating a structure in which people can interact, etiquette is about making others comfortable and treating them with respect. In this way everyone feels free to speak, provide input or display their work .

We should always think about comments before we post them. If we think a comment might offend or be taken the wrong way, then perhaps the suggestion could be made privately. Like most things, moderation is important - It's a question of a balance between a free and frank discussion versus embarrassing and alienating others.

Best
JA
Absolutely. Being courteous is all about good manners and that's a given but I was just pointing out not to get too agro about critisism.

Last edited by multiweb; 11-06-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:10 PM
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I am the person most guilty of posting small crops of pics
& explaining a possible improvement.
No one has told me off yet & I think most people appreciate me
taking my time to explain what I mean? -
at least I hope so?

I see so many pics with wonderful data & just a slight
adjustment can make such a difference to the final result.

cheers
Allan
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:12 PM
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If we really want to have a healthy and thriving forum for showcasing amateur astroimages, then we should also be respectful and sensible with our comments. If in doubt, it's best to restrain from making suggestions and instead focus on what's good about the image. Having said that, becoming capable of providing useful feedback does not happen overnight and requires a degree of wisdom/experience, so mistakes will be made.

EDIT: Allan, I know I have not posted any new images for a while, but from memory, you have never tweaked any of my images...
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Old 11-06-2017, 07:51 PM
DJT (David)
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Thanks for the comments on this. It's interesting to read the various points of view.

There's a huge amount of respect amongst people on this forum and feedback is generally very constructive

Allan, the trigger for this thread was indeed your post. Perhaps rather than posting small crops you repost the full image with your adjustments proposals but maybe contact the OP first to see if that's ok as your personal view of what might be an improvement could well differ from that of the people who posted the original? Whilst the small crop proves the point from a contrast detail point of view, the bigger picture represents what the OP intended when they processed the image.

Also, wondering if because the original image was HaLRGB, that might explain why the red was off over to the right and why the op left it like that? That's more a technical point, maybe someone can chime in on that?

Cheers
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
Thanks for the comments on this. It's interesting to read the various points of view.

There's a huge amount of respect amongst people on this forum and feedback is generally very constructive

Allan, the trigger for this thread was indeed your post. Perhaps rather than posting small crops you repost the full image with your adjustments proposals but maybe contact the OP first to see if that's ok as your personal view of what might be an improvement could well differ from that of the people who posted the original? Whilst the small crop proves the point from a contrast detail point of view, the bigger picture represents what the OP intended when they processed the image.

Also, wondering if because the original image was HaLRGB, that might explain why the red was off over to the right and why the op left it like that? That's more a technical point, maybe someone can chime in on that?

Cheers

You're probably right,
It's just that by the time permission came along -
perhaps 2 days later I couldn't be bothered
going to all the trouble
of making a comparison picture.

I actually feel that taking a small crop out of a large picture
is not as bad as taking & altering someone's whole picture
plus the whole picture wouldn't fit inside the
200KByte guidelines at the original pixel scale.
I'd have to post it on Astrobin & give a link.
It's not my intention to adjust someone's whole picture
just to show my point.

As for the red.
It's unusual that the RGBs are not balanced.
The Red is all out by it self as a separate hump -
it looks strange & red takes over the picture
totally obliterating all the contrast.

Normally you go ctr L in Photoshop & move the LHS slider to just before the first hump -
leaving a tiny gap - in each colour channel.
The line along the bottom is just noise.
In this case the bottom line for red went half way across the screen.
That can't be right.

cheers
Allan
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
Should it include taking someone's data, reprocessing and posting it back up?
I wouldn't reprocess and post back publicly without asking first, but that's just me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marke View Post
Also seems unless you are well known regular people rarely bother to comment anyway.
That's human nature. If you've built a relationship with someone by offering comments and help in the past then they'll be more inclined to reciprocate. The folks that get a lot of comments are typically the ones who actively comment on images by others. I try to comment if I have something helpful to say or if an image is especially good. I'm less likely to comment on images by folks that just lob in and post pictures but don't participate in the forum otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glend View Post
Thanks for bringing this topic up. Personally i do think some of the recent 'commentary' on images posted on IIS comes very close to bullying. I don't consider myself having a thin skin concerning my interpretation of what something should look like, and I always stress that i see this activity as Art. Unfortunately, some people seem to lie in wait for someone to post an image that does not conform to their interpretation of the "imaging standard model".
Most people wouldn't consider what was clearly intended as a helpful comment from a guy who has APODs coming out of his ears as bullying, Glen. It's nothing to do with some imaginary "imaging standard model". It's a simple matter of aesthetics. Many of us don't find images that are predominately green (or any other colour) attractive. If you do, that's fine, but don't be surprised if there are people who don't share your view.

Cheers,
Rick.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:28 PM
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I know what your saying Rick but for an outsider it can come across as a bit of a boys club , its always been that way as long as I can remember though .
The reposting I agree with you should ask first Ive seen threads go completely sideways with repros .
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:40 AM
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Hi Rick - in defense of those of us who just drop pictures in and don't comment much on others, I would argue a significant portion of us don't feel we have a lot to add. I suppose there's definitely no harm in only posting praise, but it's the feedback from people like yourself that make this forum really worthwhile.
I'm always very grateful for the help I get on here, and although the finishing touches are a personal choice, I'd say the other 90% of the processing workflow would be pretty consistent across the guys who are really good at this.
Having said that, on the few images I've posted in here that have attracted positive feedback, it does feel nice to have the effort acknowledged, and I guess even the greats like to hear that too!
Cheers
Andrew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickS View Post
I wouldn't reprocess and post back publicly without asking first, but that's just me...



That's human nature. If you've built a relationship with someone by offering comments and help in the past then they'll be more inclined to reciprocate. The folks that get a lot of comments are typically the ones who actively comment on images by others. I try to comment if I have something helpful to say or if an image is especially good. I'm less likely to comment on images by folks that just lob in and post pictures but don't participate in the forum otherwise.



Most people wouldn't consider what was clearly intended as a helpful comment from a guy who has APODs coming out of his ears as bullying, Glen. It's nothing to do with some imaginary "imaging standard model". It's a simple matter of aesthetics. Many of us don't find images that are predominately green (or any other colour) attractive. If you do, that's fine, but don't be surprised if there are people who don't share your view.

Cheers,
Rick.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:49 AM
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Hi Andrew,

I meant folks that don't really engage with the forum at all apart from posting images. I certainly wouldn't put you in that category!

Cheers,
Rick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alocky View Post
Hi Rick - in defense of those of us who just drop pictures in and don't comment much on others, I would argue a significant portion of us don't feel we have a lot to add. I suppose there's definitely no harm in only posting praise, but it's the feedback from people like yourself that make this forum really worthwhile.
I'm always very grateful for the help I get on here, and although the finishing touches are a personal choice, I'd say the other 90% of the processing workflow would be pretty consistent across the guys who are really good at this.
Having said that, on the few images I've posted in here that have attracted positive feedback, it does feel nice to have the effort acknowledged, and I guess even the greats like to hear that too!
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:10 PM
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"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about".
I'd love comments on my images ...
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:23 PM
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I'd love comments on my images ...
Done
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:28 PM
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Done
That were quick. Thanks !!
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