Lake Macquarie Council Installing 5609 LED Street Lights!

[glend (Glen)]

Just found out that Lake Macquarie Council is going to start replacing all of the streetlights with broad spectrum LEDs commencing in January. That is 5609 individual lights. This really dismays me as I have been fighting the Council for some years about the creeping light pollution. The Council has no light pollution policy, has no designated officer responsible, and all developments only have to meet the very old Aus Standard from the 1990s for out door illumination. Decision made without community consultation, based on cost savings to the Council (bet there is no rate reduction).
Some shadowed LEDs actually are much better than the old incandescent bucket type fittings, but the photos in the local paper look more like car park lights.
Given the vast bush areas all through the Council domain, the effects of LED on the nocturnal animals has never been considered, and I had written to them about "lighting up the Bush for no good reason" on several occasions; including links to the studies on the effect of substantially blue light LEDs on local birds and nocturnal animal reproduction (basically it messes up their seasonal signalling brought on by natural light cycles). Reproduction declines, populations decline, etc.
I moved to this area substantially for the darkness, I am going to have to accept that I can not influence this bunch. At least I was successful in getting one light on my street replaced with a shielded LED, thanks to actually catching some reasonable Ausgrid guys in the area, hope they don't replace it now.
Time to move again I fear. It could be worse, if Bunnings decided to plonk one of their stores nearby.

[alan meehan (Alan)]

I heard the same thing Glen and also some talk that Newcastle is to go the same way they have got no idea ,as you say just to save a buck

[LewisM]

Canberra Airport corporation installed LED's in all the street lighting here and around the airport. The sky glow is NOTICEABLY brighter.

Can't we just turn lights OFF at night to save the money they think they are saving? Do ants and moths need to see where they are going? Do they feel threatened in the dark?

[xelasnave]

Leaving the lights on makes it easier for enemy bombers to strike...all lights should go out at night to reduce that risk.
Alex

[doppler (Rick)]

If they were clever they would install sensor lights, that would dim or turn off when nobody was there to need or see the light, like most of the night. This would work with the new led's that don't have to warm up like the old sodium lights. My car has headlights anyway, the streetlights are only really for pedestrians so there should only be footpath lights


https://www.meanwell-led-drivers.com...ming-australia , I wonder how this trial went?

[JeniSkunk (Jenifur)]

Here in Brisbane, there is a 2 year trial of LED street lighting in progress, being operated between the Brisbane City Council and Energex, using excessively bright LED modules, which are all improperly shielded, and which are all incorrectly installed.
The main driver for the infliction of this light pollution is the city council wanting to cut the cost of lighting Brisbane suburban streets. LEDs mean more light for less cost.

[sharpiel]

Originally Posted by LewisM

Canberra Airport corporation installed LED's in all the street lighting here and around the airport. The sky glow is NOTICEABLY brighter.

Can't we just turn lights OFF at night to save the money they think they are saving? Do ants and moths need to see where they are going? Do they feel threatened in the dark?

I agree

[ngcles]

Hi Glen,

I'm probably stating the bleedingly obvious, but have you spoken to them about Council's obligations to comply with Australian Standards, in particular AS 4282—1997 -- Control of the obtrusive effects of outdoor lighting?

I think you will find somewhere in the Council documents that they are bound to only act in accordance with Australian Standards.


Best,

L.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi Glen,

I'm probably stating the bleedingly obvious, but have you spoken to them about Council's obligations to comply with Australian Standards, in particular AS 4282—1997 -- Control of the obtrusive effects of outdoor lighting?

I think you will find somewhere in the Council documents that they are bound to only act in accordance with Australian Standards.


Best,

L.

AS4282 says...". This Standard does not apply to-
(a) public lighting, as defined in Clause 1.4.10;
(b) internally illuminated advertising signs;
(c) the obtrusive effects of brightly lit surfaces, e.tc......"

Street Lights are public lighting, but they are covered under AS/NZ1158.

"This Standard specifically refers to the potentially adverse effects of outdoor lighting on nearby residents (e.g. of dwellings such as houses, hotels, hospitals), users of adjacent roads (e.g. vehicle drivers, pedestrians, cyclists) and transport signalling systems (e.g. air, marine, rail), and on astronomical observations."

However, since public lighting is exempt, and street lights covered under AS1158, it's effect on astronomical observations are not considered grounds for objection or violation of the Standard.

Believe me I have not been able to find anyone at the Council who cares. The planning approvals folks only care about DAs complying, or sighting, AS4282 in the Environmental Impact Statement supplied by the developer. I found that the Trinity Point Development (approved) actually submitted a EIS written by a subsidiary of the developer. It's enough to convince me it's all rigged.

[skysurfer]

Originally Posted by LewisM

Canberra Airport corporation installed LED's in all the street lighting here and around the airport. The sky glow is NOTICEABLY brighter.

Can't we just turn lights OFF at night to save the money they think they are saving? Do ants and moths need to see where they are going? Do they feel threatened in the dark?

Then these LEDs are very badly designed.
Here in many places in the EU, most newer LED installations contain fully shielded luminaries and 3000K (instead of the more skyglow generating bluer 4000-5000K) which darken the sky compared to previous bulb protruding sodium or fluorescent lamps. The first generation indeed has the 5000K harsh white LEDs.
Maybe CBR airport has the (bad) policy "the more light for the same energy the better" which I consider as an abuse of the energt saving of LEDs.

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Leaving the lights on makes it easier for enemy bombers to strike...all lights should go out at night to reduce that risk.
Alex

This is probably a joke.

Australia has no enemies in the sense of that enemies bombing cities and if enemies do (North Korea ?), they don't need city lights to find cities, that was in the WWII era. Thanks to GPS, any target can be found without any lighting at night.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

This is probably a joke.

Australia has no enemies in the sense of that enemies bombing cities and if enemies do (North Korea ?), they don't need city lights to find cities, that was in the WWII era. Thanks to GPS, any target can be found without any lighting at night.

Actually, if it came to a nuclear war, the first thing to get taken out would be the GPS satellites. The US can certainly degrade precision of the GPS system at any time, and sharpen it up to zero offset within minutes for its own purposes. Hunter killer satellites would just sweep along the GPS belt. But this is a digestion.

As to modern Euro LEDs, looking at the light pollution map of Europe, i doubt any choice of street lighting is going to help make the skys anywhere near as dark as Australia. I suspect my Council will buy the cheapest nastiest ones available, the last thing they seem to care about is investing in the best, this is about saving money.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

Maybe CBR airport has the (bad) policy "the more light for the same energy the better" which I consider as an abuse of the energt saving of LEDs.

Sadly, it's not human nature to be efficient (i.e. achieve same outcome with less input). Instead, we are geared to want more effect, not spend less on input.

Originally Posted by skysurfer

This is probably a joke.

If you read Alex' other 3 or so posts on here, you'll know he means business

[DarkArts]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

Thanks to GPS, any target can be found without any lighting at night.

Although precision GPS-guided weapons can put a missile or bomb "through a window", without satellite navigation, ICBMs can still guide accurately across thousands of kilometres with a Circular Error Probable (50%) typically less than 500m since the 80s, or less than 100m at present, or so it is alleged.

In other words, "they" don't even need GPS to hit cities with nukes.

Now, to make sure this post is on topic, an air burst at 300m altitude would create the mother of all light pollution ...

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Hi Glen,
Sorry to hear of these plans.
Probably will be followed by Central Coast in due course.
But it could be worse...

China plans to launch artificial moon bright enough to replace city's streetlights by 2020. It's said to be eight times brighter than the real moon and light up a diameter of 10 to 80km. They plan to send three of them, using them alternatively. Apparently the illuminating satellite will give a dust-like glow. The purpose of this..... it could save around $240 million in electricity costs every year.

hopefully this is "fake news"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-...VK0lq9ayzv5cTw

[Imme (Jon)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Leaving the lights on makes it easier for enemy bombers to strike...all lights should go out at night to reduce that risk.
Alex

You make me laugh Alex

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Allan_L

Hi Glen,
Sorry to hear of these plans.
Probably will be followed by Central Coast in due course.
But it could be worse...

Hi Allan, yes I fear that the entire coast from southern Sydney / the Royal National Park boundary, right up to Nelson's Bay will be heavily Iight polluted within a few years. There will be fewer and fewer gaps. As we noticed at the Pony Club, the intrusion of Sydney LP has become significant.
I drove past the Morisset Business Park area on my way down to Wyee Nursery this morning, and vast areas of bush have been bulldosed flat, with new slabs and buildings going up to more than double the size of the business park. More businesses, wanting direct M1 access, bringing staff (who will want nearby housing etc). Rampant development.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by DarkArts

ICBMs can still guide accurately across thousands of kilometres with a Circular Error Probable (50%) typically less than 500m since the 80s, or less than 100m at present, or so it is alleged.

Now, to make sure this post is on topic, an air burst at 300m altitude would create the mother of all light pollution ...

Thanks to the plasma sheath on re-entry, GPS isn't an option. Internal guidance does the job quite well enough as you mentioned. Then comes the "canned sunlight"...

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Leaving the lights on makes it easier for enemy bombers to strike...all lights should go out at night to reduce that risk.
Alex

lol!

Originally Posted by JeniSkunk

Here in Brisbane, there is a 2 year trial of LED street lighting in progress, being operated between the Brisbane City Council and Energex, using excessively bright LED modules, which are all improperly shielded, and which are all incorrectly installed.
The main driver for the infliction of this light pollution is the city council wanting to cut the cost of lighting Brisbane suburban streets. LEDs mean more light for less cost.

Everything is $$$ and public safety. Nothing else matters.

Originally Posted by glend

AS4282 says...". This Standard does not apply to-
(a) public lighting, as defined in Clause 1.4.10;
(b) internally illuminated advertising signs;
(c) the obtrusive effects of brightly lit surfaces, e.tc......"

Street Lights are public lighting, but they are covered under AS/NZ1158.

"This Standard specifically refers to the potentially adverse effects of outdoor lighting on nearby residents (e.g. of dwellings such as houses, hotels, hospitals), users of adjacent roads (e.g. vehicle drivers, pedestrians, cyclists) and transport signalling systems (e.g. air, marine, rail), and on astronomical observations."

However, since public lighting is exempt, and street lights covered under AS1158, it's effect on astronomical observations are not considered grounds for objection or violation of the Standard.

Believe me I have not been able to find anyone at the Council who cares. The planning approvals folks only care about DAs complying, or sighting, AS4282 in the Environmental Impact Statement supplied by the developer. I found that the Trinity Point Development (approved) actually submitted a EIS written by a subsidiary of the developer. It's enough to convince me it's all rigged.

Politicians do NOT care about amateur astronomers or light pollution. The simple way of fixing this issue is to repetitively take out LEDs with a small BB gun. Just keep doing it until it becomes an expensive issue to maintain.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

lol!



Everything is $$$ and public safety. Nothing else matters.



Politicians do NOT care about amateur astronomers or light pollution. The simple way of fixing this issue is to repetitively take out LEDs with a small BB gun. Just keep doing it until it becomes an expensive issue to maintain.

While I am angry about it, I am not about to get arrested for gunning public lighting, and it is a bad idea to encourage it imho. And it would be a real crusade to try and take out all 5,609 of them. They do have a plastic globe thing over them, from what I can see of the one close to my place.
I believe the vast majority of the dark fearing population would welcome ever more lighting flooding their yards and homes.

[xelasnave]

It could be that a power assembing intelligence would welcome maps showing lighting distribution ... therefore it is critical we turn off all lights so as not to give the enemy anything.
Look at North Korea they dont have a "night light footprint" .... mmm I wonder if you can buy country real estate in North Korea ... they must have plenty of dark sites☺
Anyways any loyal Australian should join the campaign to cut out night lights so as to restrict data fom the enemy.

Please go on face book and explain to your friends how silly it is to allow the enemy to spy on us...I know its crazy but the fact is probably 50% would buy it and the doubting 50% would keep quiet rather than draw attention to the folk switching out light to gaurd our secrets.

Anyways part of the astronomy challenge is to get around the problem.
I just had a crazy idea.
You send up a beam of light in a cylinder shape say a meter diameter with your scope imaging thru the center of the tube...in other words we have like a tube of light ...dark in the center think pipe and the light would represent the wall ofcthat pipe..say a meter maybe more or less...but that light should interfere with incoming light such that the city light is somewhat diluted going throught the wall of our pipe of light...then it should be easier to filter out the light at the wave length we send up...and the city light should be easily removed.

Its tuff in the city but there are ways even before my idea is taken up☺
Long focal length short exposures ... maybe a type of flat frame to remove sky glow...
OK there is only one solution...a tax...tax on light polution...Its outta the bag now...
Alex