Looking for a new cam - maybe QSI 583wsg?

[SkyViking (Rolf)]

Hi Everybody, as you may know I've been planning to upgrade my ToUCam to a 'real' CCD camera for some time now, and since I plan to make a purchase in early 2011 I thought I'd ask for some advice here first.

What I'm after:
A mono CCD camera
A guiding solution
A filter wheel + filters

I'm pretty much hooked on the QSI 583wsg. This is because it combines camera, guiding and filterwheel into one compact package and at a very attractive price. I also like the off-axis guider that is built in, it seems quite versatile and I don't really want to have to battle with flexure.

I'm going to connect it directly to my G-11 through a relay adaptor (I don't have the Gemini).
Also, any thoughts on a suitable guide cam? I could use my old ToUCam of course, but I've mounted it in a box and it's rather bulky so I'd prefer a smaller dedicated guide cam.

The only drawback I can see is the limited cooling this camera offers. However
since I live in NZ I already enjoy cooler ambient temperatures on average than most of you, so this should make up for it I guess. Our night time temperatures are typically below 10 degrees for much of the year, and only now during the height of summer do we stay above 20 degrees all night. In winter it falls close to zero regularly, though I've never seen frost around where I live.

I've studied the previous threads about which camera to buy but I'd be grateful if you guys could tell me if I've overlooked something or if you think this would make a good purchase.

Thanks and regards,
Rolf

[ZeroID (Brent)]

Hi Rolf,
Can't offer any advice on your choice of upgrade but if you are looking to sell the ToUCam afterwards I wouldn't mind hearing about it.

Cheers
Brent

[Paul Haese]

Since I was probably the second or third person to get one of these in the southern hemisphere and I have done a lot of work with the camera perhaps I should say what I think.

Sensor - good size but everything depends on your OTA. The KAF8300 covers a fair bit of real estate and suits most setups. I have found with the RC is is a little over sampled which means bigger stars on the bright ones but gives the advantage of being able to sharpen a lot. The sensor is quite good for sensitivity and can be used for images up to 25 minutes.

Cooling - yes this is an issue in summer. I purchased the water cooling unit to get around this issue. I found typically on hot nights 23 degrees I could only get -10C with stable head room without the water cooler. That is still around -35C from ambient. The cooling unit should give me another 10C and that would make for -20C stable. In your environment I would think it would be able to sustain -20C all year round. Overall the cooling is good but it could be a lot better.

Incorporated filter wheel - some good things and bad things about this concept. It only allows 5 filters and it would be better if it could incorporate all of my narrow band gear too, but that will never happen. Not much vignetting seen yet but some when using the RC. It does make for easy use though being incorporated and means cheaper filters since it is so close to the sensor. Good for the budget minded.

Intergrated guiding - This in my opinion is the best feature of the whole system. No loss of stars at any focal length so far. It is relatively easy to focus and once set does not require focusing again on any system I have used. The pick off prism is large and makes for bright stars to guide with. Guiding can be a little tricky to get sorted but small adjustments are better for guiding.

Overall I reckon this is a good camera, nice size, good sensitivity and great features, but if you can handle the cooling it would suit most. Don't forget about how light this thing is either. Literally the size of a CD.

[allan gould]

Have to agree with Paul on all of his comments.
Works beautifully with 5" apo and also with my 10"SCT+f6.3 reducer. No vignetting seen so far.
I have the wsg version as well and its great.

[gregbradley]

I have a FLI Microline 8300. Cooling is amazing and will do -40C no problem in winter and -35C in summer.

This chip is quite clean and so heavy cooling is not entirely needed for noise control.

FLI electronics are super clean so noise is the lowest of any camera manufacturer.

Download speeds are super fast, faster than any other camera.

It is small, robust and well made. It is the top of the line CCD camera for the 8300 chip. It does not have an integrated filter wheel or an off axis guider.

That would be the FLI filter wheel and FLI and others like Astrodon do sell an offaxis guider. It would require though another guide camera. I suppose the QSI OAG also requires another guide cam?

The main difference I think between the FLI and the QSI would be the better cooling and better electronics of the FLI (faster downloads, lower read noise etc) and the integrated filter wheel and OAG of the QSI (why don't all manufacturers offer that - what a great idea).

Not sure of the prices.

Apogee makes a U8300 which is also very nice. Its more of a competitor to the FLI. The main problem of the Apogee is the slow cooling time. It takes half an hour to cool down. If the power gets interrupted it won't simply resume cooling but will warm up first then cool off. All very annoying at 3 am or if you do dusk flats and forget to turn the camera on an hour before you need it.

The FLI is at -40C in about 5 minutes. Both FLI and Apogee have sealed CCD chambers that don't need dessicants. Both offer the chip without the cover slip (I'd go that as the Kodak cover slip is crap glass with crap coatings). The FLI is smaller and lighter than the Apogee. The Apogee looks good with its nice blue anodising and slimline look.

SBIG also have an 8300 but no self guiding. Cooling I think is probably fine although not as good as either the FLI or Apogee (Apogee also does 55C blow ambient although as above slow to get there). Electronics are probably not as good as either the Apogee or FLI which both have super clean electronics with FLI slightly better than Apogee but not much in it.

FLI has RBI control if you use Maxim DL. That is residual images that can last in the next image taken without this control. Apogee may also have that - they do on some models not sure about the 8300.

FLI + filter wheel + offaxis guider would be about US$4800 am guessing perhaps a tad more. Plus filters of course.

SBIG do make a special filter wheel with 38mm filters for the 8300 which reduces cost of needing 50mm round filters. Also their base camera is the cheapest of FLI and Apogee which are usually the same or close in price.
SBIG ST8300 is something like US$2000 but it needs a filter wheel and off axis guider.

Depends on whats important to you in the above. If an integrated system is what you need the QSI sounds the way to go. If you want the best of each system then the FLI is the way to go. Apogee is a close 2nd choice. If price is paramount then SBIG is possibly the lowest.

Greg.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

The main difference I think between the FLI and the QSI ......better electronics of the FLI

I don't entirely agree with that Greg. The electronics on the QSI are high grade too.

Yes the FLI has high speed downloads but both produce quite noise free images with little introduction of noise through the electronics.

[Alchemy (Clive)]

Having bought a ccd a couple of years ago, the desire to upgrade is here, me I'd just buy the QHY version, at about half the price it may not be exactly as good as some of the others but it would have to be more than half as good and given tech upgrades something more desirable will come along sooner rather than later .....

My 2c worth.

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

I don't entirely agree with that Greg. The electronics on the QSI are high grade too.

Yes the FLI has high speed downloads but both produce quite noise free images with little introduction of noise through the electronics.

Yes I shouldn't've said that as to be honest I haven't studied the specs of the QSI.

The best ad for QSI 583wsg is the fact Roland Christen bought one and uses it.

Cheers,

Greg.

[Bassnut (Fred)]

A spanner in the works. Is this for the 10" dob?. Yes the QSI583wsg is tops for the price. But it has low QE, low well depth and ABG. At 1200mm FL (oag less critical), for the same price, a S/H ST10XME/ filter wheel and QHY5 external guide cam would give vastly superior NB performance (albiet at lower res). For your regular done-that tight guided LRGB no fuss pics, the QSI is the go, but you might like to step out of the box?.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Yes I shouldn't've said that as to be honest I haven't studied the specs of the QSI.

The best ad for QSI 583wsg is the fact Roland Christen bought one and uses it.

Cheers,

Greg.

No problem Greg, everything else was true to what I have seen from the actual units. This one thing I had to keep you honest. Regards.

[SkyViking (Rolf)]

Thanks a lot all of you for your insightful advice.
The FLI would definitely be my first choice if it wasn't for the price. If I went for the FLI then I would still need a separate filter wheel, a more expensive 50mm filter set and an off-axis guider (or guide scope etc.)
The QSI is pretty much unbeatable with a total price of US$4140 all up, including installed Astrodon filters.
Regarding the cheaper alternatives, QHY etc, I just think the QSI offers absolutely the most value for money, being an all-in-one solution of high quality materials throughout.

As for narrowband filters and not having space for them in the in-built filterwheel: It's a good point. Personally I have never tried NB, but if I go down that path then I suppose I could have separate filter carrousels with appropriate filter sets. For the time being my main interest lies in capturing RGB images so I'll worry about NB later.

Regarding vignetting, I expect it won't be too bad since I'll also likely be using a ParaCorr which would turn my f/5 into f/5.75. The QSI is advertised as being free of vignetting down to f/2.8(!) - Don't know if it's true in practice though?

As for the cooling, I'll probably wish I had the FLI on those few nights that are particularly warm and muggy here in NZ, but most of the year I should be OK. If I had to, then I woudn't mind trying out the watercooling. I have a permanent setup in my obs so could probably find a relatively safe place for buckets and hoses etc, but of course I'd rather be without.

All considered I think that the QSI will be a good performer as an initial step up from the ToUCam. That in itself will simply be a massive boost to my imaging capabilities. I'm currently imaging with a 640x480 webcam chip with approx 1/3 the sensitivity of a 'real' CCD camera... There is just no comparison.

Again, thanks for all your comments. It's great to have such knowledgeable people at hand when making these decisions.
I'll probably make my purchase sometime around April/May next year, so I still have some time to think it over.