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Old 22-08-2019, 03:31 PM
leee (Thomas)
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Expanding universe

Maybe elemental questions . 1. But if the Universe is expanding - and considering all the individual masses in space - is warping space time, then how could it expand. Or does the whole space/time warp caused by the mass - expand with it ? And what does it leave behind ? An un-warped area ?
2. They said they detected - great "winds' coming from Black Holes. I thought nothing could escape a black hole - even light. ??
3. Dark energy. Does this too - warp space/time ? Or does it have no mass. Just energy?
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Old 22-08-2019, 05:35 PM
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It is wonderful to find you are pondering cosmology...to do such perhaps seperated us from other animals who as far as we know just do not think about such things.
Pondering cosmology no doubt caused humans to come up with the concept of religion so we have so much to be grateful for.

Is the universe expanding..well they say it is but I assure you that it is not and believe me I really do know.

However the fundamentals of an expanding universe presents a picture that it is only space that is expanding and certainly not the matter we call galaxies..
So when the big bang theory proposes that the universe expanded rapidly it only means that the space between things expanded...as to space time..I think one of the best comments I ever heard about space time was "Alex..no one can comprehend space time"...so there you have it...
The key to remember is that what you are in effect questioning is a scientific model that purports to describe reality ... What if the universe is not expanding, what if it is static, what if it is contracting???? All possible however the current direction is expansion and the happy implications of expansion are pushed as being reasonable and compliant with observation.
Personally I believe the big bang is a contrivance suited to a determination to track things to a creation point which strangley is acceptable to most religious notions of cosmology. How strange religious folk reject big bang when no doubt it's design was to give scientific support to the notions of creation.
So how could science be mislead or guided to something not in keeping with reality...easy...who produces the acedemics of main stream...does not each of those educational institutions attend prayers each morning...one is destined to follow a path set by ones initial education even if at the end of it you disagree you will still hold to their fundamentals...so one must consider the context of our cosmology.
Perhaps the best approach is to realise although you ask questions and folk will come forward with cutting edge answers ..that really no one actually knows zip...we process to know and folk become very convinced they know..but all of that is their illusion.

So you can tell me what happened 14 billion years ago and segment occurances into sub second frames of reference...great ..you are so wonderful.
And yet that is what we are prompted to believe...all I can suggest is to fit all that you find our science implies into a context of ...the idea of the big bang was proposed by a priest..backed up by maths from a guy who represented the foundation of what the priest followed as truth...could there be anything wrong with any of this..no no no..it's all science..peer reviewed by folk who were educated in private (religious) schools who followed the math the argument the logic etc...so that is going to be our best science... Anyways the final point is ..there is no point in believing anything or thinking you (particularly that I have) any answer that reflects reality.
We can only do our best. Our current scientific models are well built, in so far as they can be destroyed easily, if not reasonably valid...expansion I question yet if it is indeed a valid observation so much flows from it...if valid the observed expansion of the universe implies that the notion of a beginning is perhaps reasonable...if our observation of expansion is wrong then the big bang theory is just another idea sent to the dust bin...the problem is..most folk want and must have a start..from that determination everything else flows...but if the universe is eternal, as I certainly find is the only way it can be, then the need for a creator and a big bang disappears as a fleeting notion of improbable mixed with unrealistic reasoning.
My bottom line is...all these things are unknown ..any human who tells you they have the answer are perhaps mistaken..one may as well attribute creation to the feathered serpent of South America ....or simply say..truthfully..I really do not know.
One should look at who tells us what to believe and why...to investigate those answers will give you all you need to know. Who tells you what to believe? Why?
Alex

Last edited by xelasnave; 22-08-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 22-08-2019, 06:36 PM
cwjohn (Chris)
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What a load of vacuous nonsense. I personally know at least 20 astronomer/cosmologists who are atheist and have never attended religious schools.

Leee, there is a number of resources available to you where you can get sensible answers to your questions. PBS spacetime is a good resource on youtube. There are many books on the subject which simplify this subject matter for non-scientists. There are many other resources.

Unfortunately Cosmology is not a simple subject, and you really need a good command of maths to properly understand it, but a bit of effort to at least try to get a grasp of it will generally yield results. However, rest assured those that study this subject (over 4 years undergraduate, followed by 3-4 years at PHD level, and then many years after that) are the cream of the intellectual crop, and religion or any other non-scientific claptrap is the last thing in their minds.
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Old 22-08-2019, 07:31 PM
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What a load of vacuous nonsense. I personally know at least 20 astronomer/cosmologists who are atheist and have never attended religious schools.

Leee, there is a number of resources available to you where you can get sensible answers to your questions. PBS spacetime is a good resource on youtube. There are many books on the subject which simplify this subject matter for non-scientists. There are many other resources.

Unfortunately Cosmology is not a simple subject, and you really need a good command of maths to properly understand it, but a bit of effort to at least try to get a grasp of it will generally yield results. However, rest assured those that study this subject (over 4 years undergraduate, followed by 3-4 years at PHD level, and then many years after that) are the cream of the intellectual crop, and religion or any other non-scientific claptrap is the last thing in their minds.
Which comments specifically do you consider to be,as you put it, nonsense.

I thought I was somewhat even handed but I welcome your direction as to where I have been out of line..I thought at most my rant could be only described as speculative if not indeed less abrasive than the reality sets out.

I gather you draw no link between the big bang and the opportunity of a creation event and if so you are indeed entitled to take such a position but in so doing please do not exclude my opportunity to think what ever it is that I may think.
I do not need to drive the point I make home as it was the main point of concern for those who felt the big bang was a creationist plot all those years ago when it was first presented..check your history...
We are after all talking about cosmology a subject which not withstanding many protests that "their"view is correct is by no means proven or established one way or the other beyond a belief.
However I must say I agree with your sentiment in so far as the accepted model is the only model that can be presented to the masses..It has the merit of all things are backed up in some sort of way.... And so I must say investigation of the current accepted model is perhaps the only model that should be offered to answer questions from the public.
Still your suggestion that I speak nonsense is only an opinion and if you really wish to debate the matter perhaps start with all you have and let me reply Else don't be so abrasive..it is after all a general chat so don't get so upset. Or we could go toe to toe and I will argue against whatever it is you argue for... That will prove only one thing..look cosmology is not irrespective of one's beliefs in the big bang established..it is today but who knows what the future holds..if you think our view in 1000 years will be the same as today well you are definitely wrong.
Still in my view the big bang was presented to offer a scientific foundation for creation and that view has been held by many thru history and whether it be likes that statement or not it is the fact that history recoeds .
Alex
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Old 22-08-2019, 08:39 PM
cwjohn (Chris)
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My purpose in responding was to encourage the OP to research the subject for himself using reputable sources of data and analysing the facts, and to show at least a modicum of respect for those that devote their lives to doing so, and to appreciate that they might just know what they are talking about.

Linking religion to the big bang theory is simply bunk ,and has always been so. Your view of history is simply wrong.

I have absolutely no interest in commenting further.
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Old 22-08-2019, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cwjohn View Post
My purpose in responding was to encourage the OP to research the subject for himself using reputable sources of data and analysing the facts, and to show at least a modicum of respect for those that devote their lives to doing so, and to appreciate that they might just know what they are talking about.

Linking religion to the big bang theory is simply bunk ,and has always been so. Your view of history is simply wrong.

I have absolutely no interest in commenting further.
Your intentions are good which means you are a good man and because you are a good man I will help you find truth.

But know this I am not wrong in relation to the history as to the general response of scientists at the time when the big bang theory was first aired in so far as the objection was the big bang theory was too close to religion...this is a fact ..no question..fact...fact..fact.

Any simplistic research will show the position and I respectfully suggest your do such research rather than responding with a knee jerk that leaves you missing the reality.

I could link to various things but will extend to you the recognition that you are capable of entering Google the simple question "early religious objections to the big bang theory" ... further your reluctance to continue commenting is certainly a wise decision if you wish to continue to assert that at the introduction of the big bang theory was not met with objections that it was religiously motivated..as you can not find that my assertion is not on the mark...
And although the big bang speaks only of the evolution of the universe it takes us back to a point where we are apparently only a mere fraction of a second away from the creation event...so the theory is rather wonderfull in so far as it describes everything but avoids creation if only by mere zillionths of a second.
So simple... my commentary is irrelevant to the fact that back at the first presentation of the theory the main rejection from scientists was that it was too linked to religion to be valid...that's the history there for anyone seeking the truth to research.
Look it up if you dare.
Alex
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Old 22-08-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by leee View Post
Maybe elemental questions . 1. But if the Universe is expanding - and considering all the individual masses in space - is warping space time, then how could it expand. Or does the whole space/time warp caused by the mass - expand with it ? And what does it leave behind ? An un-warped area ?
2. They said they detected - great "winds' coming from Black Holes. I thought nothing could escape a black hole - even light. ??
3. Dark energy. Does this too - warp space/time ? Or does it have no mass. Just energy?
So Leee have we helped at all.?
What question would you really like answered? You do know science has all the answers ..it offers us the only truth applicable to the creation and evolution of the universe and as such excludes all other possible superstitious explanations. It's like evolution offering the only acceptable way to explain the development of life forms on this planet and showing that we are unfortunately...or fortunately related to monkeys and mice,...who would have thought that..but that is what science is able to show us..beyond doubt..unbelievable.. we must appreciate how fortunate we are as it was not that long ago that most folk
believed really crazy things rooted in ancient superstitions that we came from mud.
Any more questions?
Alex
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Old 24-08-2019, 02:18 PM
bobson (Bob)
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https://www.fisica.net/relatividade/...ime.pdf#page44

Scroll up for beginning of the book.
Hope Stephen Hawking is good enough to answer those questions

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