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Old 03-07-2015, 11:10 PM
johngwheeler (John)
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Newbee - should I persist with a spotting scope or get a "real" telescope?

I've recently rekindled a childhood interest in astronomy, and wanted to get some advice on equipment choice. I'm not in a hurry, and happy to do naked eye / spotting-scope observation and visit an astronomy club to get a better idea of my areas (and degree) of interest before I invest more heavily.

I currently have a Celestron Regal M2 80mm ED spotting scope, which I also use for target shooting and general nature observation. I have been trying to use it for astronomical observation from a Sydney suburb, but have quickly come to realise the limitation of using a table-top tripod - almost useless anywhere except on a table or lying on the ground at shallow elevation angles.

I've ordered what I hope is reasonably stable photo tripod that will allow appropriate elevation (Vanguard Abeo Pro). I’ll try taking this setup to darker sites.

However, I'm wondering really how useful an 80mm spotting scope (f6) will be. I had some fanciful notions that I could get a good quality short focal length eyepiece (e.g. 5mm) and use it for planetary observation, but I think I would be limited by the photo tripod, even if the optics held up to nearly 100x magnification. There is no finder on the spotter, and it's pretty hard to locate and track objects without some fine adjustment capability.

There's an almost overwhelming selection of telescopes available, and I have two main decisions:

1) What kind of telescope to buy for my particular situation?

2) How much do I need to spend to have a good experience with the scope?

These are broad questions, I know, so here's some more detail:

I live in a city suburb, so it's often quite light-polluted, although there isn't a lot of really bright street lighting - mostly city glow from Sydney about 12km (7 miles) away. Ideally, I'd like to do some observation from my back garden which is at least not illuminated by any lights. Any setup needs to be small and convenient enough to easily take to more remote location, and quick to deploy.

i) Would a smaller refractor (e.g. 4") be more suitable for urban use than a 6-8" SCT / Maksutov in terms of usability in light-polluted skies? Or does the telescope type make no difference?

ii) What kind of telescope is the most portable with minimal setup time, if I were to seek a darker site? My thinking is that something that makes it easy to set up and view for a an hour or two would get a lot more use that something that takes 30 minutes to set up and take down each session

iii) I will probably start purely with visual observation, but I like the idea of astro-photography. I would ideally like a system that could grow for more advanced use, without having to replace the major components, i.e. a telescope and mount that could be added to (drive motors, computers, camera fittings etc. ) rather than need to be completely replaced.

iv) Regarding price, there is clearly a lot of complete rubbish out there. At the top end (Takahashi, Astro-Physics, Questar etc.), the price is prohibitive, and can't be justified for a beginner. I'm looking for good quality / value ratio in the middle range (like everyone else!). How much is a "reasonable" budget in order to get an instrument of good to very good optical quality and solid mechanical accuracy and reliability? I'm familiar with good quality rifle scopes and would expect to spend US$600-1200 to get something "decent" and up to $2000 for the top tier products. I imagine the story is similar with astronomical telescopes but with a far more expensive top-end. Good optics cost money, I know. (My spotting scope was about US$600 and is mid-range).

I would rather “buy once, cry once” and get something I really enjoy, than make do with inferior quality that doesn’t perform well.

The mount is an unknown quantity for me. I think I should go for a German Equatorial (ease of manual tracking, option of adding drive motors, and essential(?) for photography.) I also imagine that going heavier is better than lighter (so maybe "EQ5" size and above). Other than this I don't know what I should be looking at. One thought is that getting bigger than I need now would allow me to upgrade to a bigger scope later without changing the mount.

So, lots of questions in my mammoth post! If anyone has any recommendations or stories of their own experience, I'd love to hear them.

Many thanks,

John.
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Old 04-07-2015, 02:47 AM
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wavelandscott (Scott)
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I would encourage to head to the Glebe showroom of BINTEL.

Not only can you see and handle the display items but you can also avail yourself of the wisdom and advice of their helpful staff.

They were exceptionally useful to me when I bought my first "real" telescope (an 8 inch dobsonian mounted reflecting telescope).

Clear dark Skies to you!
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:26 AM
glend (Glen)
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This is a dangerous path your contemplatiing, for aperture fever will haunt you the rest of your days. While Bintel is a nice place to shop and ask questions be aware, like any business, they will channel you to what they offer. Check their products online first. Read read read about the types of scopes that best suit your goals. A basic Alt/Az mount sall you need, no motor drives, goto, etc, the Vixen Porta II mount is a good one that could serve you for many years to come and support scopes up to 100mm refractors easily. Even if you wind up with a big 16" dobsonian in years to come, or start astrophotography with an equatorial goto mount, the Vixen Porta II can always fill the need for a grab and go setup. Good luck, research is fun.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:48 AM
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Allan_L (Allan)
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Welcome John,
Observational astronomy and (serious) Astro-photography, are two different bed-fellows that share little in common. The latter being the more expensive route. Few systems allow for both out of the box and awkward add-ons, and ease of set-up and use are the casualties.

Best bang for buck, ease of set up, and ease of use for visual use will always be the Dobsonian. (a Newtonian reflector on a simple alt/az cradle.

Take the same scope and make it available for Astro-photography requires an equatorial mount. This introduces the difficulties of polar alignment, and the fact that the eyepiece can get in some awkward positions for use (not an issue for a camera).

Another quick setup and go would be the SCT (Schmidt Cassegrain) on an alt/az mount. (you can later buy an EQ mount for photography if needed). An SCT on alt/az mount with goto sounds to me to be what you are after. Single arm are cheaper, double (fork) is more steady. Something around 8 inch diameter is probably a good start. Celestron 8SE is good (single arm), Celestron CPC 800 (fork mount) better.

I have had all of the above and they each have their own good points and limitations.

Probably best thing for you is to visit a local observing night and look through various setups and talk to their owners.

One thing for certain, the phrase "I might want to do some Astro-photography down the line" is one that adds most cost and contortion to the solution. Unfortunately, it is uttered by 90% of all newcomers (myself included) and is quite often the key to being lead down the wrong path for the newbie and results in trying to use a setup that can cause frustration and further expense. (Just my humble opinion from experience)

After all of the expensive setups that I have had over the years, I have now settled on the cheaper option of Dobsonian (albeit with goto)

Last edited by Allan_L; 12-07-2015 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:08 PM
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The Mekon (John Briggs)
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John,

I believe your 80mm spotting scope can show more than you realise.

For this reason I advise to hold off purchasing anything else until you have found out the limitations of your present scope. For this you need to get to a reasonable observing site, and either try to extend the spotting scope yourself or enlist someone to assist. I have a friend who has an 8" dob, and when we observe together, I dial up objects in my 18", then he tries to spot the same object using his simple 8" dob fitted with a telrad. It is amazing how many times he can observe the same object!

So further advice is to get a telrad or other 1x finder, some charts etc, and perhaps another eyepiece, depending on what magnifications the scope already offers.

It will be interesting to see what kind of a platform the photo tripod offers, but I have observed many objects with a 60mm F7 refractor mounted on a cheap photo tripod, including resolving double stars down to 2.4".

Last edited by The Mekon; 04-07-2015 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 04-07-2015, 04:00 PM
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madwayne (Wayne)
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Hi John - if you are near the Shire the Sutherland Astronomical Society has an open night, 21 and 22 August. Could be worth a visit to not only see the facility but also talk to members and see their scopes on the observing field. There are always talks on astronomy as well at these nights. Their website is www.sasi.net.au, more details on there. I'm a member and try to get to these when I can.

All the advice in your post is spot on. Good luck with your journey.

Wayne
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:07 AM
Renato1 (Renato)
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To make your 80mm telescope useful you need either a more expensive alt-az mount or the cheaper Orion slow motion control for tripods,
http://www.telescope.com/Orion-Preci...ter/p/7033.uts
which you can get through Bintel. Though I don't like the big knob at the top which always comes loose - so I glued it permanently closed.

Then you need a finder for the telescope, something like this.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Red-Dot-F...item58b7407922
which you can easily attach using those double sided sticky things they now sell for sticking things on walls. A Telrad is better, but it's bigger too.

When it's tricky trying to find something, put one tube of a binocular behind the red dot finder, and it's like having a proper finderscope. Though with my 80mm, I just use a low power eyepiece when the 1X finder has taken me to the correct part of the sky.

Put it this way - I have a 14.5" telescope, and an 8" telescope, but I still find it handy to have an 80mm telescope/slowmotion control/tripod as descroibed above for quick and for wide-angle views of the sky. I suspect that you will be very pleasantly surprised with the magnification capability of your telescope - it should do pretty well on planets up to 180X to maybe 200X. Though you'd have to get used to using the slow motion contol to put the planet on the edge of the field, and waiting for the shake to settle down as the planet moves across the field.

For steadier image, I have the Bintel Alt-Az mount which is more expensive and much better than the slow motion control/tripod option and better than say the cheaper AZ3 mount. Though I prefer the slow motion control/tripod option to the AZ3 mount option.

Then, after you've done some good viewing with your little telescope, you may well be anxious to get a bigger one - but you'll still use your little one.
Regards,
Renato
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:01 AM
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Tinderboxsky (Steve)
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I agree with Renato. I have a spotting scope set up for terrestrial and astro grab and go and it gets a lot of use even though I have larger scopes to use. There is a lot to see and events to observe, more than could be listed here.

But the key, as Renato has said, is a finder, a steady mount and some form of slow motion controls. I have attached photos of my set up. I think they tell the story. You can see that I have fashioned a simple bracket bolted behind the dovetail clamp to hold a handle and the red dot finder

Starting with this and visiting some viewing nights will help you get a clearer picture of the type of observing that interests you and the type of scope to get.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:49 AM
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dannat (Daniel)
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are you still using the zoom eyepiece on the spotter? you may benefit from getting some good eyepieces first before upgrading your scope [the regal gets good reviews on birdforum] & waxing gibbous [member here]has both the 80 & 100mm spotters -check our his review on cloudy nights

a 32mm plossl may help you find objects without a finder -or simply make a small open sight[like on a slug gun] for the end of the barrel

if you can get to an astro club -try the 5mm ep & see what planet views are like
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Old 06-07-2015, 12:21 PM
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Nico13 (Ken)
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Hi John,
Lots of good advice here.
I'll just add a couple of things. One of the biggest frustrations for beginners is actually finding what they are looking for and as a beginner in an area that has some light pollution to contend with just adds to the difficulty so having said that I would suggest as others that your spotting scope will do quite well for a start.
As for finding things to look at, well if you were to put your spotting scope on say an EQ5 goto mount and if possible with a red dot as a finder for a three star align, with a little practice setting up and a three star alignment will have you finding everything you want to try out your scope on.

When I got my first goto mount, an EQ6 Pro I think I looked at more targets in that first night than I had done in the previous few months and it just blew me away as how good it was to able to find things so as you want to be able to setup for a couple of hrs without too much fussing the field of view of the 80mm scope will surprise you.
This would be a vey portable and easily used place to start and even lend itself to beginning some astro imaging.
Good luck with your choices.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:32 AM
johngwheeler (John)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannat View Post
are you still using the zoom eyepiece on the spotter? you may benefit from getting some good eyepieces first before upgrading your scope [the regal gets good reviews on birdforum] & waxing gibbous [member here]has both the 80 & 100mm spotters -check our his review on cloudy nights

a 32mm plossl may help you find objects without a finder -or simply make a small open sight[like on a slug gun] for the end of the barrel

if you can get to an astro club -try the 5mm ep & see what planet views are like
Good idea! I was looking at the Baader Hyperion (probably 17mm) which has good reviews with the Celestron Regal ED scopes. That would give me about 28x and 2.85mm exit pupil, which sounds like a good general purpose setting for general stargazing.

I was thinking about about a short focal length EP (the Baaders apparently don't work in 8mm & 5mm because the scope lacks back-focus distance, so the choice of manufacturer is critical). I think you suggestion to try one at a club viewing evening is excellent - much cheaper than buying an expensive eyepiece and crossing my fingers!

One thing I do notice with my scope looking at planets (particularly Venus) is that there is quite a lot of "coma" (off axis "flare" on one edge) around the planet. It can be minimised by careful focussing and moving my head around a bit or blinking. Is this the scope, internal "floaters" in my eye, or an effect of the atmosphere? Elevation is pretty low (probably 20-25 degrees).
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:08 AM
johngwheeler (John)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico13 View Post
Hi John,
Lots of good advice here.
I'll just add a couple of things. One of the biggest frustrations for beginners is actually finding what they are looking for and as a beginner in an area that has some light pollution to contend with just adds to the difficulty so having said that I would suggest as others that your spotting scope will do quite well for a start.
As for finding things to look at, well if you were to put your spotting scope on say an EQ5 goto mount and if possible with a red dot as a finder for a three star align, with a little practice setting up and a three star alignment will have you finding everything you want to try out your scope on.

When I got my first goto mount, an EQ6 Pro I think I looked at more targets in that first night than I had done in the previous few months and it just blew me away as how good it was to able to find things so as you want to be able to setup for a couple of hrs without too much fussing the field of view of the 80mm scope will surprise you.
This would be a vey portable and easily used place to start and even lend itself to beginning some astro imaging.
Good luck with your choices.
Yes, I've discovered that finding objects and the stability of the mount of the biggest problems at the moment. I have ordered a heavy-duty photo tripod, which I hope will help (I've been using a table top tripod with an elevation slow-motion), but it required me to carry a table around!).

I am also looking at buying a CG-4 type mount, but wonder how I could attach a spotting scope to it. It has a sort of dovetail with a clamp, into which fits a metal bar with various holes through which the telescope is attached (via rings). I've other photos of SCTs which have the metal bar fitting to the body of the scope, which presumably just attaches directly to the dovetail.

Is there some kind of adapter which would allow a spotting scope with a camera adapter to be fitted to an EQ mount?
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Old 21-07-2015, 11:26 AM
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sil (Steve)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
Good idea! I was looking at the Baader Hyperion (probably 17mm) which has good reviews with the Celestron Regal ED scopes. That would give me about 28x and 2.85mm exit pupil, which sounds like a good general purpose setting for general stargazing.

I was thinking about about a short focal length EP (the Baaders apparently don't work in 8mm & 5mm because the scope lacks back-focus distance, so the choice of manufacturer is critical). I think you suggestion to try one at a club viewing evening is excellent - much cheaper than buying an expensive eyepiece and crossing my fingers!

One thing I do notice with my scope looking at planets (particularly Venus) is that there is quite a lot of "coma" (off axis "flare" on one edge) around the planet. It can be minimised by careful focussing and moving my head around a bit or blinking. Is this the scope, internal "floaters" in my eye, or an effect of the atmosphere? Elevation is pretty low (probably 20-25 degrees).

Baader Hyperion, damn great choice! So much better than supplied eyepieces and amazing value for money. Superbly comfortable on the eye. Don't get too hung up on magnification values though. They higher the mag the harder it is to find a target at all and the quicker atmospheric conditions degrade your view. I would recommend a hyperion zoom as its just as good as the primes optically and so easy to zoom out to star hop then zoom in to find your target however try to see if it'll focus in your spotter scope first. I found the baader hyperions worked fine in my small scopes but when i got the zoom it wouldn't.

The "flare" could be the optics of the scope or eyepiece, could be accentuated by cleanliness of either too. Could also be because Venus is so bright. A good clean and a cheap set of eyepiece planetary filters might help you figure it out. If you can get to a club night and try out eyepieces and filters you can work it out and get an idea at the improvements you can get from the spotting scope.

Getting a "real" telescope brings new set of challenges, many people enjoy astronomy with binoculars. If your spotter scope suits your needs then that's fine, i think time at the eyepiece is more important besides in the dark size doesn't matter (much). Just enjoy the sky and try to share the enjoyment. Typically the eyepiece is the weak point when you buy a telescope and the poor optics of a supplied eyepiece can put people off. When I got back into astronomy as an adult I started with a celestron firstscope, a tabletop dob type which got rave reviews... it was crap, horrible views. year later I had a better scope and bought my first eyepieces (8 & 24mm hyperions) and tried them in the firstscope and it came alive! what a great view! I didn't think there would be such a difference. It encouraged me to buy a 100mm tabletop dob, wow! found neptune with that scope. I'd guess you have yet to experience the optics of your scope fully and nightime is very different to daytime viewing so please try to get together with a group at night and try some of their eyepieces in your spotter.
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Old 21-07-2015, 11:44 AM
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sil (Steve)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
Is there some kind of adapter which would allow a spotting scope with a camera adapter to be fitted to an EQ mount?
Yes, you can buy dovetail plates which you can screw into a tripod mount on camera but there is no standard size dovetail on telescope tripods. You may be able to find a rind that can fit around your scope and let you attach a dovetail plate if the scope doesn't have a camera tripod socket on it. Typically you attach the scope tube to the tripod not camera to tripod so you dont stress the camera lens mount with this long heavy tube wobbling off the front, plus to balance it on the tripod too. Mostly dovetails are either wide orion style or narrow vixen style, pretty much covers most skywatcher, celestron gear too. All my gear was narrow until i got my monster scope with wide then i bought an adjustable narrow to wide adapter so i could put my existing scopes on my new mount and i just got some narrow plates to put directly on my cameras. that way i can put any of my scopes or cameras straight onto my best mount or cameras on my smaller tripods. just gives me the greatest flexibility.

creative adapters are common in astronomy, just find someone with machine gear who can make a simple 2/9" imperial whatsit screw into a 7.8mm whosit. whatever the combination somebody has probably built a solution already
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