Outrageous Electricity rise

[Exfso]

Here we go again in SA, just been notified we are getting another 18% rise in the cost of electricity from 1 July also 17.5% increase in gas. WTF is going on here. That corresponds from what the media have said to a 60% increase in the cost of electricity in the last 2 years, yet the wholesale price is supposed to have dropped markedly. Are we being shafted or what?? :mad2::mad2:

[astronut]

Peter,
I could say a lot....but I don't want to start a war!!:lol::lol:

[cventer]

Love to know where all this price rise is from. Is it costing more to get coal to power stations than it did before ?

[casstony]

Sounds like much the same as Victoria; electricity privatisation = bigger bills and less jobs.

[koputai]

Same deal here in NSW, 18% rise coming soon.

We recently had a smart meter installed, so we now have three rates throughout the day. Our peak (2pm - 7pm weekdays) will soon be 50 cents/kwh.

I've begun putting what I can on timers so they don't run in peak times, and preferably so they run during the off-peak period (10pm - 7am) which will be costing around 10 cents/kwh.

We have a neighbour who leaves about 500 watts worth of indoors lights, plus a large plasma TV on 24 hours/day. I don't know how he manages to pay for his electricity wastage!

Cheers,
Jason.

[pgc hunter]

Same thing here, all thanks to John Crumby and his desalination plant. Never will rain again will it? Can't even walk my dog because I'll sink knee-deep in the freaking mud. Idiot :mad2: Ofcourse, let's not forget the carbon dioxide tax that will be foisted on us. Watch the prices skyrocket. :mad2:

[swannies1983]

Yep, won't that make electricity in SA the most expensive in the world?

[leon]

Yep, it is outrageous, about time they got rid of that red head,

Leon

[mswhin63]

I think this can open a can of worms but the electricity supply has been subsidised for too long and now that alternative energy sources are on the rise and requested by industry. This has lead to rises in prices to maintain equity in the market as well as competition especially when other energy sources are being sought.

I idea which I agree with is that there needs to be a standard set to allow for the price parity with new sources of energy so that more market is created for products like solar, geothermal and other technologies. The cost is increasing coal powered prices to remove subsidies.

I don't like it either but it is the natural course of action needed. I do hope that we don't lead down the path of petrol with greedy businesses pushing prices up. Personally as well I feel no essential services should never be able to be listed on the stock exchange either. This drives prices up as well.

[multiweb]

Yes this was scheduled as July 1st which is when the carbon tax kicks in. All rates will rise between 16% and sometime over 20% on your bill. I believe it's applied directly to the rates so before GST but I'm not sure about service availability fees and others but it's fair to estimate your next bill at x1.2.

I doubt the rates will go down ever again now it's in place though. The thing is that this is going to affect a lot more products and services. Refrigerated foods come to mind, Wollies/Coles, etc...

[Poita]

I'm not sure that the SA price rises have a lot to do with the Federal Government, it is privatisation that seems to be the main issue down there.

[mswhin63]

Privatisation is key to all this, as subsidies are in breach of ACCC regulations. I think the ACCC has given some time to make things equitable though.

[brian nordstrom]

:mad2: Yep welcome to New Zealand ?? they used us over there as guinnea pigs to see how much profit they can squeeze out of us , by privatising every thing , and now its slowely creeping over here ,, Greedy PIGS !!!!
Sorry but if NZ was any thing to go by its only gonna get worse !!:shrug: .
Brian.

[traveller]

here we go, again :rolleyes:

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug: I hear you Bo , but people have had enough of this price gouging thats starting to become an every day occurance :mad2:..On every thing ..
Brian.

[Exfso]

It has all turned to crap since privatisation, that is for sure and we are all well and truly screwed, that is for sure. I dont know how pensioners and the like are coping, the mind boggles. How one can justify such ridiculous rises when the wholesale price of electricity is dropping is beyond my comprehension. It reeks of greed I reckon. I would love to have shares in AGL or similar, would be laughing I would say.:shrug:

[Exfso]

Hey Bo, do you like paying a fortune for electricity mate?:P

[BPO]

I was going to say that maybe this could have the silver lining of causing more people to use fewer lights, but then I remembered how massive increases in the price of cigarettes, alcohol and fuel didn't reduce consumption there. :(



Until the beginning of 2011 I was employed by NZ electricity generators, and I can tell you the only thing costing them more was the ever increasing number of office staff. They implemented a moratorium on hiring technical people - engineers, electricians, mechanical fitters, etc - yet at least quadrupled - at least - the number of admin positions, with no end in sight. That's the reason for their rising costs - the massive increase in utterly worthless admin people - but the main reason for increasing prices for consumers was simply profit(eering).

[Astro_Bot]

One of the problems might be that before privatisation, electricity infrastructure was State-funded and only partly recouped via consumer electricity charges. Since privatisation, the main (probably only) source of funds is the price. The rise in prices might not be simple profiteering. If capital investment (which may include upkeep and refurbishment of existing assets) was underfunded in the past when under State management, then the only way to fund that investment now is to increase electricity prices.

I'm sure there is some profiteering going on as well (isn't there always) but it may be more complicated than it looks. We'd have to see the balance sheets for the last few years to make an informed judgement.

[koputai]

Yes, it's bad that prices are going up, of course.

BUT, there is something everyone can do about it........

Use less electricity! Australians are very wasteful, not only of electricity, but water, food, their inteligence, other people's money.....

If you want a smaller power bill, be more sensible about your usage.

Cheers,
Jason.

[swannies1983]

Good advice but you can only go so far (unless you want to live under candle light). You go out of your way to reduce usage yet get an even higher bill than the previous one. Having the most expensive electricity price in the world is not a record to be proud of.

[stephenb]

Unfortunately that is a very simplistic answer which it touted when this argument arises. That's like saying to an overweight person "Well, just eat less!".

I know of families, including the aged family members who now are almost living by candlelight , as well as foregoing heating, and it doesn't make a dent in their energy usage. A majority of the costs are associated with 'service charges'. I have had to assist people like this in need and it's not good to witness.

This is 2012: not 1912. No one should be living in these conditions. Unfortunately the homeless and disadvantage in this country have it a lot worse. :( . Enough said. I'm going back to my hot water bottle.

[silv]

yeah - saving.
or how about solar energy and feeding that back into the provider's network?
do you have such (subsidized) models in NZ or Oz?

I just read that in NZ, houses will need to comply a certain insulation standard from soon-ish onwards.

I am from Germany - and it grieves me horrendously how no house here in NZ has double glazing or proper insulated walls, floors and ceilings.
Not even the posh 6-year old I am currently renting a room in.

Admittedly, we don't get temperatures here like -15 for weeks on end but still - the power consumption of the dehumidifier and heater during winter is like crazy because of these buildings.
In South-Ireland, comparable to the climate/temperature here, in Auckland/NZ, I lived in a (luxurious) stone town house apartment (~80 years old). Outside walls 40-50 cm thick. And double glazing.
There was NO need for heating. Except for that 1 week in January 2010
when temperatures dropped below zero for almost a week.

The outside walls of this house here are less than 20cm. And all those beautiful panorama windows are single glass panes.

There is soo much sun here - if only the house could store the heat somewhere ... no chance, though, in these thin paper walls.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

In NSW we are being told it is due to heavy investments in infrastructure, necessary following years of under-funding by successive State Govts.

That may be true or partly true, but it does not ease the pain of a sudden jump in costs way in excess of the CPI. This is STILL the case even if you were the most efficient of electricity users to begin with.

So I suppose profligate wasters of electricity are in the best position ;) They have more scope to make savings. I've changed suppliers and claimed an old fart's rebate, but it is still going to hit me right in the electric blanket. I wonder if my EQ5 will run on 1/2 amp instead of 2?

Cheers

[theodog]

I have net feed into the grid, but as of yet recieve no payment (from Govt. or Company) for it. They are taking my generated power and onselling it to other customers for pure profit.:mad2:

This is robbery -yet there seems nothing can be done.:shrug:

[silv]

wow, jeff, but at least the company takes what you produce off from your 'consumption and connection' bill, don't they?

(I faintly remember that it costs money to make the generated power usable for the network. ....?)

[dj gravelrash]

iselect.com.au now has a search engine for cheaper gas and electricity comparisons.:thumbsup:

[AndrewJ]

Gday Jason

That only goes so far.
We were told we had to go to a user pays privatised system
yet nearly 1/3 of my bill is still "supply charges".
Its like telling people to buy cars, pay rego and insurance etc etc
"to keep local industry afloat"
but then dont drive them:question:
It would be interesting if someone could tell us what management costs were pre privatisation and post privatisation.
I suspect we are paying much higher executive and administration costs these days "relative" to previous, simply because of the duplication of all the "managements".
I also suspect a lot of the profits are going overseas now, where as before, it was put back into maintaining the system.

Andrew

[hotspur]

Its not good,all this rise in power bills.recently I had to cook 8 plum puddings,on an electric stove -it would have added to the power bill,so
I took the big boiler outside and put it on a blacksmith forge with some charcol
I just came out and turned the handle once every half hour.They cooked over 5 hours and all turned out well.

Over the last few weeks people have been coming to collect charcol,and use it-have not had any demand for charcol for ten years,its a bit odd using a 100 year old forge and charcol,-what's old is new again.Not much help for city folk,but maybe there might be some ways of lowering your bill with a bit of lateral thinking.

The way they keep rising the bills,some people will really be affected.

[stardust steve]

Yep, shafted with a capital "S". Last water bill from my dark site was $70. Upon breaking down the bill, we used $1.50 worth of water, the rest was supply charges and levies.
The same goes for the electricity.
It is surely not right :(

[FlashDrive]

Sooner or Later ... there will be a MASS REVOLT .... people just won't take this anymore.

Hope it happens ... !!

Flash :mad2:

[GrahamL]

talking to a elec worker a few years back, I have a suspicion when the privitise thing kicked off the buyers didn't do the math to well to start with , he told me loads of them where redundafied straight off the bat a year down the track they realised they actually needed these
guys they'd given the boot,, and wasn't that a drama due to the terms of there redudancies, they were reemployed as "consultants" or some such nonsence to get around the fine print .

Also part of the problem imo is that we are increasingly using more power, I work near a large substation thats just had new upgrades done over the last year , the existing infastructure I'm told was on paper was suposed to meet demand until 2015, new homes do seem quite large these days , pools and air con all burn that coal I guess ,

perhaps were a big part of the problem ?

[BPO]

And yet I live in the heart of the Mackenzie high country, where -20 is not unknown on occasion, and -10 is common. The basic-as-anything huts up at my observatory at almost 2,000m have 150mm of insulation all 'round, but you'd be hard-pressed to find even a new house down in the surrounding area with double-glazing and decent insulation. Or, as you said, anywhere in NZ, for that matter.

Why?

Because costs and prices associated with construction and property are as high in NZ as anywhere in the OECD, and incomes are amongst the lowest. So people have to throw another log on the fire if they're to avoid freezing to death. Or they can use the heat pump and find themselves on the brink of bankruptcy when the power bill arrives, because electricity prices are as high as those anywhere, if not actually higher.

We have the highest solar insolation values in the country, even higher than those for Nelson/Blenheim/Marlborough, but you'll find very few solar energy systems of any kind. My wee mountaintop observatory probably generates as much-or-more electricity than all the other PV systems in the area combined.

At least the Lucky Country Aussies don't have to worry about the cold! :D

[silv]

now, when you start blaming lack of insulation and use of solar energy on uncontrollable factors like pricy housing markets -
I will throw in the cultural difference of building towards forever vs building like will-do-for-the-moment.
Which of course is induced by the earth quakes - which will eventually render probably every house unusable?

[silv]

Mackenzie - what a wonderful area to be living in! You are so lucky :)

[gts055]

I wonder if minimising power consumption has a catch 22 effect in that if most users substantially cut their demand, the suppliers could increase the cost to compensate for the revenue loss. Mark

[BPO]

At risk of taking this so OT it's not funny, I don't think that's a truely valid argument.

For one thing, if you'd suggested such a thing to Christchurch residents and builders they'd have laughed in your face. Nobody there expected an earthquake in that area, and certainly not a big one.

Even here in the Mackenzie, where the Alpine and Ostler faults are actually visible, nobody thinks much about the quake risk. The number one factor when it comes to quality of construction (or lack thereof) is cost.

Sorry for going off the rails here! Now, back to the Australian electricity price discussion... :)

[BPO]

I don't know about Australian electricity market players, because I have no experience with them, but I can say that NZ generators and distributors have an enormous margin. Simply vast. That's not supposition, or heresay, or rumour. It's based on my years of working with and for them. They make a lot of money. They can afford to trim their profits. But they won't.

[TrevorW]

You know who gets screwed by this, the average joe blow, the rich don't give a ****e,the rich all had the spare capital to invest in solar buying 5kw systems when 10 year rebates were high and are reaping the rewards, receiving nice excess rebates cheques that pay off their systems in under 5 years.

Here in WA we still have a State owned energy producer yet prices have doubled since Barnett was elected and are still rising, to top it off his Govt scraped the renewable energy buy back scheme rebates.

Now we have a situation where Western Power is the wholesaler, Synergy is the retailer, They buy electricity from WP at a 7c KWH wholesale rate then sell it back to the consumer at 20c kwh

Anyone who now buys a PV System now will receive the wholesale rate as a rebate. So energy you produce will cost you 13 kwh and they class this a fair and reasonable.

Bullocks the Liberal Govt in this state can kiss my butt

[clive milne]

(Some of) The views expressed in this forum reinforce my belief that democracy without an effective fourth estate is in practice a really, really bad idea.

~c

[TrevorW]

Yes but who could we rightfully trust to give that mantel too :question:

[traveller]

No, like the rest of us, I will pay for what I use. Sorry if my first post is a bit insensitive and I apologise if you took offence.



I agree Brian. Everyone seem to have a theory on it, so here is mine: our insatiable demand for middle class welfare (of which my family is a recipient of).
It goes like this: pollies dont give a $h!t about rusted on labor or liberal voters, middle class swinging voters in marginal seats holds keys to power. Howard realised this and won many elections on it, Rudd and Gillard the same. So whoever is in power gives money to bribe whoever will vote to keep them in power. Result: middle class welfare on everything from health insurance (we, that is you and I, fork out $3 billion a year on the 30% rebate on private health insurance :eyepop:) to child care rebates (not means tested).
Therefore the pollies has the find the money somewhere (read some other parts of the population) to fund it all. So the usual whipping boys cop the lot: pensioners, single income families, people in high income brackets and other rusted on voters.
To be fair, both Lib and ALP govts have done some good stuff, the latest being raising the tax free threshold and introducing more generic medicines (the less said about the carbon tax bribe the better :rolleyes:).
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. To quote Mencke, for every complex problem there is a solution thats simple, and wrong. I hope I am wrong, but the signs tell me otherwise. :)
Bo

[Poita]

Interestingly, in the mid 90s, the average NSW household used 4000KWh per year, now it averages 7500KWh per year, so I reckon we could all cut back a bit.

My power bill for the last 12 months was just over 3000KWh, and I could still trim that by 10% or more if I was a bit more vigilant.

The Garnaut report from last year makes some interesting points on real pricing compared to 1980s levels.

http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/update-papers/up8-transforming-electricity-sector.pdf

[clive milne]

Gina Rinehart of course... Ohhh, wait a second, we already have.

[TrevorW]

Poita works for some but what happens in those instances where people need heating or air con due to age or medical conditions etc

fair call in that we don't need 5 TVs, six computers,. three stereos, four fridge/freezers etc in one household

Clive not another red head

[clive milne]

:lol:

Anyway...at some point we are going to have to accept the folly of a lifestyle based on fossil fuels, we can either use our intelligence to manage a transition to an alternative lifestyle in the least painful way, or accept the natural consequences of ignoring the problems facing us.

[clive milne]

Cost of energy derived from carbon intensive sources trending at +20% per year
Cost of energy derived from clean renewables trending at -30% per year...

:screwy:

Hmmm... wonder which way the wind is blowing..?

[koputai]

Yep, the people who ***** loudest are the ones who leave their computers running 24/7, their tv's all day, and their lights on all night. They probably also get the government subsidies.

Before anyone posts these types of threads, they should list who they voted for at a state and federal level the last four elections.

Cheers,
Jason.

[torana68]

hmmm.... anyways the best solution to power bills is?
vote for a particular political party? cant see that working, there is only so much fossil fuel on this planet :)
turn everything off? not really an option, I need light, I need a fridge, I have one tv :( it still costs me more than id like
solar? thinking about it but to have zero cost is it possible? what size system do I need?

[pgc hunter]

Not for the 'Milky Bar Kid' or his ranga Narre Warren bogan accent succubus replacement that's for damn sure. Both of these disgusting alien creatures (and their state-level minions) have single handedly destroyed this country and our quality of life.

[Poita]

Enough of the red-head bashing guys, my daughters cop it enough at school, it really, really hurts them to read it here from people they consider scientists.

(Anyway, I think most of the privatisation happened before The Rudd/Gillard government came to power, and the current NSW sell off is happening under the Liberal State Gvt, so it doesn't seem to matter which party is in power.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-14/dempster-nsw-power-privatisation-an-act-of-vandalism/3664156)

Just out of interest, what is everyones KWh usage per year?

I just double-glazed some of our windows this week, it gets down to below -10 at night in Mudgee and I sleep in a sleep-out (walled-in verandah) and the temps were basically the same inside as outside so I had to sleep with a beanie on!

I did the job myself, and it made a huge difference. I used thin polycarbonate sheeting so it came to about $15 per window.

It was an interesting point about the lack of insulation and housing design in this country. Houses are so much bigger now and have no eaves, single glazing and thin walls and no yards. We would be so much better off with houses 25% smaller that were insulated properly, and the houses would still be twice the size of the ones being built when I was a kid.

[Poita]

Really, they did all that in just five years?

I didn't vote for them, but I can't quite see that all of these problems began in 2007.

[MattT]

Getting back to electricity prices, the only decent thing done has been the introduction of 'smart meters' here. My bills went down 25% leading me to think I was being ripped off long ago...any one else had that experience?
Matt

[andyc]

I've been pretty shocked at the poor insulation in houses here, since I move from the UK last year. The winters in Melbourne are really mild compared to what I'm used to, but, my energy bills are much, much higher in winter. Why? Insulation, or total lack of. The house I live in leaks like a sieve, has single-glazed windows and clearly has had very little thought at all put into keeping the warm in and the cold out, or in summer, the cold in and the warm out.

Every time I put the heating on (as little as reasonably possible) I'm wasting energy, CO2 and money, not even using it to successfully warm my house. That kind of waste, multiplied over a city, is absolutely enormous, and can be measured, in Australia, in coal plants. Being in a rented place, there's little I can do about it now except plug the obvious gaps, like the stupid slatted window in the toilet. Should I buy a place here, the first thing I'll be doing is getting the insulation and glazing up to scratch. Then I'll watch my energy bills plummet. Then I'll add some solar, and be in business :D. There's no reason in Australia to waste vast amounts of (largely non-renewable and polluting) energy on wasteful heating and cooling just because houses haven't been built properly.

[TrevorW]

Australian home designs have not stayed conducive to weather but changed due to cost and profits.

Cheaper to build a 28 course ceilings than 32
Cheaper to have no eaves than verandahs with open eaves for circulation
Cheaper to have single glazing than double
Cheaper to have no fireplace
Cheaper to have no insulation

a lot of basic principles where removed from housing designs in Oz to reduce cost and increase profit and speed up construction time

[brian nordstrom]

;) Why do you think I am now working and living here in OZ , even tho its getting worse here , its nowhere as bad as NZ is , I put up with it for years and when I had a chance to bail , there was no question , NZ's stuffed .
The average person ( worker ) is struggling at every turn over there and the powers that be squeeze even harder for the extra $$$'s out of us . GRRRR! :mad2: ..
So yes , I agree .
Brian.

[Octane]

Stop scaring me away, Brian! I hope to move to NZ (for good) in the not too distant future. :)

H

[PCH]

I'm guessing that's exactly right.

Everyone is jumping on the solar panel bandwagon trying to get their bills down to zero or less. But the electricity company still has to supply the service to everyone, and cover costs, whilst receiving revenue from an ever decreasing number of paying customers.

Then there's the ridiculously high feedback tarriffs that the first group to install panels were promised. These promised rates are honoured as far as I know, although new installations don't attract anything like the same rates. So having realised that was a major cock-up, they now need to cover that cost too. So some of your rise goes to pay for your neighbours' excessive feedback tarriff, - doesn't seem quite right imo.

[jjjnettie]

:)

[avandonk]

Get over it folks 'the user pays!'. We who are in charge will simply pay each other a few million for our brilliant management. You twits who let your Government sell your assetts to us are the problem. We rewarded these idividuals suitably. We will now gouge out a full return on our investment irregardless of the long term consequences. Our technique is to blame everyone but ourselves and confuse things by blaming the carbon tax. By the time you morons work out how you have been robbed we will be long dead! So long and thanks for all the millions.


Bert

[leon]

Opp's my mistake, I will stay out of this one.

Leon

[Colin_Fraser]

I don't like rising costs either.
But then I look at what's going on in places like Syria and my rising costs pale into insignificance.
I wonder how many have written to their local MP or energy suppliers and voiced their concerns.
My guess is NONE.

[clive milne]

I must be bored, but here goes:
(And fwiw, I am no fan of the Labour party, wild horses could not get me to vote for them)

But... PGC's comments deserve a little context to see them for what they are.

In the period of time where (according to Mr Hunter) our country and way of life has been destroyed, single handedly by the dreaded ranga no less:

Our GDP has increased 15% compared to the OECD total in the same period. (Head and shoulders the best performer of any developed country)

Our minimum wage once adjusted for purchasing power parity is the highest in the OECD.

Our minimum wage relative to our average wage is the highest of any OECD country.

Our government debt as a percentage of GDP is the third lowest of all OECD countries... the U.K has 10x the percentage liability that we have for example.

When you compare the percentage of our income siphoned off in the form of various taxes in relation to all OECD countries, you will see that the truth of the matter with all emotive BS and political rhetoric aside is we are actually amongst the lowest taxed people in the developed world.... There are only 6 countries in the OECD where you get to keep more of your wage.

Never mind income, let's talk accumulated wealth... Australians rank second of all countries in the OECD, beaten only by the Swiss.

Also... More than three quarters of us have sufficient personal wealth to put us in the top 10% bracket. ie) In real terms, we are the wealthiest people in the world.

Our life expectancy when viewed in the context of the amount it costs us to achieve in terms of health care liability puts us third behind Italy and Japan.

By all means dig further if you feel inclined
http://www.oecd.org

However, I would suggest that if you are not prepared to do some real research and critical thinking, what about you appreciate what you have and stop throwing rocks where they are not deserved.

~c

[theodog]

I'm one. No reply yet



OK then, pay up!
My solar power is sending electrons out to who knows where. Sooooo I can only assume you are all using them. Time to pay up.
Send cheques to .........:D

[strongmanmike]

:eyepop: What??? NOOOOO!!!! and with the horrible, nasty, uncaring, devil worshiping Greens at the helm running the country, don't let this sickly good news get out in case the facts are actually believed :scared: :driving: :rofl:

Mike

[Larryp]

I live in a small 2 bedroom 1950s fibro box, which of course has been heavily renovated. 3 years ago, I accepted the NSW govt offer on solar electricity and installed a 1.5 Kw system on my roof, and at the same time I converted my electric hot water, heating and cooking to gas. I insulated the roof, and installed vinyl cladding to the external walls to give me good insulation.
The combination of a SMALL house (all I need), solar power and gas, with good insulation means my electricity is ALWAYS in credit, which I then use to pay my gas bill. My TOTAL energy costs per annum are about $200.00, and I have 3 split system aircons I use in summer!
Trouble is, people want McMansions with everything that opens and shuts-then complain about running costs.

[marki]

The only thing missing from the OECD statements is that "all of this has been achieved on the back of the highly productive, innovative, hard working, resource rich Western Australians" as it sure isn't coming from the rest of Australia which continues to suck WA dry. Imagine what your power bills would be like let alone employment if that little piece of paper in the House of Lords was signed recognising WA's right to exist as a sovereign nation seperate from the rest of Australia. In any case just vote for me at the next election and I will make it all better:P;):D.

Mark

[pgc hunter]

Great advice. Speak the truth, and you'll get the obligatory lecture from the usual suspects who are far out of tune with the reality facing many Australians.

After all, what's a $200 increase in electricity bill every few months for someone that owns an OTA more expensive than most people's cars eh?
News flash, the average battler doesn't give a crap about what the min wage-to average ratio is, how we compare to other OECD or whatever nations, or how we have the highest life expectancy after Japan... doesn't change the fact that prices here are sky high relative to many other nations and said prices are increasing almost exponentially. A $550-600 weekly wage doesn't go very far at all here, factor in $250-300 for rent, $100 for food, $50 for fuel, plus a few for other necessities, and you dont have very much to play with at all. Buying a house on that wage, forget it. Fancy numbers are not going to put food on the table or erase the fact that electricity costs hundreds more than it used to be for people trying to make ends meet. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I shall steer clear of this thread from now

[AndrewJ]

Gday Mark



Hmmm lets see.
For a long time, WA was a basket case ( economically ),
supported by money from the East.
Now the boots on the other foot.

I suppose ( if you were a sovereign nation )
you may have suffered a "takeover" before you got rich,
and we would be speaking with someone else :D
Maybe if they sold "us" LNG at the same rates you sell it to the Japanese and Chinese, our energy would be cheaper???

Andrew ( really a croweater, but love a good interstate barney )

[mswhin63]

Wonder if it is possible to identify the cost comparison under freedom of information so that pressure can be placed using the media. Or whether the price is actually the same.

We more than likely use more gas than most other countries we are exporting too so in business sense should be cheaper. But excuses will prevail either way.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Malcolm

I worked up at Karratha building the first LNG train.
Was there when the first drops came out :-)
IIRC it was being sold at a markedly lower price than
it could be got in Oz, but thats also a function of
scale/bulk purchasing.
Be interesting to see what the current prices are.

The funniest part of the whole exercise was that in Karratha
( circa 1986 ) everyone was on horrendously expensive "bottled" gas.
So i guess "expensive" energy is nothing new.

Andrew

[Allan_L]

Electricity Price Increases: (Disclaimer: IMHO and not necessarily correct for all or any regions)
1. Main cost component - Coal. Overseas demand has led to increased prices in the export of Coal. So local prices have increased too, of course.
2. Other main cost - Insurance. Huge increases in insurance costs over last decade due to natural disasters, thirds party litigation wins, and workers compensation.
3. Shareholder - State Government - demanding huge increases in dividends paid to the Government. (sometimes exceeding PAT)
4. Infrastructure Costs - refer 3 above. Due to ministerial direction not to invest in any new infrastructure over last two decades, huge investments now required.
5. Privatisation - Due to potential sale yielding quick (albeit short term) positive cash flow, and possibility of passing on need to invest in new infrastructure. Perceived competition was introduced to make them appear more attractive. Electricity now has a derivatives trading market. Profit takers dominate. Refer 3 above
6. Carbon Tax - Final nail in the coffin.

Some might think the above is probably classified, and that Mr Public is not supposed to know. [OOPS: did I say that out load.]

[andyc]

Very well said Clive Milne. I come from the UK, where national debt is something like 85% of GDP - essentially British children and grandchildren will be paying for their parents' and grandparents' excesses. Hearing Australian politicians grouse about "getting back to surplus" (a pipe dream for most other Western economies), and worrying about the poor state of their economy, rings very hollow indeed. Be happy that in Australia we live in a very wealthy country with a tiny fraction of the economic troubles of the rest of the world!

I see a few mentions of the carbon tax - clearly it's going to be made a scapegoat of every single price hike and job loss over the next few months, whether guilty or not. Abbot & Co, with plenty help from Rineheart and Murdoch, will see to that. For an alternate view on the economic effect of CO2 reduction measures, a read of this article is refreshing, where a carbon pricing initiative has been shown to strengthen, not weaken, economies (http://www.skepticalscience.com/carbon-pricing-alarmists-disproven-by-rggi.html). For energy bills, it should be remembered that while there will be a component of the carbon price in the energy bill rise, most consumers should get that particular money back through other rebates/tax cuts. Equally I accept that whether that happens correctly is at the whims of politicians and bureaucrats, who are tricky beasts whether left or right. But it should be noted that the net cost rise to consumers will be dominantly from the first five ponts of Allan_L's list (and should be entirely those five points), not the carbon tax.

[traveller]

Andy, you forgot to mention that most whinging Aussies are descendants from whinging poms ;) (cheap shot, I know, pls don't take too much offence :)).
Yes, ANY OECD economies will revolt just to get where Australia is at the moment. I still hold that the unchecked middle class welfare in this country has turned generations into self serving narssesitic swinging voters who are willing to bully whoever is in power to get their share of handouts and subsidies.
Off topic now, so I will shut up.
Bo

[andyc]

None taken! :) Anyway, Poms are usually English, at least when it comes to rugby and cricket ;) - boy do they complain when big football tournaments are on and they go out to Germany on penalties! Us Scots have had many worse names thrown at us, and probably including whingeing along the way...

[FlashDrive]

Please don't " fire arrows " at me .... I'm not here to be " smug " ... but I have to agree with Larry.

Yesterday ... I received my power bill ....( 10 months ago or there abouts.. .. I got rid of the electric stove ... put in a gas one ... installed a 2kw Solar Array... and not to much later ... got rid of the electric hot water system ... and installed a new Solar Hot Water system.

After I had done all of the above .... my next power bill was $144.50 in credit ..... yesterday my most recent power bill is showing $213.47 in credit.

Sure ... I forked out the best part of $8,000 to do all of this ( my choice and paid cash ... not under finance )... but it's been nearly a year now and I have not had to pay a single power bill since..!!

For heating ... We have a reverse cycle aircon' unit ... which when used for heating ... cost's 13c per hr..... information supplied from the Electricity Authority.

I'm not here guys to ' rub it in ' ... I do fully understand what your dealing with .... pure GREED ( and lack of maintenance by previous Govt' owners ) for a very necessary item in today's modern world.

To re-coup my outlay ....if prices continue to rise ... probably in the order of 3-5 years.... and provided the ' buy back ' tarriff remains the same.

If you can afford to do it ... and rebates are still available ... it's a good move.

Flash :hi:

[Exfso]

I heard on the news this morning that it is official. South Australia is now the most expensive place in the world for the cost of Electricity, what a dubious honor. :screwy: when the price rises hit, the minimum kwh rate we will be paying will be in the order of 35c, what a rort. In summer, this will be close to 40c/kwh, not bad considering 2 years ago we were paying less than 17c/kwh from memory. And people wonder why South Australians are so pissed off with these rises.

[TrevorW]

Fair and equitable rebates are still available in some states yet not others

The Federal Govt subsidised the intallation cost, while the State Govt managed the REBS

Unfortunately for most of us IMO they all got it wrong, while the rebates being offerred at state levels where high so was the cost of installing a PV system

Watch the cost drop dramatically (has started already) when all states stop offering rebates and the price of a PV system is no longer subsidised Federally.

If it's like WA people will see no benefit in going solar if the electricity supplier doesn't offer at least a 1:1 rebate

[GeoffW1]

Well, I've written to both. Presently they blame someone else.

Cheers

[Exfso]

Geoff, I reckon writing to the local MP's and getting a decent response would be akin to trying to stick a pound of butter up a bull's bum with a read hot darning needle. IE impossible. There would be so much "duck shoving" going on, on both sides of the fence.

[Larryp]

Flash is right-people should take advantage of solar power rebates and subsidies. Its quite remarkable what a simple 1.5KW system will make to your bills, and these systems are now half the price I paid ($3000.00) Solar electricity should be actively encouraged by governments instead of wasting tons of money on NBN,etc.

[Kevnool]

I have not read any of the previous comments but you lot with solar panels making it cheaper.....well someone has to make up the shortfall...

[Larryp]

We simply took up an offer by the state govt., which was available to everyone else as well.
The point I am trying to make is that solar should be subsidised to the point everyone can have it-a possible use for the despised carbon tax?
Think of the reduction in pressure on the existing generator capacity that this would provide.

[marki]

Very much tongue in cheek Andrew, just pointing out how far the stats really are from the truth and the recent statements made by big red i.e we should all share in this great minning boom etc etc. For those West Australians not involved directly with minning life sucks. Prices here are sky high based on the assumption we are all earning 350K per year. Building, manufacturing, retail etc are all screwed but we do have the fastest growing economy in the world. Now it is a fedral agenda to let you all share in our pain. Wonder what would happen if China stopped buying?

Mark

[AndrewJ]

Gday Mark

Nothings changed then ;)
When i was at Karratha in 86, a two bedroom townhouse cost nearly $400 per week. The locals couldnt compete.
There was a good discussion on local radio last night here re
the "flyin flyout" offers being made to get people to move west
but when they see what the cost of moving and living is,
they say no thanks. Its only a small percentage getting the big bucks
but they sure earn it.
On a side note, i remember a quote made by ( Bondy i think )
after everything crashed back then.
It was pointed out to them that WA was a basket case etc etc etc
by an "east coast" reporter.
He quipped, something like
"We're both down the drain. We had a party, what have you got to show for it??"
Gotta luv that attitude



Not IF but when. I guess there will be a lot of people unemployed.

Andrew

PS Can you still get spares for your D9 at the local corner shops?????

[clive milne]

Ok, I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
In your previous post you specifically attributed the destruction of Australia to Julia Gillard &/or the Labour government in general (I'm not sure which). I posted OECD figures which showed that Australia, far from being destroyed is actually an economic poster child compared to everyone else in the world given the state of the world economy.
In response, you suggest that these are not the pertinent markers to judge the situation objectively. Well, I disagree but wont argue the point.
On the other hand, the markers that you suggest are relevant are interesting and deserve some contemplation.

Let's see how they stack up against your assertion of Australian economic disaster at the hands of Julia Gillard:

Housing price:
117909
The period of dramatic inflation happened BEFORE the current political party took office at the start of 08 and ironically, fell for the the 12 months following that election. Not that that had anything to do with the choices made by, or influence of, the federal government. The fact that global housing prices show strong correlation to Australian house prices indicates that in the absence of some local catalysing event, ie) sub-prime crash - USA, or the Chinese driven resources boom in Australia, the federal government doesn't have that much impact in the whole scheme of things, so it isn't really fair to criticise (or praise them) for the lion's share of what happens on the street.

Fuel pricing:
I know this is a favourite whipping horse of yours... Joolia threatening your God given right to tow a caravan around at your whim with her insane fuel price agenda...
117895

But wait a second...
:shrug:
Fuel is cheaper for us now than it was in 2008. even with no adjustment for inflation AND a carbon price ... :screwy:
So you'll forgive me if I suggest that I am still struggling to see your point...

As for electricity prices, are these determined at a Federal level...?
No...

So the way I see it, Australia has not been destroyed in the terms that you stipulate and certainly not at the hands of the federal government.

That is not to say that I think they are deserving of scathing criticism (both sides of the political spectrum), but let's be realistic when it comes to apportioning blame and the underlying factors that determine our quality of life.

Emotive and poorly conceived rants serve no purpose other than to confuse the issues facing us and can only lead to poor choices being made in the future.

[strongmanmike]

Now Clive, I hear what you are saying and accept your clear supporting evidence but I... just..... can't..... stop.... sa..ying..compl...ete...unssssus... bstantiiii...ated ruuu...bbish :sad:...anyway I' believe Andrew Bolt and I am sticking with him cause that's just how it is cause he says so, so it must be :mad2:

[clive milne]

:lol:

Classic...

btw Mike, If you are up Cairns way in November... let me shout you a beer.

best,

~c

[AdrianF]

Don't know how to be more frugal than we are and still getting large bills. Last one paid a week ago was 800+ and we are t home 12 hours a day. Leave at 6am get home 6pm no lights left on all power points are turned off 1 maybe 2 lights at night TV off at 10 pm turned down the temp on hot water to 60 degrees (was set at 75 by previous tenant) no aircon or heaters. What more can I do?

Adrian

[Allan_L]

Hi Adrian,
That sounds incredible ?
Do you check that the readings on the bill agree to your power meters?
How many KwHrs did they bill you for on that bill?
Is your Hot Water Off Peak? Is that separate on the bill?
What is the split up of the bill?
What is the Rate per KwHr they have charged for each split?
Is that for three months?
How many people live in your house?
Do you run exterior (flood lighting?
No halogen lights I hope (down lights etc) they burn it up.
Electric clothes dryer? They chew up power like crazy too.
[I am a retired Accountant (can't you tell) and I would love to do the math on that bill]

I have a meter that I bought from Bunnings that transmits the usage real time. It is good to have that to see when your usage spikes. I think it is called a "Cent-o-meter"

I check the outside meter readings to the bill, to the previous bill and to my "Cent-o-meter" readings. We try to do as much off peak as possible (washing, dishwashing, battery recharging). I agree, there is only so much you can do. But being aware of what is using the power is a start.

Regards
Allan

[FlashDrive]

Adrian ... $800 + :eyepop: I'd be getting an electrician in to check the ' Meters ' ... as you say ... no aircon or heaters. What more can I do?. Something is really wrong here .. I take it you only have 1 TV ( I know people who have 2 or more )... and your using low wattage energy light bulbs I take it... which is a good step.

I do know that ' electric hot water systems ' have the highest ' tarriff ' ... that's from first hand knowledge. When I still had mine ... even when I had the Solar Panels on the roof ... the very next power bill showed I still had to pay $90.00 for 3 months power usage .... $70.00 of that was for hot water heating.... got rid of the electric system ... put in a solar system ... next power bill ... $144.50 in credit.... nothing to pay... got another power bill just recently ( 3 day's ago ) ... now $213.47 in credit.

Don't use clothes dryers ( only if you really have to .. eg .. raining etc )..they ' gobble ' power also.

Turn everything ' off ' at the wall .. when not in use... including TV's .. Microwaves.. Computers ( don't turn the Modem/Router off .. if it is a 'stand alone ' unit )... any unnecessary lights .. yes.. and even the 2nd fridge ( if you can go without it )... trim everything up to the ' bare ' necessity .

Now .. one other matter I have heard and was reported on National Television ... Where you live and depending on your Post Code ... some areas are ' paying ' more for their power than other Post Codes.
If this is true ... that stinks :mad2: ( discrimination ).

It might not be as easy for you Adrian .. it appears by what you have written you are ' renting ' .

In closing .... ANYTHING LEFT ON ' STANDBY ' will still consume power ...TURN IT OFF completely.

Food for thought Adrian ..!!

Hope it get's a whole lot better for you ... Flash :hi:

[GrampianStars]

NO SHORTFALL possible!
That's what the immigration intake is for,
as well as annually over 50,000 new residents in Victoria alone..... :lol:

[multiweb]

At $800.00 a quarter that'd be around 20kWh per day. Do you leave computers on? Kids? A desktop will chew 2kWh in 4h easy. Use your laptop if you can. Check your fridge/freezer as well. I assume you'd have all your lighting changed to LED already?

[Ric]

I'm looking into a grid feed wind turbine for our property at the moment.

It's a 2.4KW system which requires as little as 4kph to start up and as long as the wind is blowing it's feeding the grid day and night.

Our local council is a bit slow, I wanted to get some info out of them and they kept on referencing windmills. :screwy: I must have told them 10 times "It's a wind turbine" :doh:

[casstony]

I don't think we'll have to wonder for too much longer - they can only build real estate that nobody can afford for so long, then the 'miracle' will disappear from our economy. At least then we'll be forced to stop using up natural resources for no constructive purpose.

Also Clive, we've been set up for a fall by successive governments; first home buyers grants and loans on easy terms from banks pushed house prices to double their long term historical worth. Once Australia joins the reality of the rest of the world that housing debt will be an enormous burden.

[multiweb]

That's an idea. I wonder if it would be possible to mod or manufacture all those roof wheelies heat extractors to feed the grid. There are sh||t loads of them everywhere both in industrial areas and residential. There must be power in numbers. :)

[Omaroo]

My tip? Everyone on the internet has access to electronic banking through the institution they're with. Pay your electricity and gas bills weekly via BPay as a periodic payment. Divide up an average year by 52 and pay that each week. Tiny amount - no surprises or major headaches at bill time. My last bill when it arrived was $68 - an easy to fix shortfall.

I do this too for all my major bills including rates on two properties - at tens of dollars per week and that's plenty.

[casstony]

Rather than use tax payers money to subsidise current solar installations, I'd prefer the govt to be fast tracking development of the newer technology panels which are cheaper to produce - then let homeowners buy solar installations just because it makes sense, not because the govt is handing out money again. Of course if they wanted to subsidise something worthwhile like telescopes and eyepieces under the guise of promoting science, well, that would be ok.

[multiweb]

I think part of the current price rise is because we all have a contractual obligation to pay people who got in the game early and got a buy back rate greater than the current 20c/Kwh or there about. Any rate between 60c and 20c was unsustainable and as Kev said earlier the money has to come from somewhere which is everyone. It was a mistake in the first place to set a buy back rate greater than the actual cost.

In the long run when the technology comes down in price everything will eventually level out I guess.

[Allan_L]

The Power Generators (where I worked for 20 years) only produce to demand.
The Power Distributors only purchase what was used by their customers.

There is no "Shortfall".

If you have Solar Panels, and you give out what you put back, then there should be no "cost that has to be made up by the rest of the customers".

My panels produce mostly during peak time, when I am being charged 46c per KwHr. (Soon to be increased by 18% from July). I agree it should have been fixed to the Peak Rate. But it is fixed and I expect the Peak rate to exceed 60c shortly (carbon tax + new infrastructure charges).

The Hype and the Distributors crying Poor Mouth is due to an "opportunity cost". The fact they can buy from the grid at a much lower figure than they are forced to "buy" from us is irrelevant. The fact is they don't have to buy from the grid what they sell to me, so the comparison should be between what they charge me for my own power, compared to what they pay me for it.

Thats my opinion anyway, and my credentials for my opinion are that I am a Chartered Accountant (who worked for the Electricity Commission).

[alan meehan]

Ipod,Iphone,mp3,Wiifi ,nintendo,xbox,playstation,blueray, dvd,foxtel,kindle,sony reader,android,boombox,laptops,comp uters,printers,mobile phones,Tbox,photo frames,digital phones,digital cameras,electric toothbrush,hair dryers,hair curlers hair straightners,cloths dryer,dishwasher,microwave,touch lamps,plasma led tvs,digital clock,recharchargale drill ,screwdriver,not to mention christmas ,my house is a robot chewing away at the meter box ,oh St!*ff ive blown a fuse:atom:
AL

[FlashDrive]

You forget the ' Toaster ' :rofl:

Flash :D

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris



This is a good idea in one way and a bad one in others.
Whilst it may help to smooth out some bills, it also further removes peoples perceptions of how much things really cost,
and you normally still end up paying the same amount in the end.
Modern financial methods love using lots of small transactions to cover up the real costs of things.
If you took the money out of the bank as cash each month,
( i know, not feasible anymore )
and paid the bills by handing over "real money"
it would hit home a lot faster whats really going on.

Andrew

[multiweb]

Fair enough I based my calculation on the single rate which I am on around 21c-24c anytime. In a way I am lucky our network hasn't been upgraded yet to smart meters because as I'm working from home and account for 50% of my daily consumption a jump from 20c to 40c and over wouldn't be ideal.

[multiweb]

Even better do a direct transfer to a higher interest account just for bills and bulk pay on the due date.

[michaellxv]

and coming soon 'the electric car', now aint that going to be cheap to run :lol:

[Larryp]

I'd like to see the proceeds of the accursed carbon tax used to make it easy for most of the population to install solar-then we could at least say the carbon tax was actually reducing CO2 output! When you install solar now, you are credited with Renewable Energy Certificates, which are usually assigned to the system provider to reduce the system cost to the purchaser-this scheme could be expanded financed by the carbon tax. Better than handing out a couple of hundred bucks which just gets spent willy-nilly.
I know solar can never provide base load, but it can sure reduce the cost of power.
Ten years ago, I lived in a large house with 3 bathrooms, ducted air, automatic everything and swimming pool. My bills back then were over $1000/ quarter. We had Energy Australia test the meters (at my cost), and of course they found nothing wrong-they never do!
Best thing I ever did was downsize to my current 1950s renovated box-everthing is so much cheaper.
I shudder to think what the new owners of my previous house are paying.

[traveller]

Hate to burst our bubbles, but Aust used to have the best PV brains in the business. He ended up going back to China because of lack of Govt support (or is that resistance from vested interest :confused2:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Zhengrong
End result: we now buy solar panels made in China from a guy who became an Aust citizen and studied here :screwy:

As for solar baseload power, there are operational sites in Spain using molten salt technology as heat sinks for extended generation (upto 7.5 hours without direct sunshine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andasol_Solar_Power_Station

Yes I know it's all Wiki stuff, but the point is Govt can take a longer vision and invest in smart technologies, which will have huge export potentials, but are too busy digging stuff out of the groud to notice. :shrug::screwy::rolleyes:

[TrevorW]

Yes I know it's all Wiki stuff, but the point is Govt can take a longer vision and invest in smart technologies, which will have huge export potentials, but are too busy digging stuff out of the groud to notice. :shrug::screwy::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


To busy making lots and lots $$$$$$ to notice more likely :thumbsup:

[marki]

This will probably cause a ruckus but so be it. I do not believe there is an easy answer to any of this. Sure its fun to slag off at the polies, hell I consider it a national sport, but to blame governments of any flavour as being responsible for the brain drain is fairly short sighted. They would be foolish to ignor the sheer volume of cash and its out flow into Australian society available from mining and other primary industries. How much and how long would it take to aquire the same impact from new technologies? Sure selling ore over seas is an easy option but I ask how many of us (myself included) are willing to or have personally invested our own money in supporting or developement of new technologies and I don't mean as an end user, a few maybe and probably got burnt in the process. We have all read about new and wonderful inventions made by Australians over the years of which the inventor in frustraion sold to overseas concerns due to lack of local support. We have watched our manufactruring industries die as we consumed mass produced goods sold by local retailers sourced from other countries simply because it was cheaper to buy. We have allowed and by our own actions ecouraged the death of real skill, inventiveness and even genius, hell we used to make our own aircraft during WWII, we even had foundries in Perth, all gone. Textiles gone, all but the essential metal working industries gone, woodworking on it way out etc etc. We have pursued personal wealth through real estate which is now so costly I fear for the plight our children will find themselves in. In Perth housing is in such shortage people are paying stupid prices to own or rent property here. How have electricity prices, food prices and the geneneral cost of living got so high? We might like to blame governments but in my opinion it is our own fault. We have become a society driven by our own greed in the pursuit of personal wealth even at the cost of the future of this great nation. We have too much yet we want more. We have squashed creativeness and as a consequence encouraged monopolies which now dictate terms. When something goes wrong we blame the governments almost as if they were negligent parents. For all intents and purposes we have shat in our own nest and are now complaining because we don't like the stench and expect someone else to come and clean it up for us. Well its time to wake up, smell the coffee and really consider what we (myself included) can do to make Australia a better place.

Mark

[Larryp]

You make some good arguments Mark

[Omaroo]

Uhm... yes. Obviously ;) My intent is not to hide it or pretend it doesn't exist. My intent is not to be hit with large sums of money all at once - having to be paid when it isn't convenient. I'm recently divorced, and my idiot ex wife lumped all of our mortgages and personal loans back on me to pay, choosing instead to skip her responsibilities and have me maintain our combined stellar credit rating. Where I used to be able to take a weeks wages and pay the electricity and rates off in one hit with that weeks earnings - along with the mortgages, food and every other thing that week including buying yet another telescope, it's not an option any more. The good old days have gone for the perceivable future. I'm not on low wages by any stretch of the imagination, but I have massive outgoings until our marriage is eventually settled - which is proving a nightmare. Paying in small allotments makes it far more manageable and easier to swallow.

Even after everything is finalised, I'll be continuing this practise. I think it works for many other people who don't, for their own multitude of reasons, have much left over each week after paying their mortgage, rent, food and travel expenses. It's difficult to come up with three and four figure sums to pay (sometimes highly) variable utility bills. As far as putting this into an interest-bearing account and paying from that, yeah, maybe. For the length of time the funds accumulate before they have to go again, the effort it isn't worth the measly interest. At least by paying small chunks as a periodic payment each week you can't forget to pay the bill on time either.

[Stu Ward]

This is way really agrieves me.
We live in rented accomoadation, beautiful house, but insulation is non-existent.
So in winter time I have no option but to heat the buggery out of the place. Our only option is electical heaters, and these are very inefficient and expensive


Stu

[cometcatcher]

I think that's why it isn't happening. Imagine if 20 million Australians suddenly started driving electric (not hybrid) cars. The power grid couldn't handle it. Not by a long shot. We would need to find a powerful source of cheap electricity to make it viable. Like nuclear. Home solar doesn't produce enough power to charge an electric car.

Now with high density housing and no yard to speak of, solar is limited to the roof. While the price of solar has plummeted, the efficiency of the panels hasn't changed that much in recent times. With solar you can't have tree shadows so not suitable for everyone.

I've managed to cram about 700 watts of self funded hobby solar panels on my shed roof which charge a battery bank. And I have a huge backyard. Where possible I've converted my energy use to either 12 volts or low power appliances. All the house lighting is 12 volt, fridge, freezer, TV, radios, ceiling fan, all 12V now.

I don't feed anything back to the grid. Too much red tape for a DIY. Because I use less grid power, my last quarter bill was $83. Unlike grid connect systems, when the grid goes down, I still have power.

Of course it cost money to do all this, so my savings are not so great. I just do it as a hobby for independence from the grid if needs be.

It seems a bit screwy to me that in the 21st century, a first world country that claims to be at the forefront of technology can't even afford electricity. :screwy: If we can't afford electricity, how are we ever going to advance with technology?

[mplanet62]

On positive side - it will be darker at night. Practical advice - buy a simple non-electric tea kettle. Will save you a lot - except it won't save my attitude towards electrical companies...

[jjjnettie]

I was about to report you as a spam bot!!!

[Colin_Fraser]

The Victorian government just slashed 300 million dollars off the TAFE funding and as a result 1000 jobs will go. So the government IS responsible.
Manufactures chose to close factories and move off shore, not to compete but to increase profits. The consumer HAS NO CHOICE. We have to buy these goods or go without. What actions? It is the large companies that have reduced apprenticeships to record low in favour of importing cheap Chinese labour.
Nothing wrong in wanting to own your own home to raise a family.Two young people meet and fall in love, get married and have a child. They rent while saving for a deposit for a home. Husband looks to future and puts away an extra $10 a week to his super fund then loses the lot. Rent goes up because there is a housing shortage. Fuel costs increase cutting into budget. They now have to reduce spending. Child gets ill and goes to doctor who no longer bulk bills, more expense. This family has no control over the cost of living nor did they contribute to it. Well they are to blame. They have created this situation through poor policies and looking after the interests of multinational companies.

[blindman]

Better to unite and make protests instead of wasting time commenting.
Country with the most coal resources and "they" are making fools of "their" Citizens. Right?
Cheers all.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris

I think that for many now, esp the younger generations,
its NOT obvious, ( which was the intent of my post )
and thats where a lot of people miss out on whats really happening.
( Ie the thread started about the ever increasing rate of price rises,
more than finding means to ease the load of paying for them )

You obviously watch carefully what goes on ( as do i )
but for many, the disconnect between money and cost when
"ongoings" get broken down into "little sums that are taken
automatically" means they dont see what is going on until its too late.

What i'm waiting for next in Victoria is the govt allows the owners of smart meters to dynamically change the tariffs "whenever they like".
( And just to be a bit Machiavellian, they will probably force you to link a meter to a bank account with direct debiting or suffer a penalty percentage )
Its blocked at present, but its sure to come in.
It will make the old "coin in the slot" electricity look tame.
I saw a debate on it about 6mths ago, and the weasel sent in by the supplier groups said you could "buy a device" to put inside your house that allowed you to see what your current tarriff is.

Andrew

in the state where the top three growth industries are now
a) State fines
b) Private fines
c) Creating scripts for Death insurance adverts:lol:

[Allan_L]

Putting this back on topic:
Increases in electricity Prices

YES. Electricity Prices have increased significantly in recent years.

Who is mainly responsible:
State Governments (Privitisation, or preparation for privatisation)

Secondary Cause:
Increase in cost of coal due to huge demands for coal from export markets.
(check the number of ships waiting off Newcastle harbour)

Was there any Federal Government cause:
No, not directly. Not until 1 July 2012.

What about Consumers' responsibility:
Well, Yes, some. Increasing our power usage requires further infrastructure investment.

What can we do about it:
Not much.
Reduce usage when we can, especially during Peak Load periods.
Switch to cheaper fuel alternatives. Gas cook tops. Solar hot water. etc.

any more questions?

[Colin_Fraser]

100% agree.

Tasmania have 87% hydro and wind power and a backup of 13% via Basslink to Vic.
Tassie retailers charge 89.1c/day as opposed to Vic's 65c/day
Price per kWh: Tassie 25.1c/kWh Vic: 23c/kWh
So in my view, the price of coal has little to do with it. More like greed.
So the question "why do electricity retailers continually increase the price?"
The only answer is "because they can and there's nothing you can do about it"

EDIT: and if you are lucky to live in Canberra where the federal politicians are, electricity retailers only charge 15c/kWh

[marki]

Before the industrial revolution, families would take responsibility for all their needs, housing, food, clothing, even in the 18 and early 1900's. When we all went to work for others we lost our independence and now you see the result.



Mark

[Colin_Fraser]

Thanks Mark. Now I understand.
The high, ever-increasing electricity prices is because after the industrial revolution 160 years ago people went out and got a job :confused2:
Makes perfect sense :rolleyes:

[marki]

So glad you understand why you feel so at the mercy of others :lol:

Mark

[AndrewJ]

Gday Mark



Whilst i understand a lot of your discussion and counterpoints,
i would add that in many ways, the lower echelons of society
have no means to bypass a lot of the problems,
and are at the mercy of others.
Ie Taking capitalism and Caveat Emptor to an extreme,
Why cant we import ( on say a fly in fly out scheme :lol:)
doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, politicians?????
Sure there is an inherent risk involved with using a cheaper
but competitive service, but if you cant afford a roller,
why cant you buy a bomb and take chance???
Ie when it comes to the the more menial jobs and pay,
nothing is sacred and Overseas competition is a fact of life now,
ie manufacturers are happy/forced to export the jobs of those who are now "too expensive" to retain.
why cant this be reversed and the peasants now be allowed to "import" cheaper professional services?????

Andrew

PS I dont know the answer, but the gap is widening fast

[Larryp]

Andrew, the concept of importing doctors, dentists, lawyers etc is totally impractical because of different educational standards. would you want some third rate doctor/ dentist treating you? I think not!-you would want someone whom you trusted to have the necessary skill and knowhow to take care of you. And as for lawyers, the law where they would come from may be significantly different to here so they would not function well here without signicant training in our law-more expense.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Laurie



No, but i dont personally "assume" that because someone is "from overseas" that they are "third rate".
Many are probably better trained and more up to date than some practitioners in Oz.

All i'm saying is its up to the purchaser what they are allowed to buy.
If you cant afford $1000/hr for a specialist who can do everything
and has everything that goes beep and bing
but can afford $100/hr for someone who can fix your specific problem,
then why not????
I dont need a "worlds best practice" dental practitioner
to give my teeth a scrape every now and then.



So what?? Are you saying they cant learn the requirements for a foreign country??? I mean we always learn how other countries operate before we deal with them.
Its not that hard for 90% of the business that gets done.
On top of that, the clots we have working here dont know
how it works anyway. Its always a "lets go to court and sort it out" exercise. Both lawyers get paid but one always loses:question:

Andrew

[Larryp]

Andrew, I am a health care professional, and I can assure you that our doctors and dentists are among the worlds most highly qualified. Most doctors/dentists who come here have to undergo further training and sit for examinations before being allowed to practice.
For my part I spent 5 years at university gaining my qualification, and continuing education every year of practise after that, so I am very up-to-date with the latest developments, as are my colleagues.
From your comments, I assume you do not have much respect for professionals.
As for lawyers, I would prefer to use one familiar with local law. Do you want your divorce or whatever handled by someone unfamiliar with local requirements?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Laurie



I have the utmost respect for our medical professionals ( less for some of the law based ones )
All i am trying to point out is if you cant afford it,
its a pointless exercise to discuss the qualifications.
I would refer the recent debate on why dentistry isnt covered by medicare. I personally didnt realise how many people put off dental work to the point of getting so sick that they were hospitalised
as emergency cases.
I also didnt realise how many people now go on "dental/medical" holidays
to hospitals in SE asia ( with Aust/GreatBritain/US trained personnel ).
Simple reason, cost differential.

In a country as rich as ours (supposedly is),
i find that a bit alarming.

Andrew

[Larryp]

Hi Andrew
Dentistry is covered by Medicare for people with medical conditions which their doctor feels would be improved by better dental health. Doctor gives them a form to take to the nominated dentist, who then carries out necessary treatment.
This was an initiative of the previous federal govt., and the current mob have been trying to get rid of it since their election.
Suggest you research the draconian treatment of dentists using this scheme by Medicare-some have been financially ruined through simple errors in paperwork.
Aust. Dental Assoc. is trying to get this scheme replaced by something targetted toward the more needy of our society.
Anyway, I think we are getting way off topic with this discussion.
Have to agree with you about lawyers, though.

[supernova1965]

The current government in partenership with the greens is trying to introduce Denticare but the opposition is for it but won't commit to back it if they win government

http://greensmps.org.au/denticare

[AndrewJ]

Gday Laurie



I heard about that one, but i believe the govt is looking
at retrospectively fixing the simple errors.
Its not the first time a Govt dept has destroyed peoples lives on a bit of paperwork.

( and now with tongue firmly in cheek )
Perhaps the dentists should have hired good accountants to do the paperwork, as then, when it all turned to custard, they could have got some lawyers to sue the accountants.:D

Andrew

hmmm, i see i have just got my gas bill in the post.
Wonder how that has changed :question:

[Larryp]

Hi Andrew
The paperwork was nothing to do with accounting. The requirement is that the dentist send a report to the referring doctor and give the patient a written quote BEFORE starting treatment. Difficult to do if the patient is in pain! Why the patient required a quote when they mostly weren't paying (bulk bill) is beyond me. If this was not done religiously, the penalty involved refunding to Medicare ALL the fees paid.
Trouble is, the scheme was devised by bureaucrats with no consideration for the daily workings of private practice medicine/dentistry.
No doubt if a new scheme is instituted, the professions will want to consulted to come up with something workable.

[AdrianF]

I have done an audit of what we have running during a "normal" day (6am to 6pm)
2 1200lpm fish tank filters and we leave the microwave running for the clock. Hot water heater is not off peak. I have requested to have it on off peak. It because we don't own the place we have to get owners consent, so far no no replies to email requests.

Adrian

[Tandum]

Our latest bill is down from around $900 to well under $600. The boy child moved out 3 months ago ;)

In late news, the QLD government has just reduced feed in tariffs for solar systems from 44c to 8c :sadeyes:

[overlord]

Is that electricity AND gas?

My lectricity bill went from 150 in summer to over 350! :eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::ey epop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepo p::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop:: eyepop:

[GrampianStars]

All this useless posting about $$$ spent :rolleyes:
It should be about kWh usage per day
for me currently 10.41 kWh
last bill $178
run fridge computer,projector,scope,heating,li ghts,oven, etc
WHERE are your high usages coming from :question:

[cometcatcher]

They really DON'T want people to install new solar systems do they. How nice of them to only pay 1/3rd of what they charge us. That will kill the install business dead. A system could never pay for itself.

[TrevorW]

In the US many energy providers do a 1:1 rebate and don't require you to have a smart meter installed, electro mechanical meters that run in reverse when more power than consumed is produced, suffice.

In England when electricity production was privatised electro mechanical meters where banned and smart meters became mandatory. The REBS scheme in the UK was slammed in Partliament as a fiasco.

With the introduction of the REBS scheme in Australia when rebates were being offered higher than retail electricity prices Smart meters are a necessity for you to receive those rebates.

Under the Federal Govt renewable energy buyback scheme how like in WA can Qld power consider that 8c is fair and reasonable and still try and force (which I don't think they can legally do) a smart meter onto users and charge you for it. A debate I'm presently having with the Minister and Synergy in WA at the moment.

It's just another indication how FUPD the REBS system is, how Govt's have no idea what they are doing when they involve themself in these schemes to bolster industry and the economy.

If you have a look at the Energy Matters site check out the disparity in schemes across Australia.

Now isn't it typical the Federal Govt introduces the carbon tax then reduces the subsidies for PV systems.

The only way for the PV industry to survive is for Federal/State Govt/Energy suppliers to renegotiate existing rebate schemes so that everyone is treated fair and equitably. Without this and more realistic pricing of PV systems, then the industry will die IMO.

A country with more sunlight hours than most other in the world and with a Govt sprouting the virture of a Carbon tax to reduce Co2 emissions, we should be a the forefront of renewable energy but we are not.

The only way to change this is at the poll, but I'm stumped as to whom to choose as the lesser evil.

[GrampianStars]

Ha? doesn't figure.... :shrug:
A 3Kw PV system costs about $6.5K to install, current BUY cost around 22c per kWh
Generates around 13kWh a day....
saving around $1040 per year on current prices
payback is 4.2 yeas without a buyback scheme from energy companies.
Saving $6018 in bills over 4 years if you include annual 20% increase in power costs.
Saving around $34,700 in bills over the first 10 years alone
Anyone want a new mount or scope :thumbsup:

[TrevorW]

20 kwh a day translates to $1.60 per day at 8c a kwh so how did you work out $1200 per year

in WA my 1.5 kwh system produces an average of 6.6 kwh per day at 7c per kwh I save 46.2 per day

http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/Average-Daily-Production-of-Renewable-Energy.jpg

[cometcatcher]

3kw of panels may produce 20 kw/h per day on the planet Mercury, not so much here on Earth. :P

It averages 4kw/h per 1kw of panels giving 3kw of panels an average of 12kw/h per day. That's 96c per day, or $350 per year giving a payback time of 20 years. Then the system is dead. No payback sorry.

[GrampianStars]

Love to know where your buying power at 0.08c a kWh ? Nowhere....

I was conservative with the buying cost around 16.5c per kWh
Most people are NOW buying power at 25c-30c per kWh

Based on my figures you saved around $301 in power bills for the first year
going forward including power cost rises and inflation over 10 years you will have saved around $10,015 in power bills :thumbsup:

[TrevorW]

Energy we produce now in WA via a PV is purchased from us by Synergy at 7c a kwh they then sell it back to us at 20c a KWH

REB schemes in some states have now been considerably reduced

people installing a new PV system at least in this state no longer receive 47 or 27c per kwh for energy they produce

http://www.energymatters.com.au/government-rebates/feedintariff.php

Example

My last energy bill

RE Renewable Energy
*60.0000 units @ 7.000000 cents per unit $ 4.20CR
HOME PLAN (A1) TARIFF
754.0000 units @ 19.878500 cents per unit $ 149.88

As to why the REBS scheme is a fiasco

"It has been reported that NSW households could pay an extra $600 on their electricity bill over six years to cover the $2 billion cost of the failure of the state government's over-generous tariff scheme. The total cost to families in some regional areas could be $1000"

[GrampianStars]

Go get SOLAR now Victorians and have your system payed off in short time.
http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3218
In 5years (2017) Us Vic's will be on the Horrible WA 0.07c per kWh model as TrevorW has. Urghhhh.... :mad2:

[TrevorW]

and for those interested in the tax rulings


The Australian Tax Office [ATO] has released its findings regarding the treatment of income generated from selling electricity back to the grid.

In short, the finding was very favorable for projects installed on a principal residence as the credits or payments will not be classified as assessable income for tax purposes. This ruling makes going solar all the more attractive, especially for the larger 10kw investment style projects. Below are the three key rulings taken from the ATO website.
Ruling
1. Are the credits or payments you receive for power generated by solar panels on your residence, assessable for income tax?
Answer: No.
2. Are you entitled to either an outright deduction or a decline in value deduction for the cost of the solar panels?
Answer: No.
3. Are you entitled to any deductions in relation to funds borrowed in order to purchase the solar panels?
Answer: No.
Whilst you cannot depreciate the asset nor claim a tax deduction for the interest on any borrowed money, the solar installation will add value to your home and becomes a great selling point upon the resale of the property. This will become especially relevant if the government proceeds with attaching an energy rating to each residential home.
The link below refers to the ATO tax ruling regarding income from solar panels:
(Update 17 Oct 2011: The document originally linked to in this article is no longer available on the ATO website. Private rulings similar to the original can be found here (http://www.see-change.org.au/node/106) and here (http://www.renovateforum.com/attachments/f223/79243d1276344430-anyone-know-about-solar-panels-ato-tax-ruling-pv-solar-feed-tariff-income.pdf).)
The above ruling will not apply for non-primary residences such as investment properties or businesses. Furthermore, if you are registered for GST purposes and make the installation with the intention of furthering business enterprise, then GST will be applied to any income generated.

[clive milne]

Liberals would be last choice,
Nationals second last,
Labour third last... not there is much to choose between them.

None of the above is the correct answer.

[strongmanmike]

What a mixed up old thread this is.....

Part winging, part pontificating, part hollow care about the need for renewable energy, part talk back radio cheap shot rubbish...quite funny to read :lol:

[Exfso]

Amazing how this has gone to hell and back, all I was complaining about was the outlandish increase placed on consumers here in SA from the 1st of July. I believe other states have varying increases as well. Before the rise I am paying between 27.5 and 32 c/kwh depending on my useage per quarter, this is the winter rate and in summer it jumps a couple of cents/kwh. When you add the nearly 20% increase those prices per kwh become ridiculous. I heard the state premier here questioned on the news tonight on why SA is the most expensive place in the world, yep, the WORLD for electricity pricing, his reply, you guessed it, he blamed the opposition and the fact that SA was privatised when the opposition were in power.

[strongmanmike]

Oh by all means change the government, like some in this thread think is the panacea for everything, state and/or federal, and watch the prices continue to go up :thumbsup: electricity costs what it does because you will pay it, it's a business now like banking, simple, no conservative government is going to change anything about that.

Mike

[TrevorW]

In WA you are not allowed to keep your existing electro mechanically meter after you have a PV system installed even though it will run quite happily and not interfere with existing power supply system.

In the US

Net Metering— In more than 35 states, customers who own PV systems can benefit from laws and regulations that require “net” electric meter reading. The customer is billed for the net electricity purchased from the utility over the entire billing period—that is, the difference between the electricity coming from the power grid and the electricity generated by the PV system. Through net metering, the customer obtains the full retail electricity rate—rather than the much lower wholesale rate—for kilowatt-hours of PV-produced electricity sent to the utility power grid.

This same generousity is not available in Australia at least in WA nor other states as far as I am aware. When the REBS schemes where offerred you weren't given this option. You are made to have a smart meter installed at your cost so that the Electricity Utility could monitor production and consumption.

With the cancelling of the rebate schemes in WA they now only have to pay you the lesser wholesale rate of 7c kwh yet force you to instal a smart meter if you decide to have a PV system.

Now in my opinion that is illegal and blantant theivery- how are they being fair and and reasonable as required under the Federal Renewable Energy agreements.

At least in WA we now have a Labour shadow minister that has a good chance of winning the next State election and hopefully may change things, who knows.:question:

[Exfso]

I think a lot of people here are missing the point:rolleyes: How can the prices keep climbing like they are, electricity, like it or not is an essential service. People who are on the bones of their bum cannot afford it now without having these huge price hikes. Where will it end, open revolt could happen, it would probably happen in other countries that are copping this sort of gouging! Seriously though, people are defaulting on their electricity bills in huge numbers and this is increasing at a huge rate even before these outlandish rises. It really has got totally out of hand and something serious has to be done or we are have a good chance of going down the gurglar.

[jenchris]

If KWH charges are 50c a KWH, it might be cheaper to use your own generator during that period. I have a live aboard boat(as well as my home) with a bank of deep cycle batteries - 410amp/hr is enough to run economically with less than 50% discharge per day. OK so that is pretty frugal, as it only works out to 2 1/2 kw/hrs. If you run the charger/inverter during the day for 4 hrs you are sweet.
But in a home, you could do that with 14 panels and some batteries and the inverter.

That means total disconnection from the mains - they don't like it, but they are obliged to do it if you request it.

[TrevorW]

Jennifer is right

When debating the legality of the enforcement of a smart meter with Synergy, they said I could apply to be islanded ie: disconnected from the energy supplier altogether (I would still have to apply)

It was just another scare tactic IMO as they had already installed the smart meter and the cost of setting up sufficient storage batteries etc would be prohibitive in my case

Mind you I wouldn't be surpised when alternative energy options and battery storage/life improves sufficiently that this doesn't become a common practice.

[AndrewJ]

Discussing the legality of the rises is probably moot,
as the Govt ( whichever one is in ) will just legislate to cover it.
If they want/need money, they will find a way,
be it electricity rises, paying for desal water we arent getting,
or whatever else is going on we havent heard about yet.
I ( tongue in cheek) appended this to an earlier post
This morning on the radio ( ABC not ratbag shock jocks )
they were discussing the new "indexed" fines,
most up 12.5%, but there were some new beauties in there as well.
Two in special were
double parking to drop off/pick up kids near schools
from ~$120 to ~$430
missing the reregistration of your boat ( $73 fee )
fine goes to ~$700
edit
finally found a summary for the boating enhancements
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2011/12/07/416961_latest-news.html

I know people say if you dont want fines, dont break the law,
but it appears ( our ) govt is depending on fines to keep us going.
( I liked the fact you can now be fined for not retrieving a fishing line )

If that is what we have to do whilst the country is in the best economic health it has ever been in, then its not going to stabilise any time soon,
and the only way to get cheaper electricity etc will be to pay massively more for it (somewhere).

Andrew

[midnight]

Coal fired power stations will generate electricity (sell to the market) from anywhere around $20-$50 per MWHr. The station I work at is around $37 / MWhr or about 4c per kWHr. So it would be interesting to compare other regular items like unleaded/diesel from wholsale to retail etc where we know electricity is generated at approx 4c (wholesale) & then retail at say 21 c (Synergy). Then one can gauge the % markup taking into account cost to produce, infrastructure etc.

As for smart meters, they meter net import and net export. Unless they have a dedicated second meter for the solar panel, the only difference between smart meter and a conventional induction type (for the purpose of this discussion) is that the smart meter will tally up the exported energy whereas the induction meter, you have no idea how much actually went out unless you read the meter all the time. Yes the disc will go backwards but it will move forward again as soon you consume more than generated. Smart meters can do all sorts of different tariffs etc etc but I won't go into that.

When you are "net importing" you are still getting the retail price (eg Synergy is 21.7 c/kWhr at A1 tariff) for energy produced that you consume. This is not much use for a household whose energy use is bulked around the shoulder periods (morning and night) when the sun is down too far and you're not home during peak solar generation to "use" the energy and benefit from the price. At 7c per kWHr in the example of a household using most energy at night, solar may not be economical and you are indeed getting a very raw deal from the distributor.

The other thing to consider is if you go off grid with solar, you may not be able to get the full capital subsidy. Remember to generate 3kWHrs via solar/batteries to avoid a premium period of approx 4hrs (eg 50 c/kWHr) you may need approx 5 x 100AHr deep cycles (to get a useful ~250AHr) at about $200 ea + about 1.5kW solar panels + inverter + MP charger and most likely no subsidy. This could run as higher or higher than $8500. At 50 c per kWHr, it would take you over 10yrs to pay it off. If you can get the subsidy then this price would be substantially lower. Most distributors do not like such systems connected to the grid as they are designed to stay energised when off grid and then you need change over switches & lock out devices to avoid back feeding a dead line.

I have my own ideas of why prices are going up but unfortunately, it is getting more complicated to work out the most economical product for each household.

Darrin...

[michaellxv]

Just got my electricity bill and comparing to the same period last year we have reduced our consumption by over 1/3rd. (31.51kWh/day down to 20.74kWh/day). All our electric heaters are still packed up in the shed this year :cold: we are only keeping one room warm with the gas heater. The actual bill only reduced by less than 1/4 :mad2:

[TrevorW]

I wonder what will happen as demand falls when(if) everyone becomes more energy conscious

[Colin_Fraser]

I checked a suppliers web site for price structure and sent them an email asking them to confirm the prices advertised.
The wrote back and said from July 1 the prices will rise...
From 22c/kWh to 26c/kWh (usage)
from 65c/day to 80c/day (service fee)
GST on top of that. Pretty hefty hike.

Last bill I used 1125kWh. Don't know how that compares with others.

[jenchris]

My service fee ATM is 26 cents a day - which is tolerable
I use 12.55Kw/H per day at 21cents.
I use gas for cooking and electricity for water heating (I'm a POM so that is a small charge lol)
Nearly all my lights are LED or miniflouro.

[Colin_Fraser]

Thats 1154kWh in 92 days
My home is electric cooking and solar/electric hws & I have a wood heater

[clive milne]

fwiw)
In Denmark you pay around 40c / kWh
Germany 34c
Spain 27c
Ireland 29c
Italy 29c
Sweden 27c
Belgium 29c
Brazil 34c
Guyana 27c
Netherlands 30c
Portugal 25c
Philippines 31c
Tonga 58c / kWh...

Feel better now?

[Stardrifter_WA]

I can't be bothered with solar, a little too "iffy" in my opinion, not enough efficiency in the panels, yet. Much more efficient panels are under development though. Solar is reliant on Government subsidies, and we all know where that will lead.....to zero subsidies and will just end up as a 1:1 ratio, so no actual cost/benefit. It has already cost Governments $550 million, I believe.

What about maintenance and efficiency drop off over the lifespan of the panels? This will happen over time, particular, if a single panel in the system fails and reduces efficiency in the system as a whole. Also, I understand that there is an obligation, on the householders part, to maintain efficiency of the system, otherwise, you may find that the engergy company could cancel any contract. I also believe that the contract is not necessarily transferable to a new owner, so there may be no real added value to the property in having a system installed, which is why I originally thought about installing a system. Apparently, it is all in the fine print.

However, for those that have gone down this road, producing extra power is only half the equation anyway, as reducing the "need' for energy is the other half of the equation, which is the way I am going.

I am changing "all" my house lights to LED's, which are very energy efficient, and replacing appliances with more energy efficient devices (most are due for replacement anyway), which will considerably lower my use of energy.

In addition to that I am changing my habits in the way I use (waist) energy. For instance, if there is nothing on television, instead of just sitting up and watching trash (which is what's on most of the time, or it's repeats), and leaving the heater on (wasting gas), I go curl up in my nice warm bed with a good book, at least, in winter. Got lots of astronomy books to get through anyway. Also, I no longer leave all the lights on, if I am not in the room, which I had a bad habit of doing. Furthermore, I leave nothing on standby and switch everything off at the wall.

So, having a solar system is only half the answer to reducing costs. Reducing the amount of energy used is just as important.:)

[AndrewJ]

Gday Clive

All well and good, but its only part of the equation.
What are the other "ongoing" costs in those places????
Ie, Looking at my last bill ( and i'm not a high volume user )
my peak rate was about 22.5C/kwh
but 1/3 of my bill is still supply charges ( ~90c per day incl gst )
When you ammortise that into the rates, it changes the results.
What would be really good is if we could get a true comparison
of how much it costs, "as a total cost including overheads"
for a roughly standard usage of a set amount of electricity.

Andrew

Also, after living in Nth Germany for a year, i gotta say,
the requirement for electricity was a lot less than here.
No real need for aircon in summer, and in winter, most heating came from hot water piped through a city wide network of pipes
from power stations/incinerators.

[jenchris]

I pay 23.3 cents per kilowatt hour overall including GST and supply charges. That figure is for this last quarter.
That's $2.92 a day (also this is my highest quarter (the other quarters are about 10% less usage))

[Exfso]

It certainly appears as though Queensland is very much cheaper per Kwh than SA, by a long shot. As I said we are hit with 27.158c/kwh for the 1st 1200kwh/yr then it climbs to 27.665c/kwh for the next 2800kwh/yr and up to 31.67c/kwh for the next 10000kwh/yr, on top of that is a $60 supply charge per quarter. As stated previously these are winter rates and in summer they are around 10% higher. As of the 1st of July one can add around 20% to these numbers followed by the carbon tax % on top of that. Not hard to see why SA is the most expensive electricity in the world.

[Allan_L]

I am in NSW:
My current Smart Meter rates:
Off Peak (10pm to 7am) = 10.56c
Shoulders = 18.04c
Peak (2pm to 8pm) = 44.66c
System availability Charge 59c/day = $56 this quarter
(and these rates will go up next week)

Current usage 1703kWh this quarter (no kids at home)

For the Same qtr in 1996 (one rate 10.15c) consumed 3395kWh (3 kids at home)

Oddly enough, Same dollar amount for both bills.

[supernova1965]

I know this thread is about Power bills but our last phone bill is $95 for line rental and only $75 for phone calls GO FIGURE:screwy: it costs us more to have the phone than it costs in calls we make:shrug:

[jenchris]

I seldom use the phone too, and my bill is 75% line rental.
My last top up for $20 on my mobile - expired after a year.

[TrevorW]

Thats the ludicrous thing it costs me $115 a month for mobile/home/internet access

This is another area we are being ripped off IMO compared to some countries