Just Released: Canon 60Da for Astrophotographers

[technofetishism]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/04/canons-eos-60da-shoots-for-the-stars

might be of interest to a few people here :)

and the canon press release
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon?pageKeyCode=pressreldet ail&docId=0901e0248051ddd1

[Craig_L]

Just saw that Nick. Thanks. Mentions advanced noise reduction - I assume over the 60D but maybe just on JPEGS and not RAW.

[technofetishism]

I just assume its the standard dark frame noise subtraction that they've had for ages.

[iceman]

Just got the release about this too.

[luigi]

It's a regular 60D without the IR filter. I wonder if the WB is compensated for normal time photography. It doesn't matter a lot anyway.

Welcomed new camera!

[technofetishism]

Sounds like IR cut is till there, just the cut point is deeper.

[loki78]

Canon realeased another model today (or the announcement was today at any rate) that is specifically tailored towards AP.

http://www.canon.com.au/About-Canon/News-Events/News-Press-Releases/Canons-new-EOS-60Da

Anyone know much more about it than that?

I for one didn't know it was coming, but I'm pretty slow with current news :)

[stardust steve]

Hi, i just caught news of this now via a mate. Here is the link he gave me, maybe it has different info...http://www.canonrumors.com/
Looks good, but i am wondering is it worth the $1500 or is it worth modding a 450d, 500d etc for cheaper?

[Danack]

Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/canon-announces-eos-60da-for-astrophotography/)




Something else to save up for maybe.

[cjpops]

Can't wait for the reviews to start coming in..

[jjjnettie]

Hmmmm, seems ok. Too rich for most though.
They are throwing in their overpriced "genuine" timer remote and AC power supply too.

[Octane]

Fantastic. :)

On ya, Canon.

H

[iceman]

I merged the other threads into this one.
It'll be a hot topic around the traps for a few days.

[gregbradley]

Awesome. I want one even though I use dedicated astro CCDs. It'd be great for Milky Way mosaics, night time lapse videos.

If its anything like the 20Da it isn't simply a different low pass filter. They tweaked other aspects of the 20Da which simply meant it produced the best DSLR images of any Canon camera in my opinion.

I am definitely getting this beasty. They will be hard to get, go out of stock fast and hold their resale reallly really well.

Who's a good Canon dealer in Sydney??


Also here is a link to the iphone app that can control time lapse on cameras:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1435018402/trigger-happy-camera-remote

How awesome is that eh?

Greg.

[rogerg]

Interesting.

For me the question would be 60Da vs 5D MK II. Vaguely comparable on price (second hand 5D MK II). Does the sensitivity of the 60Da outperform the excellent low noise performance of the 5D MK II I wonder.

[gregbradley]

Here is the link to this amazing app for the iphone that may be far better than your expensive Canon intervalvometer.

Plus look at the features the guy is planning: lightning trigger, movement trigger, ramping up exposure for time lapse. Man its got everything!

Greg.

[gregbradley]

You would really have to compare it to a 5D mark ii that has been modified. Any DSLR modified would outperform an non modified 5D mark ii.

Full frame would be nice though. You'd have to remove the filter and replace it with Edmunds Optical flat glass or Baader U/IR cut filter which is more astro friendly.

But if its like the 20Da the factory does more to the camera than that. It will probably have its own firmware that is tweaked.



Greg.

[rogerg]

Sure? I mean, the noise on the 5D MK II is so much more controlled than the 60D you could do significantly longer exposures for the same noise, right, so hence giving you greater sensitivity across the detected range. Yes there would be that portion of the spectrum that only the 60Da would capture but as an overall result of a wide field photo, I wonder how they would compare still.

[gregbradley]

Having modified several DSLRs my opinion is there would be no comparison. Modified DSLRs are about 3-4X more sensitive in Ha. So unless 5D mk11 was modded there would be no contest. Mind you full frame is a nice FOV.

Look at Alex's recent aurora time lapse. The darker more colourful red one was a modified Sony Nex 5 and the other non modded Nikon D700 which up until 5D mark iii and Nikon D800 was the king of low light cameras.

Greg.

[Danack]

Although the 5DmkII has better noise qualities per pixel, I'm not sure that it's going to be better per mm^2 of sensor.

i.e. even though the 60D would be noisier images - by the time you stack several frames together and then down sample them to the same resolution as a 5D has, it's not obvious which one would be 'better'.

[gregbradley]

That's true. Smaller pixels in 60D aren't they? I recently watching the Nikon D800 and 5d Mark iii debates on another forum it became clear downsizing a large mp image does give a sharpening and lowering of noise effect.

Smaller pixels are usually noisier (although Sony seems to have found a way to combat this) but have the advantage of downsizing to reduce noise. Not sure if that gets you ahead or back where you started though!

Greg.

[RobF]

Isn't it great for the hobby though that Canon has done this. Who would have thought. Things have moved on in CCD land a lot (functionality and price) since the 20a though. Be interesting to see how well they are accepted. Surely a limited run will sell, and Greg I'm sure you're correct about resale value.

[JB80]

I echo those sentiments Rob, I think it's great camera manufacturers are starting to hop back on board the astro market.
Although I do hope it won't be a limited run but I suspect you are probably right.
Even if I do think it's a little pricey.

[barx1963]

Na, don't need that! just get Martin to mod your new 5D Mk III with a rusty fork and a pen knife! :P

[leinad]

So it looks no diff than stock; with an N3 adapter you get get on ebay for $5, AC adapter and their filter.
*TC-80N3 Cable Remote Control (sold separately)

Curious how this performs over a stock body modified with Baader or Astrodon filter?

[luigi]

Performance is probably the same. With this one you get the Canon warranty.

I like the flip screen in the 60D, that's a huge help for astrophotography, I can frame, focus and see what I'm doing without breaking my back.

I think they made a crop body for astro because it helps increasing focal length and it prevents vignetting with the scopes. It makes a lot of sense.

The crop mode video mode is good for planetary/lunar work too.

I want one, but getting one in Argentina will be difficult! Will see...

[gregbradley]

The 20Da seemed to outperform regular modded cameras and also it worked as a daytime camera as well. It had a different firmware that seemed to reduce noise. I think there was something about the way the circuitry amplifiers cut in that reduced heat buildup in long exposures and reduced noise further. Like the amps were off until the exposure was complete compared to amp on as soon as shutter clicked in reg camera.

It also had a slightly different firmware.

It may also double as an excellent infrared camera.

I expect it to be a little bit better than what is generally expected here. The 20Da was the only DSLR camera that produced images approaching good dedicated CCD images.

Greg.

[Octane]

I think I might get one. :(

H

[AdamJL]

This is great! Looking forward to reviews.

[Star Hunter]

I got my Canon 40D modified for $400. It has a full spectrum filter (FSF) which varies from UV to IR and well into 1100Nm. 657.3Nm is Ha and this FSF beats ANY new toy. But, for those who want to get into AP, go for it, but a cooled CCD beats a DSLR sensor anytime.

[JB80]

At first I was excited by this news and while I think it's great Canon are doing this again and hope more follow I probably won't be rushing out to get one. I have little doubt it'd be a great camera but I'm not sure I can justify the price increase especially when I have other things to get this year.
Maybe I'll pluck up the courage to hack apart my 20D instead.

[Octane]

Things have come a long way since the 20Da in terms of sensor and high ISO characteristics.

Where you would be loathe to push past ISO-800 on the 40D, you can comfortably image at ISO-1600 on this newer camera, halving your exposure time.

In today's crappy weather, this is a windfall.

H

[JB80]

This is true, I completely understand that.
I'm just trying to be a bit realistic for once more than my usual impulsive self.

Normally the 'want' factor prevails over the 'need' factor, truth is I'm not getting the best out of what I already have so until that changes then I'll pass for now. Who knows, in 6 months time things may be different.

[Star Hunter]

Just how much is this new toy anyway? Modifying one's existing DSLR might be a better option then spending on another camera. At least you will have more options to adjust the WB and IR becomes a cinch.

[Octane]

Not much. $1,500.

Doing a self-modification does not entitle you to high ISO performance, nor sensor improvement gains.

H

[spacezebra]

Ive added this to my wishlist.

Cheers Petra d.

[gregbradley]

I don't know much about the 60D and love to hear reviews from those using one.

I have 20D (modded) and non modded 40D which I love.

My main use for it would be time lapse or Milky Way mosaic type shots where some extra Ha performance would be handy over my main non modded DSLR which will be Nikon D800 soon which should also be very good for night time lapse with its superb low light high ISO low noise performance. But as good as that is getting Ha to make those Milky Way images more colourful isn't going to happen with a non modded DSLR.

Greg.

[Star Hunter]

For $1500 bucks is not expensive really. Though it may have some nice features over the 20Da, it will be interesting to see what reviews come out. The 20Da did not last too long on the shelf. Perhaps Canon has seen the light and produced a camera that will serve a niche in the market place. I hope it does. Now if I can only convince the missus she needs a 60Da DSLR......

[lacad01]

Been interesting reading the various comments here as well as various web sites announcing the beastie. The appeal to me would be the low noise / high ISO combo. I think the flip out screen is a good idea to save the neck when mounted on a scope and as an aid for focussing. I'd also be curious as to whether the video function could render it in the class of devices like the GSTAR :question: , certainly seems to indicate that in some of the official blurb for the product.

[leinad]

I already own the 60D, and if this camera offers refined firmware I'd be very interested to heard about it. But so far it only sounds like a filter modified alternative with the same bells and whistles. From 350D, 40D, to 60D all high ISO's have some form of noise banding that's unavoidable unless cooled or operating at low temps in dark conditions.
So far theres absolutely no definitive example of sensor improvement gains or improvements besides the hype. For similar price a 5d markII is available 2nd hand,and $500 more brand new, with much better ISO performance and noise control, not to mention better for low light conditions (see the Lovejoy images! and timelapses we've seen recently). For scope mounting, heck, if you want CCD Ha benefits a QHY9 is pretty much in the same ball park now.

My 5c. Sorry but I don't see what all the hype is all about, but very well may be proven wrong when the professional reviews surface.
Maybe I already own a CCD, 60D for terrestrial photos; and can't reason for this the mid point at that price.

[Octane]

The 20Da did not last long on the shelves because it was a limited edition run. An executive in Canon was interested in astronomy and his influence helped create the product.

H

[Octane]

The other cameras you mentioned would need to be modified for hydrogen alpha response. So, while you could get a new or second hand 5D Mark II, you would still need to modify it, thereby ruining its daylight spectral response as well as autofocus system.

The camera is aimed specifically at astrophotographers. Particularly those who aren't interested in, or can't afford a CCD.

H

[leinad]

40D with UV/IR had no autofocus issue with custom white balance which I assume this camera will utilize; How does that differ from the 5D?

Modification Only if you endeavor for more Ha in photos; that's the sell point. So this filter doesn't ruin daylight spectral response? Have I missed something.

[Octane]

That's the thing, you can still use the 20Da and 60Da as a terrestrial camera. But, its strength over a non-modified camera is that it lets in enough hydrogen alpha to give you pleasing reds.

H

[luigi]

I don't think there's any difference between the 60dA and a modded 60d, the only difference would be to keep Canon's warranty. It's just taking a filter out and putting a new filter in.

For daytime photography you would need a light IR blocking filter on the lens to avoid IR filtration and color shifts.

I really think this is just a quick mod of a 60d by Canon, I will buy one anyway because my T2i needs an upgrade :)

[leinad]

Warranty is a minor comfort, they're so solid I haven't heard of too many failures that are expensive fixes; but you know you'll want full UV/IR modification in the end. :wink2:

[spacezebra]

Ive spoken to our local - and Im getting one :D

Cheers Petra d.

[luigi]

Congrats!
I have no local and I hope to be able to get one, crossing fingers!

[Bassnut]

It would be a killer for IR TL. With an 87C filter exposure times gat a bit silly on a regular cam, which doesn't matter much for single frames, but for IR TL (and the dramatic sky/cloud contrast it renders) the short exposures and hence high frame rate videos would make the 60a a standard of the shelf choice bar none.

[2stroke]

I've got 1100Da, nearly haha. It's great that canon is doing this, though it would be much more flexable to remove all Internal IR cut's and place them external. I know it would add cost, but lol $20 is nothing to the expense of modding and for camera's at the level of the 60D this sort of thing should be standard. Then again at least canon is putting thought into the small nich of market that astrophotography fills, its just a shame they charge more coin then is warranted to an off the self 60D. But hey its got 60Da on the box and camera for bling :)

[Danack]

Sample (not particularly good) images:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos60da/

[luigi]

If those are single shots they look very good to me!

[spacezebra]

There is discussion on cloudy nights worth having a look. Looks good so far and I like the tilt screen. 60d hutech mod about the same price. Interested in seeing comparisons between the two.

I'm a fan of live view and it was a toss up between a dedicated CCD and canon, and the timing of the release is good - suits my budget.


Cheers Petra d.

[obsidianphotos]

Congrats Petra. Can't wait to see what you can do with it.

[spacezebra]

Hi Greg

Not getting excited yet - until its in my hand, cant wait though!

Cloudynights suggest delivery June - but im waiting for the guys here in Albury to get back to me.

Cheers Petra d.

[Octane]

Petra,

Who did you order through, if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers.

H

[spacezebra]

I spoke to our local Camera Supplies, and they are following it up. I should know more after the Easter break.



Cheers Petra d.

[MrB]

Was gonna ask the same thing H, as I've been hitting brick walls.
Have one local store chasing it up for me, probably helped that I asked for a quote for two units ;)

Petra, you say CN suggests June delivery, yet Canon Aus. website (http://www.canon.com.au/About-Canon/News-Events/News-Press-Releases/Canons-new-EOS-60Da) says 19th April?
I could have sworn 3 days ago it said 16th April, so seems it has been bumped 3 days already lol.

[spacezebra]

Hi Simon

Even better mid April delivery! :D

Cheers Petra d.

[rogerg]

Locally, PRA have announced you can pre-order it.

[tornado33]

What would really interest me is a MONOCHROME sensor equipped Canon camera, I.E. a bog standard EOS DSLR without the colour bayer filter and with no IR cut filter at all. In theory it should be no dearer than a normal camera but its wishful thinking such a camera would be made I think.

Seeing as how the EOS sensors work as well as they do at room temeprature, a monochrome 18 MP cooled EOS camera would blow every dedicated astro camera out of the water as far as dark current noise went.

Then I once used the GRAS (now Itelescope) online scopes, the raw light frames still had some dark current noise, which was easy to subtract as they also sent me a master dark from darks at the same temperature. However when I borrowed Houghys cooled DSLR the noise, or rather lack of it even on the raw light frames was mind boggling. The only thing that stops them from cornering the astro camera market is they are colour not monochrome chips.

Look at what cooling (http://www.centralds.net/en/cds-1100d_dark_frame_comparison.htm) an EOS sensor does. That, in monochrome with accurate temperature control would be absolutely brilliant. You could do 1 hour subs with hardly any noise. Remember as a guide the Central DS 600d "only" cools to 28 deg below ambient yet returns stunningly dark darks that have to be heavily stretched to show noise.
Scott

[MrB]

Cheers Roger, looks like I might have to lift my decade long boycott of PRA.

[danielsun]

Dohh!! I only just ordered the 7D last week and had no idea they where releasing this Astro dedicated 60Da but think it's great that they have considered this side of Photography.
Looking forward to reading the reviews and am wondering if it is more than just removing the filter.

Cheers Daniel.

[trek1701]

Hi Daniel

If you only just ordered it, you should be able to change the order without any penalty.

Cheers Mark

[2stroke]

Will say the tests of this gens sensors are mind blowing, I think next gen even without cooling EOS cameras will give dedicated astro cameras one hell of a run while even un-cooled. Technology is catching up and it won't be long before it gets hard to justify the pricing of of astro cams. With hacked firmware like magic lantern http://http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki (http://http//magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki) , DIY filter modding and cooling its really putting out of reach dedicated astro cams into all peoples hands and its great :)
I've just done a 1100D filter mod myself and can't wait to play with some cooling :) Magic lantern is currently in development for 1100D support which will crack the iso limits right open on this baby :) Hmm will be waiting to see if canon has any firmware changes on the 60Da myself, though i think this will be doubtful, it could open up some a ton of firmware in the AP world. BTW that link to pre-modded cooled cameras is great bud :)

[spacezebra]

Getting excited :D

Cheers Petra d.

[g__day]

Should have looked in this forum first! From my read its an Astronomik IR filter. I've send many letters to Canon research for DSLRs over the past few years, refering them to Badder, Hutech and Astronomik IR filters. Slightly surprised they went the Astronomik route, I'll see if I can find out why.

The other idea I suggested was a user specified Liveview and Remote Live view settings for 1/10 sec up to 30 seconds. I think it was software locked to 3 frames per seconds, but there was no reason why a user couldn't verfiy this for hobby shots that required more signal from loner exposures. Wonder if Canon handled this?

Meanwhile just delighted this model has turned up!

[danielsun]

Bought it on the net. Checked with them on Thursday, payment has gone through and it's well on it's way but that's ok, still very happy with the features of the 7D:). Will wait and checkout the reviews of the 60Da and may end up also getting one down the track.:thumbsup:

Cheers Daniel.

[Terry B]

For astro imaging, why does a high ISO make any difference?
All it does is change the in camera amplification ie the gain of the CCD. This potentially reduces the dynamic range of your image. All astro photos should really be taken as RAW and amplified if needed afterwards anyway.

[wasyoungonce]

Jeezz...maybe a cooled spectrum modded camera from central DS is a better option.... 1100D or 600D (http://www.centralds.net/en/index.htm).:shrug:

Of course this in the price territory of an KAF 8300 OSC...although more pixels.

[2stroke]

Well there own in house Low pass filter does a better job then any IR cut in the digi 4's from my reading and first hand experience. It wouldn't surprise me if there just using a astronomik MC clear, as the LP is an IR cut and gives a better spectrum then any of these filters. If they have gone for astronomik it will be for price and being able to fill there demand. Anyhow this if from what I know and understand, I could be total wrong :)

Umm liveview vai EOS utils works fine here for my 1100D's on whatever is set it for, maybe you should try updating EOS utils from canon. From the camera try updating the firmware from canon, if not flash with magic lantern which I would have done when i got the thing, canons firmware is n00b locked :)

[g__day]

2Stroke - I don't have any Canon's with LiveView, I merely fired some questions to Canon Research (CiSRA) to ask if LiveView frame per second was alterable to make really long duration shots in low light - and was told no, it didn't go below 3 frames per second (user configurable). I explained how for astrophotography this option might be a boon when framing shots.

Are you saying there are utilities (Canon or 3rd party) that will allow you to determine how long each frame in Remote LiveView may be (and /or to up their gain / gamma)?

[CometGuy]

Hi Scott,

A monochrome option already exists - there are a number of Kodak 8300 CCD cameras available and now the Sony 694 Exview II sensors. I have seen some of these go for very good prices here on IIS.

Terry

[2stroke]

hmm think your right on that one just tinkering now and exposure is doing squat :/ Lol i've never noticed :shrug: , ill keep playing when i get a chance. I just up the iso to 400 when in live veiw.

[luigi]

The Signal to Noise ratio improves as you increase the ISO. This is because the sensor read noise is not amplified as the signal is.

So as long as the dynamic range is enough you should shoot at the highest possible ISO for a given exposure time.

For most DSLRs this stops making sense beyond ISO1600 but up to 1600 the higher the better.

[Terry B]

I would have thought that astro photos all have a very high dynamic range. The difference in brightness of stars compared to DSO objects is very high. As long as you are happy losing almost all of the colour data for stars then I suppose this is ok.
I'm also curious about the read noise.
When is the gain (or ISP amplification) applied?
I thought that the order was that each line of the ccd is read then the gain is applied. This would mean that the read noise is also affected by the gain.

[trek1701]

I’ve been told that you should use Liveview at least as possible (even though you need it to achieve actuate focus) because it increases noise, is this info correct???


Cheers Mark

[luigi]

The DSLRs use CMOS not CCD :)
You have a wonderful explanation here:
http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/#readnoise




This is true, live-view increases thermal noise. So I use it to focus, frame and then turn it off for the rest of the night.
After about 1 minute of live-view you need 8 minutes off for the sensor to be back at the temperature it started.

[mithrandir]

Not quite true Luigi. For example my Sony has a CCD, and other manufacturers use the same Sony chip.

[luigi]

Yup but we are talking about the 60d here.
My stellar was not very writing but the sensor CMOS 60da is a :D

[jamiep]

I'll be trying one anyway - it's been a long time between drinks since the 20Da, and may be a long time again depending on the popularity of this model.

I have a standard 60D and it's a great little camera.

Jamie

[loki78]

Well, they were released today. Who went and bought one? We want to know how they go!

[loki78]

I've read that the flip out liveview is far more desirable as it moves one of the largest causes of thermal noise in the camera (the LCD screen) away from backing directly onto the CMOS chip, as in the case with the fixed LCD screen DSLR's.

Whether or not this was concerted opinion or backed up with any actual tests or not I really don't know. Seems quite plausible. If that is the case I wonder what the difference in thermal noise from the LCD screen difference is between flip out and fixed position LCD screens.

[MrB]

Not a single aussie dealer I have contacted has got back to me with a price and eta for two bodies, obviously no one wants the money?
unbelievable!

[spacezebra]

:D Coming very soon, and local supplier!

Cheers Petra d.

[pmrid]

Just looking at the specs, I see that the pixels are pretty small - something like 4.3 microns. That will suit some scopes of course but with others it will be a limitation.

I cancelled my order for one - for now - my recent experience with the 1000D was pretty negative so I figured it might be better to wait and see.
Peter

[loki78]

Digital Camera Warehouse in Sydney has had them on their site for a while and for sale as of today

http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/prod8839.htm

[Eris]

Last week I saw one advertised on Ted's website for $999.95 (body only). They must have had it mixed up with the D60. It was promptly jacked up to $1699.95 the day after.

[luigi]

This is very interesting I didn't think about it. Thank you!
If the flip screen helps the neck, the back and the thermal noise then it's a great thing!
:thanx:

[roddz]

Got mine yesterday!
Canon was very quick in delivering them.
Looks good but haven't had a chance to try it as its cloudy here.
Geelong club has a star party this weekend, but looks like being cloudy.
Murphys law?

[iceman]

The 60D and 1000D are worlds apart.

The 60D comes from the heritage of the 20D and 40D - good stock!

[loki78]

Well it seems you're the only one of us with one so far so I think I can speak for all of us when I say we are hoping you get clear skies this weekend and a chance to test it out. Then to come running back to us and tell us all about it of course ;)

[2stroke]

How so? The 1000D is an entry level camera, the 60D is mid. Canon EOS's are No.1 when it comes to software and astrophotography. The 1000D is a bit on the noisy side without being cooled but i would still go one over a nikon 3100 for ap work for the software support alone.

Heres something real fun http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1100D/10 just select raws and see how things turn out lol, you can even scroll down to raw section and play.

[Adelastro1]

I just received an email from John Sarkissian announcing that the major prize for the Overall Winner in this year's David Malin Awards is the new Canon 60Da DSLR! A great and fitting prize. Well done Canon!

[soundworthy]

Forgive my noobness,
Does the larger sensor size of the 5DmkII offer more than the smaller 60Da sensor size?

In general I'm looking for pros and cons, a comparison of the 5d2 and the 60da, anyone?

[gregbradley]

There's a 5D2 on Astromart for $2000 thats been modified with Astrodon replacement filter. The sample images are fabulous.

There is no substitute for a large sensor but it does place demands on the scope. You need a focuser and scope that has a large enough corrected circle to illuminate the sensor without coma. Usually that also means using a flattener and 3 inch focusers or larger. Some report success with 2.7 inch focuser so it may depend on scope model.

Greg.

[soundworthy]

I'm going to get the P-FLAT68, but why a 3inch focuser?

[gregbradley]

You'd really need to ask for owners of specific telescopes you are interested.

I am basing that comment on a Tak FS152 with a 2.7 inch focuser. I tried various flatteners etc and got very bad vignetting.

I ended up upgrading its focuser to 4 inch and it was all good.

Someone posted they had success with a TOA130 and 2.7 inch focuser so perhaps it was a better flattener than the one I used.

Greg.