View Full Version here: : STX 16803 - pulled the trigger now which scope?
28-03-2012, 08:39 AM
Got a deal on brand new sbig stx 16803 that I could not refuse so pulled the trigger.
With pending arrival in 4 to 6 weeks of my Orion Optics AG-10 it's going to be a hard choice what camera to put on it.
What's your views on which camera for which scope.
I have stf-8300 arriving shortly as well. Sbig finally shipped it to Peter Ward.
So I am thinking side by side setup of Ag-10 and fsq106
Thinking stf8300 on fsq106 and stx16803 on ag-10
28-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Choices choices lol Well the stf would be good on the AG10 when u want to get that bit closer and the stx would give fantastic wide fields with the FSQ. Make it so that u can easily change camera's and u can do whatever whenever :)
28-03-2012, 06:20 PM
Use either on both would be the most flexible setup.
16803 is by far the best chip and it looks good on all scopes.
28-03-2012, 06:54 PM
Here's my choice for two reasons - based on the vignetting and off axis performance with the AG10, and more importantly the choice of image scales I would be putting the big chip onto the FSQ106 and the ST8300 onto the AG10
The SBIG 16803 camera has the main chip and a guide chip in the image circle so the effective image circle is quite large.
1.16 - image scale AG10/8300
2.12 - image scale FSQ/8300
1.95 - image scale AG10/16803
3.50 - image scale FSQ/16803
So if you put the FSQ with the 8300 you end up with the same image scale as the AG10 with the 16803 !
Not a huge point in that for flexibility
This then gives you one Narrow field at 1.16asec/pix and one wide field at 3.5asec/pix
Just my 2c worth
28-03-2012, 07:51 PM
Chris , I'd bail on the AG10....but suspect you are not in a position to do so.
The STX is not really a narrow field camera unless you can afford to run a serious aperture well corrected scope.
I think you will be shocked by its size.
With the CFW (rolling 65mm square filters) it's a BIG camera. Most focusers vignette, sag or do both.
After you work out how difficult it is to get the collimation to a point that you are happy with the entire field with 16803, I'll bet the 8300 will be on the ag10 and the 16803 will be on the FSQ, which is tried and tested, and does not need to be collimated.
Big chips + fast newts = collimation hell IMHO.
28-03-2012, 08:33 PM
I'll second that notion. Collimating Newts drives me crazy, I can't imagine trying to manage on the aircraft carrier that is the 16803 CCD.
28-03-2012, 08:49 PM
Thanks guys. Now you have scared me.
The AG10 has an FLi Atlas focuser with same opening size as Mike Sidoneo's AG12. Plus it has the reinforced rings on the OTA connected to focuser, so hopefully I dont see sag. Collimation on the other hand scares me a lot. So you may be right with STX ending up on FSQ.
28-03-2012, 09:07 PM
And that would be a problem ? :) Having one of the best camera's on one of the best scopes lol. I wish.
Doesn't Mike run a 16803 FLI, or is the STX bigger again?
And while we're at it, why hasn't Mike posted any pictures from last weekend yet! :P
28-03-2012, 10:49 PM
STX 16803 is 5 Pounds
Proline 16803 is 5.5 Pounds
So very similar weight. Although I think STX filter wheel is heavier so probably end up similar weight.
29-03-2012, 06:13 PM
Collimation of Big newts is not a issue if you have the right equipment!!!!! Everybody gets so scared of them because of all the "issues" that get posted.
Low quality or budget newts bang a mirror in a tube with a focuser and away we blow 400 dollars later equal flexure and other associated issues
a OOUK AG10 is no such beast, its CF, precision made mirror cell and couple that with a bohemith FLI Atlas focuser you shouldn't have issues.
Look at a Autocollimator for your collimation they are truely the way to go. I don't work for nor get any spin offs but Cats eye gear does the job extremely well! A laser collimator no matter how much you spend on it will not get anywhere close to the accuracy of a autocollimator even with the barlow adaptors. I guess its not till you see them in practice that you will understand :)
Getting a flat field on a 16803 chip can be done mikes AG12 is a testiment to that. Yes it will take you a short while to figure your feet out but I don't see that you will be changing the setup for a while yet unless you go for the next size up!
My 2c worth
30-03-2012, 08:16 PM
I'd bail on the STX mate huge can of worms :shrug: Get a ProLine before it's too late to go back better camera by all standards, just look at how many are out there being used veeeery successfully :thumbsup:.
Having two scopes and two cameras is fantastic, you will be in a great position :thumbsup:.
It's a no brainer, I'd put the 16803 on the AG10 and the 8300 on the FSQ, then use the FSQ to gather the RGB and the AG10 to get the deeeep Lum or Ha all at the same time :thumbsup:
30-03-2012, 08:19 PM
A family crisis :rolleyes:...but this weekend (Sat???) should prove better..I hope.
30-03-2012, 09:17 PM
Also look at how often Proline's come up for sale second hand.... ~never~
That should tell you everything.
30-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Oh well I guess my lowly STX 16803 will just have to do :P
30-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Don't get me wrong.. I'm jealous...
But I'd be more so if you had just bought a Proline.
30-03-2012, 10:52 PM
Really Mike? And one of your sponsor's is ???
30-03-2012, 11:19 PM
I did seriously consider that but given they were the same weight. 4 things tipped it in favour of stx
1. Self guding chip. Some people may say bah humbug to this but when you can use it its better than OAG and consumes no back focus. 2 nights ago i used my internal guide chip on st2000xm with Ha filter 7 second guide exposures. Stars were perfect
2. Remote guide head (if they ever enable it on STX)
3. CCDSoft integration and SkyX integration. Proline seems to mean Maxim DL if you want all features. I dont need more software to learn and CCDsoft initegrates with CCDCommander and my other cameras nicely.
4. Price. I got mine from an american guy who owned more cameras than he could use and had never even put his STX on a telescope yet. Saved me a LOT compared to Proline or new STX
30-03-2012, 11:23 PM
Proline (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/141256265/original) Rules :)
30-03-2012, 11:24 PM
Nice work, I am sure it will be a great camera Chris :thumbsup:
31-03-2012, 12:02 AM
They are now available. I have one sitting in my observatory.
Differenital guiding and AO-X is sadly dragging the chain...but is in the pipeline
31-03-2012, 12:43 AM
I have never used one but on paper it would seem the STX is a strong competitor to Proline.
FLI cameras are awesome but they lack any guiding solutions. FLI does not appear to be planning any autoguiding products, development and relies on other manufacturers products.
STX has several including self guide. Self guide is still a viable guiding solution that handles flexures which Proline users tend to have to deal with usually by MMOAG otherwise the sheer weight is a problem unless you are using CDK, AP scopes that are proven to handle that weight.
Autoguiding has not advanced much for a long time and its overdue for some technical improvements. SBIG has done more work here with the various autoguiding techniques - perhaps their worth is to be proven, but at least they are leading the development.
Until you get round stars with 10 minute exposures you haven't even left the station yet on almost any setup (AG12 excepted:lol:).
How to achieve that requires more than just a good mount.
31-03-2012, 09:49 AM
A refreshing, clear, reasoned analysis. Well put :thumbsup:
03-04-2012, 12:22 PM
Father XMAS arrived today for a 2nd time in 2 days. (STF-8300 arrived yesterday)
Peter you were not wrong. This thing is a beast.
Some pics attached of STX16803 and of FLI 50mm filter wheel shown next to SBIG 65mm filter wheel.
Now to try figure out what adaptors I need to connect this to my scopes.
Need to order some 65mm filters now. Might see if I can get FLI wheel working with this while I wait.
03-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Geeez Chris, since your return to the imaging game it's been more than Christmas at your place..it's been Saaaale of the Century and you're the carry over champion :lol:
03-04-2012, 06:31 PM
yes, thats for sure, SBIG has been mucking around with dual guiding development for ages and it's still not available. Mike Berthon-jones knocked up multiple star, dual guiding (with an OAG and external guide scope) for his SBIG/20" CDK in a matter of days. I sat in front of the OBS PC while it was guiding and it was stunning. 2sec subs from the guide scope, and longer from the OAG for fast, no flex guideing for 1hr subs way over 2m FL. And with 10 or more stars :eyepop:. If an amature can do this, are SBIG and FLI asleep , sheesh, makes you wonder.
03-04-2012, 07:42 PM
How did do multiple stars Fred? Was that using the Maxim plug in? I thought that was for only 2 stars though.
I was wanting to do the same and plan to do that fairly soon. MMOAG and a guide scope.
I was thinking also perhaps a guide camera with multiple CCDs in it to get multiple stars each one indepently setup or even out of phase with each other over several seconds to avoid seeing effects. Say 6 CCDs (small ones like little Sony ones) each imaging at say 6 - 12 second exposures and 1 second apart always getting a bright guide star (5 second exposures should capture a decent guide star in most images) and 1 second apart for rapid corrections.
Perhaps even an averaging of the 6 ccds in times of bad seeing to more closely extract the actual PE from the seeing effects.
Want to build one Fred? Imagine how many we could sell if it set a new standard of excellence.
Sounds fascinating Fred.
I must try that Maxim multi-star plug-in again, should be great in theory but I've never been able to get it to play properly.
03-04-2012, 08:20 PM
Mike designed everything for his rig for astro imaging, everything . Mount drive (and software), PEC, image capture, guiding, planetarium software, image processing. Not anything to do with DL plugins, or DL at all :P. Vastly superior to that rubbish :thumbsup:
03-04-2012, 08:39 PM
He clicked some thing, and bingo, a box appeared on every avaiable star in view for guiding (external guide cam). A star viewed on the OAG cam then shifted the boxes on the external cam images to cause a flex correction when required, pure poetry, I was moved.
03-04-2012, 08:43 PM
Tell me about it. I dont even want to think what I have spent this year. But at least its decent gear that will serve me well for a while now.
Last expense is filters and adaptors :mad2:
Adaptors drive me nuts. Be great if there was an industry standard developed for all focusers. Just choose opening size and adaptor length for say 3 sizes. 48mm, 54 and 65 that would cover most peoples needs and simplify things a whole lot in terms of cost and time. You then just buy different extension lengths for the opening size you have...nice to dream anyway
03-04-2012, 09:03 PM
Sounds like a dream system, any way he can tell us more about it ?
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