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[HRT]

Greetings,

I'm new here thus I won't be offended if you advise me on where I should go.....

Regardless, telescopes are like peanuts - who can stop at just one? Thus, I have been looking to buy a fourth and this experience has led to the creation of one moan and one grizzle.

It seems that many of the ads are written at about 2 AM when the seller should be sleeping. They are often ambiguous, difficult to understand and replete with abbreviations that must be a mystery to beginners. Moreover, the lack of a comprehensive description leads me to think the advertiser believes Mike charges $100/word.

My point is, ads in shorthand are a pain and lead to a stream of potential buyers asking for more info. All this could be avoided if sellers provided the info they themselves would want if buying the item(s).

My second point concerns the practice of another member adding a comment to an ad along the lines of "Jack's QDL784BH is a fantastic scope and I wish I had the money to buy it" or, "Jack's scope is the best 105mm ED APO SSA I have seen and whoever gets it will be very happy".

When I read comments such as these, I can't help feel I could be being set up. Accordingly, I will not respond to adds which feature praise from a friend.

Am I Mr Crusoe on these points or am I being a little precious?

[astroron]

All as I have to say about this post ,is
Not a very good way to introduce your self.:rolleyes:
Most people introduce them selves and get to know the forum before being critical.:sadeyes:
What experience do you have with telescopes other than buying them:question: Not much by the sounds of it :shrug:
Cheers :thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

As for your first point, I agree. As you often need to be quick to respond to an advertisement to get any chance of securing the item, full information would be much appreciated, as would photos, that will give a prospective purchaser a chance to see the condition and check that the item is as described. In that way they can respond quickly.

As for your second point, I disagree. IIS community are, in general, a great bunch and will help each other out, where they can, and as often as they can. I do not see that as being a set-up, if you do your research correctly. Mostly, they are offering genuine, honest and friendly help. In the unlikely event that they were setting someone up, that would be disappointing and, I feel, very surprising. After all, it is a small community and that behaviour would soon be noticed.

I have rarely had to doubt the veracity of any claims, and on the occasions that has happened, it has been openly and widely discussed by others on this site.

I have faith they we are an honest bunch and that any advice is given in an open and honest way. However, as with all things in life, one must take certain precautions when dealing with others. And that is really easy to do. We are a great bunch and IIS is the best place to be.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Bit harsh Ron. Some people are just naturally too cautious and that isn't a bad thing. :) It is a valid concern. after all.

[DavidTrap]

If the potential purchaser doesn't understand your ad, you are less likely to make a sale - so, I agree that shorthand isn't advisable.

As to your other comment - it is an open forum, so anyone can comment on another's "for sale thread". I've had people make unsolicited comments on my thread - the potential purchaser can make up their own mind as to whether they think they're genuine recommendations. People are fairly astute here (think of who is likely to be attracted to astronomy) and will usually see through a "set-up". I've also seen comments on some for sale threads that are pointing out "problems".

DT

[Stardrifter_WA]

True that David, well said :)

[mozzie]

well said ron,peter and david.....

all i can add is some items for sale iv'e or we have had the pleasure to use or look out and are only adding that it is an excellent item in excellent condition..and letting any possible buyers know of this !!!!!!!!!!

[Bassnut]

Well said ron,Peter,David,Peter ......
Geez, are you over 16?.

[Finite]

Now, I must say I was a novice in internet forum etiquette when I asked to join up with you ISS guys, (and still am really) and didnt really know to give an introduction of themselves like i've seen others do. But I must say even I thought HRT's message was a little odd, a bit confrontational. But then, HRT joined 5 to 6 yrs ago, so maybe feels he has known the members long enough to be frank.

Looking through the ads and other posts in my limited time here, I've seen nothing but informed and fair comment, interlaced with some brilliantly funny and throughly entertaining dialogue. I think you can trust what is said, these folk aren't the cross section of society you might find dwelling on a boy racer forum.

Is there a particular advert that has got your goat? Or a bad experience in trying to buy something from another member? I'm just trying to guage what your query is based in.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Frankly, I think HRT's comments were fairly innocuous anyway and they were fair and valid comments regardless. After all, he stated he was new and didn't want to offend anyone.

Sometimes with the written word within this forum you are not totally able to express ones mood correctly, in the same manner as you do directly. You simply cannot observe body language. HRT's comments may have come across somewhat differently in person. The emoticons go someway to alleviate this problem, but not entirely.

Just because someone may not fully know how to use this site (I certainly don't) he or she shouldn't be condemned, because they may come across as offensive, for they may not be. I sometimes struggle with how to put things without it sounding offensive, even with using the emoticons.

HRT, I think you comments were valid and that shouldn't put you off making further observations. I defend your right to your comments and didn't in any way find them offensive, even if I didn't agree with them. After all, many don't necessarily agree with all mine, nor would I expect them too.

As long as nobody uses abusive or offensive language, all comments should be grateful received, even if you don't agree with them. You can always comment :D

[iceman]

I think it's a fair point to ask that people be more descriptive in their ads. I think all too frequently, people think that *everyone* understands the acronyms etc. It's part of the "guidelines" of IceTrade that people be fully descriptive in their ads. But of course it's a guideline, we don't enforce it.

People are generally doing a disservice to themselves if they're not descriptive, with pictures, because they'll be putting off a segment of their potential buyers.

But I don't think it's a fair call to think that any "praise" from other members is a setup. Actually I see it as helping people who are not sure if it's a good deal.
I think out of the 10,000+ items that have been sold through IceTrade, I've only seen 'false recommendations' a few times.

Also, being a member since 2006 you can hardly be classified "as new here" :)

[alistairsam]

Hi,

whilst it is ideal for ads to be descriptive, there is nothing wrong in asking details or clarification on something you don't understand or is not clear.

people usually write descriptions as they perceive it. so its hard to enforce guidelines on descriptions and acronyms.

my point is the seller should be free to write as little or much details as they see fit, after all that would directly impact their sale, so its in their interest to be descriptive, at the same time if something looks interesting but is unclear its simple enough to ask, there are people with varied levels of expertise here and a lot are beginners, so no one will judge your questions.

As for others soliciting sales, people here are quite honest and you can easily make out from a comment on whether its true or not, and if it is an expensive item, you could draw conclusions from pics or see it for yourself or PM the seller or contact them directly to get more details, that way it is unbiased.

this is a great forum and place to sell items and I've bought and sold a few things, never had any bad experiences. Not to say there can't be, but its unlikely.

again, its impossible for the moderators here or in any forum to enforce how a seller should write. just ask for clarification, others will add comments to help you understand but are highly unlikely to bias a sale. stick to the sellers descriptions or comments and form your own opinion.

by saying another persons comment is always suspicious is a bit offensive to those who've sincerely commented with the intention of sharing their experiences or just felt like saying something.

[tlgerdes]

And whilst we are at it, with pictures, a little focus on the object, rather than the background, foreground, window, fingers etc would be really beneficial.

For an astronomy group who prides itself on clarity of seeing, I find it ironic that we can't get our pictures in focus for ads:lol:

[TrevorW]

Like setting the background something white should IMO be placed against a darker background likewise something dark against a lighter one and as Trevor said focusing also helps.

I found nothing fundamentally wrong with the posters comments

[Barrykgerdes]

I have two comments that don't apply only to ads.

The use of SMS language and acronyms in posts always annoys me. I am probably much older than most and many of these abrieviations change over a relatively short period and of course many are jargon based and mean different things to different groups. Just try googling some of the more common ones. Of course in my younger days I often used abrieviations and acronyms however many of the terms used today have totally different meanings and some of them are text that meant obscene comments in my day.

The other is on focus. It is very hard sometimes to get a good focus on close objects under inside lighting with auto focus on objects and then have a flash go off. I have had to photograph an object many times to get the picture to focus on what I want.

Barry

[Stardrifter_WA]

Fair enough point, but, not all of us spend our money on "normal" photographic equipment. I only have a very ordinary "happy snap" camera that isn't brilliant, so I cannot produce those "require" sharp images. Sorry! :(

[mozzie]

hope so.....:D

[vanwonky]

Hi Hedley,
Yes I know your name because I looked at your other posts. Wasn't that hard with only two, but you don't seem like the demon (or 16 year old) you've been made out to be by some. I think your post could have been worded just a little differently and you would of had a completely different reaction here. Actually you could nearly keep it the same and learn the not so subtle art of using smiley emoticons as mentioned - (insert one here). I actually hate them and the overuse of them but it does help in not being misconstrued to a degree. Of course they also can be used as an excuse to say some nasty stuff.

I nevertheless agree with all your points. Some of these guys have obviously known each other for years either personally or through the forum and are comfortable with each other and have mutual trust. To a newbie it can seem a little weird having the "a great item" comment in their from another. And yes, acronyms suck and assumed knowledge sucks but it is a way to learn when you go scouring the net for the meaning. Agreed though, it is not the best for the direct and quick sale of the item.

Don't get me started on blurry photos! Whoops forgot the smiley there.

A good idea is to have a look at the sellers previous posts. I have on a couple of occasions now seen the "new, unused, unwanted present" being talked about in use. Sure it "could" have been a double and was unwanted but who knows - (smiley). Having said that I have bought 5 items so far all with excellent results.

Anyway hope all this hasn't scared you off for another 5 years. It is a great forum with some odd but possibly lovable characters ;).

Cheers
Dave

[Moon]

5 years between posts, and then this?
I call troll. Master troll. :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Interesting that we haven't heard from HRT:question: Don't give up HRT :thumbsup: I hope this hasn't put you off, as that would be tragic.

Just because some don't agree with your comments, I defend your right to make them, as they are valid comments anyway, as I have said before.

Hey guys and gals, HRT may be a bit shy and this site can be daunting for a newcomer. I was on this site for sometime before I felt comfortable enough to ask questions and make comments; and I am by no means shy!

SO give HRT a fair go. :D After all, we all have different opinions and ideas and this is what makes this site so exciting.

[astroron]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::roll eyes::rolleyes:
Keep that up Peter and you will have us all in tears:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:
The guy is no Newbie he has four telescopes so he says and has been a member on here for about six years:rolleyes:
As has been noted I think this is a big Troll:P
Cheers

[vanwonky]

Aaahhhh! Emoticonamania! Ron your killing me. Come on Hedley, say something. I am getting trounced here!

"It was a pleasure to met you at Astrofest after all Hedley". There Ron, a direct quote from another post involving Hedley.

By the way, I understand what some idiots might be up to when trolling - just shi**stirring and wasting everyones time etc. but what in your mind makes this particular post from a troll Ron et al.

Cheers
Dave

[Stardrifter_WA]

What? :eyepop: We now get criticised for being nice :D :lol: That's shameful :lol:

[bobson]

Hey guys, dont rush him. Patience is a virtue. And by the look of it hes got it :)

Who wants to bet he'll come back in 5 years and comment on this topic? :)

cheers

bob

[astroron]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Cheers

[GeoffW1]

Now that's nasty, not needed

[TrevorW]

Really guys if you don't like what someone has said or believe they are trolling then PM them direct or a moderator.

I'm getting a bit tired of people making direct or indirect snide remarks about other posters because they don't like what has been written

This is not a exclusive club keep snide, derogatory or demeaning remarks about other forum members to yourself, making them lacks maturity and doesn't bode well for you

:thanx:

[HRT]

OK guys - I'm back.

With the exception of one poster whose comments, I thought, were vitriolic, vicious and wrong I believe the comments on my post were entirely reasonable.

However, some seem to think I wrote that third party praise about items for sale indicated a setup. I would like to make it clear I did not say that. If you thought that way please go back and read what I said, particularly noting use of the word "could".

Here too is part of what I wrote to a member who was curious enough to ask me about my post.

"My comment about the possibility of being set up was based on two experiences I have had with "boosting" by another "shopper" who just happened to be standing nearby when I was discussing a product with the salesman".

IIS now has over 10,000 members and it is unlikely that all are as straight as we would like. Indeed, Mike seems to acknowledge this via his requirement that advertisers must have been a member for 30 days and have made 5 posts before they may offer an item for sale.

I note no such prohibition applies to buyers which is fortunate, otherwise I would not have purchased Adman's fine refractor last night. If any still think I have spikey ears and a tail and know nothing about astronomy you might like to contact the vendor and see what he has to say.

I have not been active in astronomy for some years as I went about other interests - including trans ocean sailing which required some knowledge of the heavens. My long absence was behind my comment that I was new here.

But a troll? Well, I have traded on eBay for quite a few years and if you want to check my "trollness" read my feedback - hrt1009 will find it.

[Bassnut]

Oh dear. Trading on IIS is based on loose unmoderated discussion between buyers and sellers, nothing to do with IIS and nothing to do with protocol other than common sense if it occurrs. Buyer beware.

You need to be over 16 to deal with life generally without a nanny over your shoulder. I was just checking :P.

[vanwonky]

Welcome back Hedley! Sans spikey ears and a tail.
Cheers
Dave

[Stardrifter_WA]

Welcome Back HRT.

[adman]

Yes - I can confirm I have sighted the viscious HRT - and can further confirm that there was no tail, nor pointy ears. He was in fact a perfect gentleman and a fine addition to IIS.....oops, I think this is getting awfully close to 'boosting' you Hedley!! :lol:

[Moon]

Troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)) means you are off topic and (hopefully unintentionally) triggering an emotive, pointless discussion. It doesn't mean your a bad person with pointy ears.
Please tell us your astronomy story and how you navigated by the stars. We would all love to hear about that. :thumbsup: Seriously.
As a word of warning, eBay, the injustice of speed limits, the NBN, and global warning are probably not good choices for your next post.
James

[stephenb]

Amazing how quickly people assassinated the character of a fellow member. Well hopefully that has shut the grumpy inner circle up for another few threads. Welcome back HRT.




Probably best to add anything to do with Apple and text shorthand to that ever growing list.

[rainwatcher]

Poor old HRT, beaten senseless with a wet bus ticket.
You would think he abused the pope, hang on that’s OK on this forum; its our American friends we need to be protective of.:D
Pretty harmless stuff.

[astroron]

Breaking down HRT post

It seems that many of the ads are written at about 2 AM when the seller should be sleeping.

If you miss out, that is too bad, the guy is only interested in selling the article not your sleeping habbit's ;)


They are often ambiguous, difficult to understand and replete with abbreviations that must be a mystery to beginners. Moreover, the lack of a comprehensive description leads me to think the advertiser believes Mike charges $100/word.

That's what PM's are for, if you want more information:question:


My point is, ads in shorthand are a pain and lead to a stream of potential buyers asking for more info. All this could be avoided if sellers provided the info they themselves would want if buying the item(s).

One shouldn't need to write a book to sell ones wares:rolleyes:

My second point concerns the practice of another member adding a comment to an ad along the lines of "Jack's QDL784BH is a fantastic scope and I wish I had the money to buy it" or, "Jack's scope is the best 105mm ED APO SSA I have seen and whoever gets it will be very happy".

You don't need to take any notice of what anyone else says, go to the seller and ask the questions, if you do not understand :question:

When I read comments such as these, I can't help feel I could be being set up. Accordingly, I will not respond to adds which feature praise from a friend.

So you doubt the person making the comments,:question: that is your right and you can act accordingly:)

Am I Mr Crusoe on these points or am I being a little precious?

YES, IMHO, that's why I answered you message the way I did in the first place.;)

All the other stuff that has come along since the start of this post.
Character Assassination pointy ears, ect were just over the top.:sadeyes:

That you are happy with your purchase goes to show that you can purchase stuff on Ice Trades with a fair degree of confidence :)
And you where able to purchase one so quickly just about negates your comment about the early morning posters as you got a reply very quickly:D

I am sure in time you will learn the acronyms and all will be happy:):):)

Cheers :thumbsup:

[GeoffW1]

How can it be unmoderated? :screwy: Aren't we being moderated? :question:

Anyway it's all moot, because your post was allowed to stay in, so there you go. :thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

I agree with Ron's last comment.

However, it can be daunting for the newcomer and we still need to be mindful of this. Also, often, you need to be quick if you wish to purchase and item from Ice Trade, and for newcomers, or those that don't understand abbreviations, this requires further info, and by the time they get it, it is often too late.

I have been an amateur since I was 12, after my first visit to Perth Observatory, and have even contributed to a number of scientific papers, over the years, so I am no dummy, and yet, I still don't understand some of the abbreviations. Just not up with the current jargon, it seems. After all, I don't know everything.

Besides, communication is about getting your message across and feedback is whether that message has been interpreted correctly. Obviously, this is not happening. In that regard, I thought HRT's comments and feedback were quite valid, and was surprised at some the offense that was taken by it, although I suspect some of that was tongue in cheek anyway, but doesn't always come across like that.

Also, it concerns me that any newcomer reading this thread may be put off commenting due to the negative feedback. which is why I gave positive feedback, after all, we are quick to condemn but slow to praise in society. Too much stick and not enough carrot, so to speak.

However, I do recognise that everyone has there own ideas and opinions and I defend your right to do so. But, it could appear to a newcomer that IIS isn't a friendly place, which is definitely not the case.

I found joining IIS to be a little intimidating and although IIS does have a newcomer section, which is great, but the newcomer slowly graduates to other sections. I didn't start out there anyway, as it was a little basic for me, but I watched there for a while to get the feel for IIS.

I have joined IIS twice, with the first time I felt very intimidated and didn't feel that I belonged on this site and left without comment, some time later. How many others have done this? This isn't anything new, it happens within all groups.

I came back to the site in 2010 and I persevered and started to make contributions, as I wanted to belong to this great group of people. I have still found it intimidating and still feel I don't necessarily belong or am accepted. Again, this isn't anything new.

Newcomers to a group or club take a long time to be truly accepted. This site makes that that little bit harder, as we do not get to meet many off this site. I haven't met anyone that I don't already know anyway.

But having said all that, I have enjoyed this thread. It has been lively, after all. :D

Regards Peter