Australia's final pitch for the Square Kilometer Array (SKA)

[gary]

In an article entitled "Australia in last-ditch bid for telescope", Sydney Morning Herald
reporter Stephen Cauchi reports on a four person delegation lead by Brian Boyle
making a final pitch in London last month for Australia and New Zealand to be the
home for the Square Kilometer Array (SKA).

See -
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/australia-in-lastditch-bid-for-telescope-20120107-1ppf9.html

The SKA consortium lists some of the site selection criteria that are taken into
account as -


The Australian and New Zealand case is strong -
http://www.skatelescope.org/the-sites/australia-zealand/

but so too is that of the South Africans, with the proposal that the core of the
antennae be placed on the Karoo plateau with other antennae located in
Namibia, Botswana, Mozambique, Madagascar, Mauritius, Zambia, Kenya and Ghana.
http://www.skatelescope.org/the-sites/southern-africa/

The SKA Australia web site is here -
http://www.ska.gov.au/Pages/default.aspx

The SKA Africa web site is here -
http://www.ska.ac.za

The SKA project will produce a mind-boggling collection of engineering
statistics, including that it is projected to require the computer processing
power equivalent of one billion modern PC's.

The networking requirements represent what the SKA consortium describe as -


See http://www.skatelescope.org/the-technology/signal-processing/

[astroron]

Thanks Gary,
Wow it is some project, with mind boggling numbers of data to be processed:eyepop:
I hope Australia gets it,I think they will just on the political side, with the security side being the winner as few of those countries are just a bit dodgy in that area.
Cheers :thumbsup:

[Octane]

I think one of the prongs that the South African delegation is using for winning the bid is giving the underprivileged a chance to work on something exciting.

Kind of makes sense. And, kudos to them.

But, I do hope Australia/New Zealand wins. What an immense project.

H

[Omaroo]

I think you're right Humayun. For South Africa it would be a nation-building exercise. Whether local security for each of the many sites is a problem, that's a big question.

I've lived there for a while, and I'm afraid that anything of value without a 16' razor wire fence around it doesn't necessarily last long. I've been speaking with a friend of mine who spent many years there, has a South African wife and still has rellies back there that say travel by car around the country is considered impossible now - unless you have a stash of your own weapons on board. Crazy stuff. I'm sure that there are some places that don't suffer this problem, but they're becoming far and few between.

I'm sure that these concerns will have been considered and answered by the South Africans in their bid.

Good luck to us though.

[astronut]

We at The MAS have Prof Bryan Gaensler as our patron.
Prof Gaensler is a prime figure in The Ska.
Prof Gaensler will be our guest speaker later this year.
The Ska project scientist, Dr Lisa Harvey-Smith has also been a regular visitor to The Macarthur Astronomy Forums over the last 3 years.
Dr Harvey-Smith will be our guest speaker on June 18th, and she will bring us up to date with the decision that will be broadcast on February 29th.
Please keep an eye on The MAS (http://www.macastro.org.au)website for further information.:)

[issdaol]

Irregardless of whether Australia win the official full SKA project Australia will proceed with our own version. The Government has already committed $100 million dollars and has the pilot site established in Mid Western Australia. I believe that CSIRO will be purchasing the first Supercomputing nodes towards the later half of 2012. This "smaller" version alone will generate hundreds of Petabytes of data. Apparently the data links from the telescope site to the processing datacentre will need Terabit+ network links to keep up with the data capture.

[rainwatcher]

I also hope we get it. Unfortunately SA has to be considered a basket case. I have many friends that have come from there and they concur with Omaroo. The phrase is not longer PC but the country only changed its masters not its mores. This one seems as corrupt as any of the previous ones you wish to mention, seems a pity Mandela is in any way related to it.
Still we have our own basket cases here – how much carbon tax will they pay ? none I suppose only the working class have to pay that. Hope they don’t need water for their cooling and if they do they better avoid Victoria.
As a government we are actually less stable than SA, they are as stable as any one party so called Democracy can be. Whereas we, well why go on its not going to change anything.
Good luck to the team.
Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Unfortunately, I do not think Australia will get it, purely on political and economic grounds.

There is a lot of politicking going on as South Africa needs the investment more, so I think they will get, regardless of the security issues faced by South Africa.

I am often wrong and this is one time I hope that proves true :D

[astronut]

Unfortunately, it only takes one terrorist act in SA, and The Ska project is scr*wd.

[renormalised]

Wouldn't even take that......none of those governments could in any way be classed as being stable. And none, except SA, have any of the infrastructure to be able to host anything like (part thereof) the SKA. Any investors in the project would be mad to see it put up there, including the organisations involved in building and running it.

[Stardrifter_WA]

None of that matters when politics are involved. We also have the disadvantage of being a very expensive place to do business in WA and SA has a distinct advantage cost wise.

[renormalised]

The politics of doing business in SA and the rest of Africa is far too risky, for anyone with half a brain that was wanting to invest in and build something like the SKA. Your array would be useless almost right from the start, simply because its security couldn't even be guaranteed by or even from those that were tasked to secure it!!!. To set it up and run it there would eventually cost a lot more than setting it up here, simply because of that, let alone having to train the people to build and maintain it. The costs and the risks are just too high, even if the political inducements were somehow palatable, which in actual fact they're not.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Fair point! I am no expert, by any means, and am going by what is reported in the parliament and press.

But SA needs the investment more than Australia and as a result there is a great degree of lobbying going on for SA to get it. Your point that it is risky is definitely valid, however, if that were the deciding factor then SA wouldn't even be considered in the first place. The fact that the SA site is actually much better than the Murchison seems to have been ignored. Mining within the Murchison is of considerable concern, although it is thought to be manageable.

Of bigger concern for WA is the Chinese seeking greater exploration licences. The Chinese have applied for a an exploration licence that covers the entire Perth metro area and they are seeking wider exploration rights throughout WA is a major concern.

I hope WA gets it. However, if SA wins the bid, my point is that it would probably mostly based on political grounds and not economic and security grounds.

[renormalised]

SA was considered only because of its past reputation and the fact it was the only other radio quiet area on the planet which was suitable. Australia may not need the investment dollars, but SA needs a lot more than investment dollars to progress beyond the point in their history they've reached at present. Those other countries that have been named are barely more than basket cases, despite the money that's been poured into some of them...and politics has played an enormous factor in those situations.

The Chinese are trying to consolidate their hold on resources that they haven't necessarily got in their own country, or don't have an abundance of, if they do. Australia has always been, and has always allowed itself to be, the whipping boy when it comes to mineral resources and their exploitation. What's being played out here is a strategic game of resource utilisation and consolidation by another bully boy that, if it could, would come and take them anyway at our own expense. Much easier to do this when you have a government in power that is "friendly" (if you get my drift) with the government in China. Our foreign minister is a grand example of this and he's not the only one. The diehards in the Labour party have just replaced (or acknowledge to a greater extent) one set of ideologues with another.

[TrevorW]

The following are some of the criteria that will be taken into account:


Radio frequency interference from mobile phones, TVs, radios and other electrical devices.
Physical characteristics of the site including climate and subsurface temperatures.
Connectivity across the vast extent of the telescope itself as well as to communications networks for worldwide distribution of data produced by the SKA.
Infrastructure costs, including power supply and distribution.
Operations and maintenance costs.
The long term sustainability of the site as a radio quiet zone.

Your would think on these alone we'd win hands down, IMO we are the only logical choice. The problems in Africa are not going to be fixed by pumping in $$$$

[Stardrifter_WA]

Absolutely Carl. We just seem to give everything away. The "lucky country", I am not sure anymore. Maybe we still are, but it is rapidly changing because we don't have any pollies with big shiny ones, certainly not the current PM :rofl:

[TrevorW]

Are you sure:question::P;):lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hmmm.....No? :D And, I don't want to look either :P

[mswhin63]

The is nothing to say that both nations may get a major look in to the project. Using both countries would extend the Base to enormous proportions. Although I think the big jump across the Indian Ocean may create some technical challenges, and not just the data.

[MLyons]

Hmmmm....some interesting opinions on South Africa.
Don't believe everything you read in the papers or get fed by your local TV news service........or even the hearsay from expats' brothers' nephews' aunt..........

Fact is that we already have Meerkat, a scaled down version of SKA which is a significant project in its own right.
This was implemented as a direct indicator of our ability and commitment.

Believe it or not, if you consult the "futurist" intellectuals and academics, their outlook is that the African political and economical workings are a known quantity and can be forecast with some certainty (so one can plan and work around the challenges) whereas the forecast on the Australian stability both economic and political cannot be forecast with any certainty as, believe it or not, they consider it on the brink of a turnaround of sorts due to the influence of the Eastern block. (I was gobsmacked when it was explained to me by a group of very highly regarded futurists)

These "futurists" are an integral part of the selection process because their field of expertise and study can provide significant insight into the perceived long term stability and sustainability of such a project.

Anyways, the conditions here in South Africa, while different, is nowhere near as bad as some would have you believe.

May the best team win.

Martin

[iceman]

Interesting insight Martin, thanks!

[AstralTraveller]

How long have these futurists been in business and what is their track record? I remember a time when people used to trust economists. :shrug:

[mswhin63]

Quite true Martin, I have seen many presentation for the South African bid and they are quite well presented. Both nations have similar projects underway and the amount of costs injected into the system I feel it is going to be quite tight.

I think it would be in the best interest to go multinational on this one as the ultimate goal is Long Base Interferometry and you can image the length of the system if both South Africa and Australia/New Zealand would combine to produce. The other advantage of a combined system is the curvature of the earth and the ability to point separated systems in opposite direction at the same time.

Would even be nice if somewhere in South America would be involved but I don't know the circumstances why they did not put in the bid.

Whatever happens we will know soon.

[wavelandscott]

While I do hope Australia gets the nod, Africa in general is rising quickly...

My company has a couple of projects in Africa and while it is not all beer and skittles in the operation yet, we've been able to replicate our efforts in Japan with little difference in quality (after getting everyone trained up). relatedly the cost of labour in most of Africa is less than that of China (we are closing a plant in China and shifting more work to Africa).

[TrevorW]

My daughter just returned from a trip to Kenya staying with a very nice Kenyan family in Nairobi, she loved the trip but was glad to be back

No guarantee of a daily shower
Sanitation dodgy
Electricity was continually interupted
The family she stayed with lived in a gated and guarded complex Although not well off they even had a servant
Roads were atrocious and road rules virtually non existent.
ATM machines were guarded.

Moving from one country to the next for cheap labour is the norm for multinational corporations, they have little compunction in putting people out of work in one country if they can get labour cheaper in another as the standard of living and cost of labour goes up in the former.

I wonder what will happen when they have nowhere else to go ??

[Stardrifter_WA]

Well said Martin. :)

It seems to me that Australia is truly a victim of its own success. All economies fall, no matter how good they are, as we have mostly incompetent governments who are there for their own ideological and personal gains and ruin the country in the process. I truly fear that our country will end up a much poorer nation and will just be like the vest of the world! What do we have once the minerals have gone? In this respect, it shouldn't really worry me, as I am at the end of my life anyway, but it does. I have children, after all.

[clive milne]

^^^ Does it need to be pointed out how ill-informed this comment is..?
:rolleyes:

[AstralTraveller]

Nah

[JuniorAstro]

To be totally honest, I hope South Africa get it, my opinion is probably going to be biased because I'm born in Johannesburg, South Africa but I think RSA have such amazing potential and since the Apartied has ended they have been looking for ways to prove that there is development within the younger white AND black people and I think if they get this they can be given that chance. It will also be good if they get it because than with the worlds attention partly on South Africa it will help weed out some of the corruption and violence because they will be forced to abbied with the rules that other countries are following.

Best of luck to Australia as well though! :)

[clive milne]

I just hope the choice is made on the basis of which location will return the best science.

~c

[rainwatcher]

A number or correrspondents have mentioned the end of aparthied as if this fixes all. It does not, racisim is still rife in SA government policy. How else to explain their continued support of the vile and racist Mugabe regime. Off with the rose coloured glasses please.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Governments, abide by the rules? Since when does anyone follow the rules? If they don't like them, they change them. They will all get away with what they can! Politics is a perverse corruption anyway. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it is said. Unfortunately, we have far too many examples of this.

[JuniorAstro]

America will look for a scape goat to draw the worlds attention away from their problems, if they find south africa an easy target it will force them to sort out some corruption or the worlds media will be hounding at there door, personally I don't want this to happen but it will help stop some crime if people know they actually might be caught. Take the football world cup for example, the extra security really did help slow down the crime, this might do the same.

Sorry for drifting out of topic though!:P You made a good point Stardrifter.


-Jason