It's official, we are ripped off! [Archive]

KenGee

14-12-2011, 10:52 PM

Gee fancy the CIS saying it's the labour governments fault? I think remember reading one of their press releases when they said it was labour's fault for the flooding in south east Asia.

Let's drop the min wage to 2.50 a day and stuff all thoses people on low wages. Lets ignore the volume issue for Australia and the supply chain issues in Australia. ABC online are the new weekly world news yesterday they were going on how they governement waste money on drug sniffer dogs!

KenGee

14-12-2011, 11:02 PM

OMG I went to his article on the CIS website and it's even worst then I thought he actually lies and plain makes stuff up. So not only does he think Australian workers shouldn't be able to afford a car just so he can get his next Mec cheaper. His fact checking is normal for CIS , I bought a second hand japanese import, even though this guy says you can't.
He thinks we should have cheap bananas here in Australia so we should do what the EU does import bananas from the third world by out bidding the local population so they can't afford the cheap food their country produces. Nice one DR hartwatch

traveller

15-12-2011, 10:47 AM

Agreed KG.
In the interest of balance, I suggest people also read this
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/12/08/australian-exceptionalism/ (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/12/08/australian-exceptionalism/)
Cheers,
Bo

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 11:14 AM

Thankyou Bo, there a lot of Aussies living in a cloud of bullcrap about how bad it is here - many of them supposedly intelligent too.

Of course these same people will not read your link either :rolleyes:

Mike

casstony

15-12-2011, 01:00 PM

Bo, the article you refer to conveniently leaves out the fact that most Australian debt is in private hands.

If one has $500,000 worth of assets but $400,000 in loans, the net wealth is $100,000. Several years of declining property values could see that wiped out and if your job disappears you're suddenly bankrupt.

Take a look at 100 years of Australian house price history, look at what happened in Japan and the US real estate over the last two decades and assess the likelyhood of world economic recession given levels of debt in the worlds major economies.

Life is pretty good for most of us right now but that does not reflect conditions in the rest of the world, conditions that will impact on us sooner or later.

Keltik

15-12-2011, 04:08 PM

The last time I looked the price of petrol in the UK was about 75% higher than here. Their version of GST (VAT) is now at 20%. I think you might find that the situation is worse in other EU countries. Any article by some "institute" claiming the government is the cause of "higher prices" needs to be viewed through that useful astronomical item, the political-bias filter.

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 04:25 PM

Tony, you are confronted with ALL that overwhelming positive reality and agree with it ...but you still manage to start your response with a negative :shrug:

Aussies who complain about things here are simply just not living in a relative reality and in globally relative terms are little different to a mega wealthy super star who complains that their lobster is not served at the right angle in a restaurant :rolleyes:

If you are sick in Australia you can get excellent health care, if your parents are a bit cash strapped but you want to succeed your education is free for 12yrs and high quality, if you are a woman and and want to succeed you can (and even become head of a nation), you will have money when you retire, if you want a hot shower you have it, if you want to flush away your turds you can, if you are having a rough patch in your life there is an excellent social safety net, if you are being abused it can be stopped, if you want to vote a particular way you can etc etc friggin etc

One little thing to add, many people like to bag China and speak negative about dealing with them but just remember this, a person on the average wage in Beijing can afford 62% less goods and services than a person on the average wage in Sydney.

Smile and just realise how good it really is here...

Mike

casstony

15-12-2011, 04:41 PM

One of the functions of government should be to provide a regulatory framework for various facets of the economy which encourages free enterprise but punishes fraud.

Unfortunately our government thinks it knows better than the market and government interference creates distortions in markets/business cycles to our detriment. An obvious example is the first home buyers grant which pushed house prices higher than they should have gone and has kept them higher for longer, the ultimate result of which is that Australian honeowners are far more indebted than they should be and far more exposed to a downturn in the economy. Who benefitted from that poilcy - banks through profits on loans and government through increased tax revenue.

casstony

15-12-2011, 04:51 PM

Mike, I enjoy all the good things in my life too, but if there's a large concrete block hanging over my head I like to keep an eye on it.

Anyone who thinks the next decade will be as easy as the last is living in a fools paradise.

The whole world has pulled forward enormous amounts of economic activity by borrowing and spending - this has to be balanced out by slower econmic activity in the future.

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 04:58 PM

Minor issue at best.

Sorry but we need some reality checks here, seriously :rolleyes: we need to get off our 4 bedroom double garage home, 6 cylinder car, 4WD, computer, Ipod, Iphone, restaurants, holidays, second car, piano lessons, fishing boats, jet skies, goto telescopes, CCD cameras, en-suites, water features, high speed broadband, free to air TV, shopping trollies, one person per car... high horses and slip back into reality for a moment

In a nut shell no matter what cherry picked negative item you throw up, Australians have it the best in the World, too many of us are becoming conceited, shallow and self absorbed :doh: (in a global sense).

Mike

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 05:01 PM

Sure, you may be right but I just find the sort of empty negative rhetoric like the article in this thread, thrown at us, particularly lately, trying to paint a picture of gloom and woe and suggest it is tuff going in Australia, quite ridiculous and even shameful.

Mike

casstony

15-12-2011, 05:05 PM

The property booms and subsequent busts in Japan, Europe and the US are actually one of, if not the major issue that has brought down their economies and nearly destroyed their financial systems, helped along by government and banking fraud.

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 05:08 PM

So do you seriously see a day in the near future when as an Australian you won't have a free education, free medical treatment, be able to buy a car, go to uni, **** in a porcelain toilet, run down the shops for some milk, watch your favourite uncensored TV program, vote in a free and safe election, make a quid if you are clever, order in some take away..etc etc...?

I think not and that is my point and if you haven't got it by now meah se la vi

Mike

multiweb

15-12-2011, 05:18 PM

You mean la dolce vita? :sunny: I like 'c'est la vie' better in Oz than France or I suspect any EU country right now for sure. The food's better, the climate's better, the life style's better, the gvt... erm... I'll shut up now. Minor issue at best. :P

casstony

15-12-2011, 05:19 PM

Mike, it's difficult to overestimate the amount of damage that can be done by the financial and social pressures building in the worlds major economies.

Bernanke and Merkel can only kick the can down the road for so long.

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 05:20 PM

Yep even they are better than all the rest! We even have the worlds greatest treasurer, no not Costello, saving money does not the treasurer make, it's how you use it you see? :lol:

XX

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 05:24 PM

Bah! I love Australia just the way it is and has been.. for the 30 yrs I have understood it anyway :P. The disagreements I have had with various government policies along the way have mostly been semantic but I have long realised how good it is here and I try to keep everything in perspective and I wish more people would do the same. I do worry about the clear xenophobia that has crept in though... but that is not for this thread.

Mike

casstony

15-12-2011, 05:45 PM

Cooincidently 30 years is about how long the world has been propping up economic activity with borrowing. Blind Freddy knows that can't go on forever and I think it's just about crunch time.

I understand that most people don't see what's coming though because the generations that did see such difficult times are mostly gone.

I don't see how Australia can keep going as it has been given what is happening in the rest of the world. We're not an island :D (economically speaking)

TrevorW

15-12-2011, 05:51 PM

What we need through sound Govt policy is that we do not end up going down the path other nations have taken to the detriment of the working man. If the Govt does this we as Australians will continue to enjoy (refer Mikes comments) the standard of living we now do.

:thumbsup:

strongmanmike

15-12-2011, 05:52 PM

And as per the past and no matter what bleating we hear from the nay sayers, we are getting it just fine :thumbsup:

bmitchell82

15-12-2011, 06:16 PM

I love my country and I think its pretty damn good over here.! :) yes we may be getting chaffed by astro dealers around the joint but we have ways around it.

Im with you Mike on this situation.

Gem

15-12-2011, 06:36 PM

I envision the day when no Australian child will be without their GOTO scope....

Seriously though, we have it damn good here. I have visited 30+ countries in my life and spent 5 years in Zambia - 2 years of which in a remote village... Any place that has electricity and hot water is bloody great!! :)

DavidU

15-12-2011, 06:54 PM

Yes Oz is a great place to be, however as a manufacturer I lost the lot during the GFC and am still suffering it's problems.

traveller

15-12-2011, 08:21 PM

And getting back to the original post, yes, we do pay more for some goods compared with other countries, but that's more a combination of government subsidies, companies trying to protect their profits and local trading conditions. End of the day, there is no point in saving a few dollars if that means our kids will be working for $5 a hour.
Don't get me wrong, I love saving a few dollars as much as the next guy, but you can't buy good service.
Yep, we have it good here, esp when compared with the US, Europe, Asia, not to mention S. .America , Africa, which only leaves Antarctica :D
Bo

bobson

15-12-2011, 11:24 PM

No one disputes that Australia is great country. But based on our potential we could do much better. I think thats what the report is all about.

cheers

Jules76

15-12-2011, 11:30 PM

Agree 100%. Currently I see the retail market caught in a catch 22 because of all of this. People who can afford to spend money get sucked into the doom and gloom we constantly hear and start spending less which in turn hurts retailers. Then we hear about how retail spending is significantly down and that they are doing it tough with some having to close down, which in turn feeds into the whole doom and gloom scenario. :screwy: You can't win.

Keltik

16-12-2011, 07:01 AM

Much of the "doom and gloom" is the result of a concerted campaign by a large section of the media ( that controlled by News Ltd.) to denigrate everything the Government has done. One contributor here has decried the level of government "interference" in markets, but it should be noted that single most effective recent action in preserving the Australian standard of living was the level of Government stimulus applied to the economy, and the security provided for bank assets during the GFC. This move was roundly condemned by the Coalition, a stance supported in particular by The Australian newspaper, but without it, many thousands of jobs would have been lost and the resulting loss of confidence by lenders would have sent many Australians into mortgage repossession.
The current campaign against Government "interference" in the mining sector, in the form of a super-profits tax, is another facet of the propaganda war that would have you believe that these multibillionaire companies ( most of which have a high foreign ownership component) will simply pack up and go offshore, resulting in "doom and gloom" for ordinary Australians. This is a nonsense. The stability of this country's social system, and unrivalled infrastructure in a resource-rich nation, mean that it will always be more profitable for miners to invest here, rather than a nation which at any time might fall victim to coup or civil war. It is only fair that the huge profits enjoyed by the miners be taxed more fairly, to benefit the people whose resources they are mining.
I have never in all my 33 years here seen the country in better economic shape. Our dollar has been close to parity or better with the US currency for quite some time, making many US products affordable, and I have personally taken advantage of this a number of times ( and before you accuse me of not supporting local retailers, it was for items that I cannot get in this country). So when you read articles promoting this doom-and-gloom stuff, take some time to check the sources. "Institutes" with high-sound names like the Institute for Public Affairs, and the Murdoch press are usually behind them, and they are pure, unadulterated political propaganda, and as Mike commented earlier, ridiculous and yes, shameful. Quite how some people justify attempting to destroy the welfare of Australians in the quest for political power, and yet claim to be patriotic, escapes me.

GrahamL

16-12-2011, 07:22 AM

It surprising that article makes no mention on the impact of negitive gearing on housing affordability, the one big purchase many will make in there lives is not a cheap one ,yet

The idea that residential housing needs to be a tax haven for investors seems to be so entrenched in all sides of political
thinking removing it can't even be considered .

supernova1965

16-12-2011, 07:54 AM

Sorry but it is the free market that has caused all the financial trouble that the world has at present and a small amount of "government interference" is a nessesity to ensure that we don't keep going down this BUBBLE ECONOMY THINKING path which is unsustainable in a finite world where there are not the resources for eternal growth.

multiweb

16-12-2011, 08:21 AM

Not quite. It is the private banking system that was given too much lee-way. Free market is healthy. Anyway we're still doing real good downunder. Bit of debt but we'll pay it off thanks to our natural resources.

Barrykgerdes

16-12-2011, 08:36 AM

There is an old axiom that states "give credit where credit is due"

The problem with the free world economies is due to "giving credit where credit is not due"

Maybe a slightly different connotation but very much to the point.

Barry

casstony

16-12-2011, 08:47 AM

Do you think the GFC has gone away? The apparent improvement in GDP was a result of stimulus (ie.borrowing) particularly in the major economies while underlying economic conditions continue to worsen, the net result of which is that we're back in the same situation as 2008 but carrying more debt.

Excessive debt levels are the immediate problem and we will not see a healthy and stable world economy until after that is addressed, either in a responsible manner(unlikely) or in an uncontrolled collapse that causes default of the debt.

Earlier in the thread Mike challenged the naysayers (ie. me :) ) to read a particular link. I challenge everyone else to seek out the info I highlighted in post number 7 and see what you make of it. Edit: Barry's post above gets to the crux of the problem - we have been living beyond our means.

supernova1965

16-12-2011, 08:49 AM

I think that they have become one and the same banking just markets money and commodities yes free market is healthy until the anything goes and profit at all costs attitude takes over.

You only have to look at the abuse of the live cattle and sheep trade and how the care of the animals became secondary to the almighty dollar I am not singling out any individual but it is only one example of how things can get out of hand.

The current natural resources are finite and will not last forever and some of them coal and oil for instance will have to be abandoned before they are gone as they will harm our planet and make the planet a much less hospitable place to live.

We need to move to more infinite natural resources calling them renewable is inacurate in my opinion as using solar and wind does not actually deplete them and they are currently being largely wasted and with research they can become base load our future energy needs will be a combination of sources. We should be using fossil fuels like baby food until we grow up enough to move to adult food "ie" non poluting energy.

So many overlook the social and environomental wellbeing over the economic one lets face it if the planet is unhealthy the economy will be ruined.

I agree that we are doing well in Australia but that does not mean that things will stay that way without sound management into the future whoever is leading the nation, and ideology from whichever side it comes from is harmful to our future its time we faced the truth without ideology and do what is nessasary for our future.

casstony

16-12-2011, 09:04 AM

Capitalism and communism alone are both failures. A combination of both is needed where markets are allowed to function freely within certain boundaries (regulations) set by the government. Another essential component is that companies and individuals must be punished by the law if the break the rules. Unfortunately bankers and politicians have worked together to corrupt the system, watering down regulations designed to protect against the problems we're seeing today and rampant financial fraud has not been punished.

For decades governments have thought they can avoid recessions, but their interference has only accentuated the upside of the business cycle leading to bubbles in various markets. A free functioning market naturally includes periodic recessions which balance out the excesses of the previous upswing in the economy; people who took on too much debt or invested unwisely are wiped out and the economy can continue on from a healthy base; by avoiding the recession the rot is allowed to set in leading to bigger problems down the road.

AndrewJ

16-12-2011, 09:18 AM

If that was true, then why doesnt our govt open up our borders so that overseas doctors, lawyers, dentists, bankers, accountants, tradesmen, and just for fun politicians, ( ie those with relatively protected incomes ) can come here and practice "freely and without restriction" at a much lower price than we get charged currently.
Sure we may get some dodgy ones, but thats the "caveat emptor" risk for anything in a "free market".
I find it intriguing that some parts of our society ( retailers ) are forced to compete in an absolute free for all "via the net"
and others are protected.

That said
Oz is still a better place to live than most,

Andrew

jenchris

16-12-2011, 09:45 AM

The original article quote this about banana prices.

I'm sorry, bias that again for me...

Is that a communist remark, a typo or a particularly ignorant rant about a farmer making a decent living....

We don't import bananas because if we did, there'd be diseases we don't want and then we'd produce NO bananas.

Indonesia have just told us they are not goint to allow 520,000 live cattle into there next year.
Australia will only be allowed 280,000. So there's a nice government interference that has caused real damage.

Pork, most Bacon in Australia comes from Europe and most pork meat comes from North America - BECAUSE THEY'RE SUBSIDISED by their governments.

So much for Paul Keating's 'level playing field'

strongmanmike

16-12-2011, 10:02 AM

Hmm? So who was responsible for allwoing the animal abuse to continue unabatted?

If government inervention to stop animal cruelty has resulted in the country dishing out this cruelty to reduce their imports from us - too bad and congratulations to our government for doing what is right. Cattle farmers will survive quite nicely in our worlds best economy.

traveller

16-12-2011, 10:36 AM

Spot on Mike, government intervention IS necessary at times to reflect community attitude, level out the playing field and look after the sick and the vulnerable in society.
Unfortunately, our elected representatives are too busy with vested interests (unions, large companies alike), or too busy with study tours to Europe or their local massage parlours.
Of course, our very concentrated media ownership in this country does not help as their "news" are confied to gossip and D-listers.
For what it is worth, the current government is doing a bloody good job despite constant sniping by the media shock jocks, the crew led by Dr No, and the demands of the Greens and independents.
Whether you agree or disagree with the Carbon Tax, plain tobacco legislation and other landmark legislations, it's a credit to the government to negotiate and deliver policies for people in this country.
Now, lets get back to our scopes :lol:
Bo

KenGee

16-12-2011, 08:51 PM

Mike next time I'm in Newcastle I'll buy you a beer or two, and celibrate our great country and dark skies.

Stardrifter_WA

16-12-2011, 10:22 PM

I agree with most here that we are a lucky country....there is no disputing that. But is it as lucky as it once was :question:

However, I have to disagree with most, as I have steadily seen my standard of living drop, through no fault of my own. I can only go by what is happening in my neck of the woods.

I have had enormous difficulty in finding a full time job and this isn't something that I am used to. I have many qualifications and much experience, but unless you are young and pretty, forget it. :mad2:

I am still productive but get penalised for being so by tax. By the time I take tax and other factors into consideration, I am actually working for about $6.00/hour. Two years ago, I was getting $24/hour after tax, but that was in a full time job.

So yes, it is a lucky country, and we are better off than most, but some in our society are much luckier than others, it seems. I WAS luckier than I am now and I still work hard, when I get work, that is.

I know this much, if I had to pay rent, I definitely couldn't afford to live! So, what happened to fair and equitable distribution of wealth.

The mining tax is supposed to improve our lot by raising the "tax free" threshold from $6000 to $18,400 which is more equitable, but the Government looks like reneging on this now and will only reward those with Super, for those lucky enough to have some. And even if they don't and do raise it, the opposition will remove it, as they would rather look after big business and their profits instead. Make no mistake, I do believe companies should be able to make profits, but not at the expense of those less fortunate in our society.

So, yes, I do believe we are being ripped off! Yes, I do believe we are better off than other countries, but this is no excuse for the cost of living pressures we are now facing in this country due to Government waste and mismanagement.

And, furthermore, if we don't become more productive, we will continue to see our standard of living fall. We can't compete with countries that have low cost bases.

strongmanmike

16-12-2011, 11:42 PM

Bit of debt is a good thing, we have things and we are getting more things. Public money is meant to be used and invested in big things for our future, all our futures. You keep refering to the "current bunch" in government as clowns but in fact they are exactly the opposite they are investing in stuff, trying to make a difference and building stuff for all Australians. It may be imperfectly done at times sure but stuff is getting done and the country is holding steady and even progressing when most other countries are not, the big ticket items are the right direction 100% for sure :thumbsup: I for one sincerely hope we do not go back to the old crowd, now is the future and this is the way.

Hallelujah :lol:

marki

17-12-2011, 12:24 AM

Yes I must admit the Greens have done a fabulous job of running our country for the past 12 months or so. So Mike when are you planning to stand as the Labour fedral candidate of newcastle? :P;):D.

Mark

strongmanmike

17-12-2011, 12:40 AM

I am not really a green voter (although I like some of their policies) but I have to agree, unbeknownst to the easily fooled, the hung parliament is the best thing that ever happened to government in this country, especially with Julia at the helm, apart from the odd bit of questionable legislation here and there (common part of any governments term) it's largely the most balanced and effective governmental action we have ever seen :thumbsup:.

No, no plans to run for parliament :)...besides the current sitting members in this region are doing a great job, I'd not get a look in ;)

Mike

alan meehan

17-12-2011, 12:56 AM

Well said Trevor Keltik i couldt agree with you more.
AL

strongmanmike

17-12-2011, 01:22 AM

While individual cases vary of course, in relation to the orginal article refered to in this thread, I think the following article explains nicely the national hardship myth being perpetrated on us by vested interests :thumbsup:

Cost of living crisis (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2732638.html)

or if you can't be bothered reading it all this is the conclusion:

"Australia’s perceived cost of living crisis is a symptom of a broader sense of aspirational angst and cultural anxiety. We fear that our prosperity may someday vanish and we will be left unable to afford the comfortable lifestyles that most of us now enjoy. Such angst has amplified the cost of living issue to such an extent that it now obscures the fact. Of course, cost of living should not be dismissed out of hand, but it is important to take a step back and appreciate just how good we have it."

That'll do me, all's good :thumbsup:

Mike

Stardrifter_WA

17-12-2011, 02:37 AM

I feel much better now that I know I am do so wonderfully :question:

That article is a load of rubbish! It gets under my skin when I read stuff like that. It is all very well for those who are better off and can make those sort judgements, no doubt based on statistics, but it doesn't truly reflect the reality that many are suffering due to cost of living pressures.

bobson

17-12-2011, 03:24 PM

"The well fed one does not believe the hungry one!"

bob

Stardrifter_WA

17-12-2011, 04:33 PM

I am happy for your fortunes. May you never strike ill winds, for fortunes can change ever so quickly and it is only then that one becomes ever so aware to what is being paid out.

I am just grateful that I purchased all my equipment when times were good. What the future now holds is most uncertain. So, I am sorry if I do not see things as good as you. I did once!

bobson

17-12-2011, 04:54 PM

Peter,

I don't know how did you get this conclusion out of what I wrote? I am with you in all this!!

I am saying the ones who are not affected by this crisis don't believe the ones who are. Thus saying that well fed ones don't believe the hungry one.

I look at the world around me as a whole picture not just from my backyard. And believe me I experienced being jobless. Not getting to do what I went to school for just cos of age or accent I have. So all those who as soon as you mention something against the way things are they start singing national anthem they better look at themselves. And they love to say how we have freedom of speech but as long as you say what they like to hear.

cheers

Stardrifter_WA

17-12-2011, 05:05 PM

My apologies Bob, I misunderstood, sorry :)

Stardrifter_WA

17-12-2011, 05:09 PM

Poor communication and understanding on my part; comments taken out of context. Unfortunately, this sometimes happens with electronic communications. Cheers Peter

Paul Haese

19-12-2011, 12:37 AM

Sorry Mike but some sectors of the Australian economy are suffering. The building industry is where my income resides and here are some cold hard facts.

I am pricing work at pre 2006 prices and still in the middle of the prices. If I go lower I will be pricing work at below cost and that is just plain stupid.

There is not enough work available to all contractors and this has created the situation above where people with high debt are trying to win anything just for turn over. That turn over is just supporting the payment of interest. Those of us with no debt cannot win work because of this situation. There is low investment in the industry right now because of the world situation and since the GFC investment has been well below average. That crushes an industry.

I have personally won two jobs since November 2009. We have lived on savings and my wifes income since then. Fortunately we don't have a lot of debt, but I don't have an endless supply of savings either. I have a high savings ethic and saved during the good times, but those need to start happening again.

My story is just amongst many in the industry and there are people I know going to the wall. So while it may not seem to you that anything is amiss, please consider that there are many aspects of our economy that are currently suffering. If not nationally but certainly regionally. It is bad and will get worse in my industry in the next two years if things don't rapidly improve.

strongmanmike

19-12-2011, 07:41 AM

Sorry Paul but you have missed the point completely...and I don't think there is any further point trying to explain it again, if you didn't get it from what I have said you never will

All's good

Mike

Paul Haese

19-12-2011, 12:26 PM

No I got your point Mike, I just wanted to add everything has to be viewed at perspective. It is great living in Australia, but it is expensive to live here and if you have no money coming in it can be challenging. That is what is going on right now.

One key indicator or our economy is the building industry. If that is not firing the long term out look is not great. People keep thinking they live in this bubble that is isolated from Europe. The economics says we are already being affected by a recession. I remember the last one major one. Times have been good and that is a certainty but things will change and that you can rely on.

strongmanmike

19-12-2011, 12:39 PM

Have a look around you Paul, what do you see? Empty cupboards? Empty Fridge? Empty garage? Empty Loungeroom?, Empty Study?, empty observatory?, no property? empty educational qualifications...? I think not :) that is all I am saying. Whether you want to accept it or not, we are worrying about price rises in a landscape of very solid levels of consumerism.

When we think we are doing it tough and want to blame our governments, just think of the rest of the World first before complaining becasue looked at across the board we are doing the best on all levels :thumbsup:.

Mike