Takahashi Em200 or Losmandy G11 for ED80 or C11

[originaltrilogy]

I can buy a Takahashi EM200 or a losmandy G11+ Gemini + Upgraded worm for almost same money.

Will both be good with a large SCT, which would you buy?

Wanting to do photography of DSO most with ED80, some planets with SCT.

Will swap telescopes on and off, not two at once.

[issdaol]

A Losmandy G-11 is rated for instrument load up to 60 lbs.

A Takahashi EM200 is rated for instrument load up to 40 lbs.

If you are looking at a 14 inch Celestron then the OTA would be approximately 45 lbs.

Based purely on instrument load rating you would have to go with the G-11 option.

If you wanted a Takahashi Mount you need to step up to a EM400 which is rated for instrument load up to 89 lbs.

Obviously a EM400 will cost a fair bit more :(

Cheers

[icytailmark]

Definately go for the G11 ive had mine for 5 months now and very happy with it. It handles my Celestron C14 very nicely no problems at all.

[originaltrilogy]

I was C11 thinking for the EM200. People tell me the EM200 is conservative 40lbs and G11 is overconfident 60lbs, don't know if is true.
Is Em200 better tracking?

[issdaol]

You need to be careful when you hear these types of opinions.

For instance an EM200 will hold and handle a Takahashi Mewlon which is about 28lbs very comfortably with accessories.

However It will NOT handle my Takahashi Mewlon 300 which is approximately 57lbs.

Similarly I would not trust my Mewlon 300 on a G11 mount.

I used to have a C11 OTA some time ago and they are approximately 28lbs so the EM200 will handle this easily.

The EM200 has good tracking but as to a reliable comparison between both I have never owned a G11 so I cannot directly compare.

There may be other IIS members that have actually owned both to give a better judgment on a direct comparison for you.

Cheers

[Poita]

What is the portability of the EM200 like vs a EQ6 or G11?
My EQ6 weighs a ton and us a bit unweildy to move around.
The other thing is I've read a lot about the EM200 having a great polar scope and being really easy to align, but does that hold true for us southern hemisphere folks?
I've been wondering about the EM200 for my LX200R 10" SCT.

[tempestwizz]

I purchased a used EM200 about 5 years ago and have to admit that I am less than happy with it. I'm not sure of its history but it doesn't guide anywhere near as well as I had hoped. I may just have a bad one.

It has taken me quite a while to identify the issues. Initially the RA worm gear was too tight in spots, and would sieze especially in sub-zero weather and I had to re-adjust.
More recently I have discovered that the Dec motor has a huge amount of backlash. Not the worm gear, but the motor gear chain. At guiding rate, it takes about 5 seconds to change Dec to the reverse direction. Looking into this, I have learnt that it is not uncommon for the Taks as they have plastic gears which tend to wear. I am looking at replacing both motors to see if this will bring about sifgnificant improvement. But, even when replaced, I'm not sure what life to expect from them before wear becomes an issue again.
Not sure about the G11s- whether they have similar problems, but I would steer away from the Tak.
Cheers

[issdaol]

Hi Peter,

You need to remember that the Tak Mounts do not come with a inbuilt tripod.

You typically buy the Motor Drive, Mount Adapter and either the Wooden or Metal Tripod to suit.

Personally I reckon that the EM200 plus the Tak wooden tripod is stable and relatively easy to maneuver. Especially if separated.

I have the Tak Heavy Duty Metal Tripod (About $2000-2500 just for the tripod alone) to be excellent.

Comparatively the EM400 Drive Unit is a heavy beast but is still relatively easy for me to move around but too heavy for my wife to maneuver confidently. As a combined unit with the tripod it is maneuverable, but you would not want to go far.

The polar scope in both are great. For the EM200 I believe that you can get an updated polar scope fitted nowdays for Southern Hemisphere use if you have an older unit. Otherwise a new EM200 is setup for Southern Hemisphere usage.

Not sure what the comparative weight for a EM200 vs EQ6 as I have never used or owned an EQ6.

One thing to keep in mind is cost of EQ6 compared to Cost of EM200.

A new EQ6 with tripod is approx $2000.00
A new G11 + HD tripod is approx$5000.00
A new EM200 + HD Wooden tripod is approx $9000.00

Is the EM200 really worth the additional $7000.00??? and at $9000.00 you are getting close to Paramount MX pricing and many would go Paramount MX over EM200.

Much food for thought there :juggle:

Cheers

[Poita]

Ah, but 2nd hand, if the EM200 is available with wooden tripod for $3600, and the G11 with tripod and Ovision Worm is $3500 then it gets more interesting, hence my interest.
There are so many conflicting opinions on the EM200, many that say the G11 and EQ6 aren't even in the same league, to others saying don't touch the EM200 and definitely go with the G11, and others who maintain the EQ6 is 'close enough' anyway.

I was hoping someone who had owned at least two out of the three units would chip in with their experience. The report of plastic gears in the EM200 has me concerned!

I'm interested in something that is a little more portable and easier to polar align than the EQ6Pro, and would be great for Astrophotography with a decent sized refractor, but could also handle planetary work with my 10" LX200R.
I can't stretch to an AP900 or NJP or anything in that league though.

[gregbradley]

I would not worry about the plastic gears in the Tak. They no doubt also play a safety function with regards to a scope hitting the pier, they will go before your scope does!

I never found the gearing to be an issue with a Tak NJP mount which did not miss a beat for several years of wonderful use.

Tak is hard to beat. Low PE out of the box and simplicity of operation. Fast to setup and align. You are imaging or using it much faster.

Tak is right up there. EM200 would be limited only in its carrying capacity.

I doubt a G11 could match the Tak for quality of workmanship.
Also the Gemini system loved by many is not so loved by others. It is not particularly user friendly and compared to the Tak is very complex and is its own learning curve. But it does have some features. The Tak does not have the bells and whistles but does its job very well, simply and easily and reliably.

I can't recall anyone complaining about their Tak mounts. G11's are also good but I get the impression that like so many other astro products it needs to be upgraded to work properly (new worms, clutch knobs etc etc).

The Tak should need nothing.

Greg.

[TrevorW]

Can't fault the workmanship on my G11

I have the bigger motors and with the OPWB accuracy is up there with the best

Wouldn't call it overly portable though, as is heavy beast

[issdaol]

:) Second hand bargains are always good.

On specs alone:

EQ6 Pro is approximately 16kg
EM200 is approximately 16kg
G11 Head Unit is approximately 16kg
EQ6 Tripod is approx 7kg
EM200 Wood Tripod is approx 12kg
G11 HD Tripod is approximately 16kg

So overall the EQ6 should be actually lighter. However with the EM200 setup you can separate the mount from the tripod for easier relocations. You would need to check if the EQ6 Head and Tripod can be separated for easier portability.

As for the G11 the G11 head is the same weight as both the EM200 and EQ6. But the Losmandy HD tripod is the heaviest of all three.

Also you need to remember that the Tak mount does not come with a Synscan/Gemini controller so you need to supply your own Controller.

The EM200 and EM400 work extremely well with IPAD/IPHONE/IPAQ units running apps or a miniPc/Laptop running The Sky. But this represents more expense.

None of the mount manufacturers have made perfect mounts from day one and it has usually been a case of continual improvement. Also some units arrive on the doorstep perfect and others arrive less than perfect. A good example is one or two recent Paramount issues. This does not mean that any of these mounts are inherently bad. However things tend to get exaggerated in the retelling and sometimes opinions are made without full hands on knowledge of the options.

Evidence shows that there are many Tak, EQ and G11 owners out there that happy with their system.

Personally I have found the Tak gear to be extremely well made and every thing works out of the box without needing to do after-market upgrades.

I am sure that there are other IIS users that have owned 2 or at least all 3 of these units at some stage to be able to do a better real life comparison.


:)

[gregbradley]

Are you more concerned with portability?

The more useful comparison is the weight they can carry and what scope you want to mount on it.

The other critical measure is the size of the PE. The next is how smooth that PE is.

There was a site somewhere that showed measured PE for lots of different mounts. Keep in mind
its not only the size of the PE but its smoothness. Sudden,erratic sharp jumps could be disruptive to your
guiding even if small compared to smoother but similar peak to valley sizes.

I have no experience with EQ6 but it seems odd its in the comparison with relatively high end mounts. Like BMW, Honda and Hyundai.
I don't think its PE would be anyhere close to a Tak EM200 or a nicely tuned G11.

The good thing about a G11 is it probably has a higher weight capacity than the Tak, it has provision for PEC (the Tak does not and their view is it does not need it), and has an upgrade path so you can tweak it over time and the cost is spread out over time. That may be appealling.

$3600 for a 2nd hand EM200 seems cheap. What are they new? $8000?

Greg.

[Poita]

For me, portability and speed of setup is important, the biggest scope I'd be considering would be an FS128 or TSA120, along with camera gear.
It currently would be for my ED80.
My time is really limited and I now have to travel for dark skies.

[originaltrilogy]

Is anyone use C11 on EM200?

[gregbradley]

Speed of setup would have to favour the Tak although if you got really familiar with Gemini I suppose it would be 2nd nature. Its just more of a learning curve. But the Tak - 1 star synch and your go-tos work as long as your polar alignment is close is hard to beat for speed.

If you image in the same location each time you can polar align accurately using CCD drift alignment and then put a laser in the polar scope. Hopefully there is something nearby it will shine on. Mark that spot with something. Next time you setup in the same spot, shine the laser and adjust until it hits the same spot and you are done.5 minutes tops.

That's what I did for years with my NJP as I would take it home and use it there sometimes and the latitude was just slightly different.

Greg.

[Poita]

That is a great trick re the laser, would it work with an EQ6?

[gregbradley]

It would work with any scope with a polar scope. I was originally planning to mount a laser on the side of the mount so I could shine it on a nearby wall or tree or something. But I found it got it pretty accurate withe simply through the polar alignment scope as long as
you made sure it was square to the polar scope.

If you got the mounting brackets for a laser (I got some ages ago but never used it - pastic tubes with plastic tightening screws) you could mount them on the side of any mount.

Greg.

[bmitchell82]

My 2 bobs worth of opinion...

For people who know how to do polar alignment much the muchness. of any mount!

I can polar align my EQ6 as fast as my mate and his G11. We both use software to do the alignment for the SCP. (we are in the business of astro photography so we always have PC's). Its just as easy to use the polar scope in the EQ6 but you can do some little tricks that pull you into the ball park quickly once again experience wins hands down!

All of the mounts that you have specified split down into head mount and tripod.

To be honest you can get EQ6's for around the 1200 mark second hand and they can be tuned to produce very good results! Its a matter of sometimes its the user not the hardware!

For the sake of it all starting off with a realitively inexpensive low end mount can sometimes cause headaches but at the same time its forcing you to actually learn what is happening with your mount and how to pull them apart to actually fix them. So when you get to your high end mount after definately figuring out what it is you want to do and how dedicated you are to your hobby the hit of a 8k telescope mount will be nothing as you know for sure that you will use it and enjoy it!

I guess what im saying is that you have just stated that you are using a realitively small telescope and don't have plans (yet) of going any bigger than a small telescope. So if it was me look at the 3 pick the best cost but my priority list would go like this

G11
Tak
EQ6 (only because you have to know what your doing to get them singing)

Brendan.

Just for a bit of proof in the pudding here is some Halpha in less than sterling seeing conditions with 3hrs of 15min images shot on the one night using a 254mm newt that weighs in at 23kgs or because everybody keeps wanting to talk in imperical terms 51lb on a EQ6Pro. Like i said it can be done its just down to the user most times!

http://brendanmitchell.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/NGC3584-Ha-3hrs.jpg (http://brendanmitchell.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/NGC3584-Ha-3hrs.jpg)
Left click on the image to see up close

close to 4hrs of LRGB
http://brendanmitchell.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/NGC-6729-120_25_25_30.jpg
Left click on the image to see up close

[Poita]

How long would it take you to align your EQ6 ready for AP work (approximately)?

[bmitchell82]

10-15 min to be within 10-20 arc sec of the pole being a wee bit anal about it.

To set everything up from scratch being packed away in my car will generally take me about hour and 15 minutes to when I am lining up my first target and getting everything set for the run. Do remember i have alot of gear to setup it isn't just the mount then scope then we are away!

[Poita]

That is fairly quick, do you have a breakdown of your procedure?

[bmitchell82]

On my website under resources I have a guide but at the end of the day it's really to do with your gear and you get a workflow that suits you. And let me tell you it does take whole lot of time to learn! That's why i said experience is key don't be disappointed when you take 4hrs to polar align!

[Poita]

It takes me about an hour with my EQ6Pro, I got to try an EM200 last night (thanks Bruce!) and it took me about 20 minutes and I got a better result, and I had never seen one before.
It is definitely easier to setup for me, but I'll just have to keep plugging away at the EQ6 as the TAK mounts will be outside my price range for a while yet.
I downloaded your guide, I'll be giving it a go, it is a bit different and more streamlined to the way I'd been attempting it.
Thanks
-Peter

[issdaol]

Hi Peter,

The EM200 is pretty quick to setup and align.

Also regarding gearing material here is the specifications direct from takahashi:

Spec. EM-200 USD-3 EM-200 Temma-2 Jr EM-200 Temma-2
R.A. axis diameter. (material) 40 mm (bronze)
R.A. worm gear shaft diameter (material) 18 mm (iron)
R.A. gear diameter (material) 92 mm/180 teeth (bronze)
DEC. axis diameter (material) 40 mm (iron)
DEC. worm gear shaft diameter (material) 18 mm (brass)
DEC. gear diameter (material) 92 mm/180 teeth

Hope this helps :)

Cheers

[Poita]

Thanks for the info.

[Gerald Sargent]

Neither - look at the astrophysics Mach 1, a really superior piece of gear, regards Gerald.

[Poita]

I'd love one, I think they are out of my price range however.

[ReaPerMan]

I had no end of trouble following all sorts of guides. One night out with Brendan and Grahame and all was revealed! (no smutty inferences here). Since then Brendan has showed me a lot of shortcuts and I now swear by alignmaster and the setup that I was shown. It only takes me 20-30 Mins to have the EQ6 polar aligned within 20-30 Arc secs.

all the best

paul :thumbsup:

[bmitchell82]

I might get together with Grahame one of these weekends coming up with his little HD camera to show you the full set up from start to finish.

This is my basic work flow to set up

I get my south bearing (which i normally get stooged by some form of ferric interfearence but meh) Level the mount, place the head on, scope, focuser, OAG, counter weights, collimation check, cameras, cable routing, laptop, start maxim, connect PC to mount and cameras, rough focus of main camera, maximdl primary camera calibration, alignmaster calibration and subsequent adjustments, fine primary camera focus using FWHM, focus guide camera on OAG, slew to target, calibrate guider, frame object, last check on focus, pick guide star and set guider on while it is settling set up imaging run on object.

Its go time!

My guiding normally sits around the .3-1 pixel error (.5 - 1.0 arc seconds error) and a RMS of approximaetly .15 - .2 which basically means Round stars from a overmounted EQ6 and a moderate focal length with my normal setup.



All up that takes me about 1hr 15 minutes to be done and then off helping others and being social:)

[gregbradley]

That's quite low guide errors Brendan. You must have your mount nicely tuned.

Greg.

[bmitchell82]

Indeed greg the white turd has been polished to a gleeeeem that and OAG keep things under wraps!

[midnight]

I totally agree with this from Brendan.

This is a very good thread. I started out with a LXD55 and this thing was pretty basic - but - it was equatorial and had goto and had an RS232 connection. After a while, I got it automated and then auto guiding with Guidedog. I pulled it apart many times to improve its tracking etc.

I have since upgraded and truly now appreciate my G11 for the $ I spent.

In saying that though, my autoguiding appears spot on according to the guider but my DSLR images are still showing unacceptable drift. The drift is in one direction so it appears to be sag (the 40D is relatively heavy).

Are there any tips if an OAG is not an option at the moment. My guide scope is a Meade 80mm series 5000 (FL480mm) and main scope a SN 8" recently upgraded with a Moonlite focuser (FL 812mm). One note, when I drift align at the meridian, I can easy fix N/S drift by rotating the mount E/W but I am noticing E/W drift. Ie, I use a DBK41 in my ED80 and my star drifts in RA over a 10 minute period by about 2-3 star widths (if that makes sense).

Cheers,
Darrin...

[gregbradley]

Could be 2 things.

Flexure in your scope or guide scope or both.

Polar alignment is still off (the drift you mention).

I find you need to do several iterations of drift alignment as
you can get drift from the other axis showing up.

Tighten everything up as much as possible and do several iterations of drift alignment until the star does not drift.

Greg.

[bmitchell82]

Darrin,

thats why i moved to OAG, Flexure is your bane and will not leave you so you have 2 choices to spend dollars and bulk time trying to A. find it B. fix it. or you can get oag to work :) ive seen how much difference it makes.
:thumbsup: