AP160 scope

[gregbradley]

An Astrophysics 160 scope sold last night on Astromart for US$21,300.

What I found very odd is that a guy who was unrated in Astromart and has never posted any images or any post relating to astronomy bid the price up from $17300 to $21,200 and the final winner who does post got it for $21,300.

I bet he woke up this morning with buyers' remorse!

I am sure its a great scope but $21,300 would get you a new TEC160 fluorite triplet and a new Paramount PMX mount.

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

Ah... but it still wouldn't be a 6" AP ;)

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Errr...
No.
It would be a 6" TEC which is every bit as good! :D
I'm not sorry I bought (and sold) an AP155, but I wouldn't buy one again at the price I paid. :screwy:

[Peter Ward]

The latest HSV Commodore is probably a quicker car than, say a 17 year old Ferrari..... But wait 3-4 years and I bet the Fezza ( now 20+ years old ) will fetch more and still looks way more beautiful.

I suspect the same applies with AP optics :)

[OICURMT]

qft!

[Peter Ward]

I don't think it's foolish to part with currency for a thing of enduring value or that gives you joy. The rules of supply and demand simply apply.

I suspect the answer is also in the old Johnny Walker advert: Do you want to take home a Scotch you want to drink...or the one you rather pay for?

Cheap Scotch tastes like.... Well.... :D

[gregbradley]

I agree AP are awesome. I was considering buying the scope but when it was at $17,300 it was too rich for me.

Its also a tough question because I know how good my AP140 is - its really good and Roland's years of experience in making excellent imaging APOs shows through in every aspect of the scope.

Its a bit like a Tak FSQ106 in that you are pretty much guaranteed a good image using it.

However the differences between optics become very slight.

See the attached which is probably one of the only comparisons between AP optics and TEC optics. Roland and Yuri seem to be friends and respect each others work.

The following 2 images are with a TEC180 fluorite and an AP140.

At the same site, using the same camera (I think it was an Apogee U16M) of the same object for more or less the same exposure.

To me they are identical except the expected extra resolution of detail in the TEC180. I haven't explored the limits of the AP140 and I am sure it has some surprises in it.

http://www.pbase.com/gregbradley/image/115775756 TEC180 LRGB 20 10 10 10

http://www.pbase.com/gregbradley/image/115775760 AP140 LRGB40 10 20 10

Still I would have bought the AP160 if it hadn't gone through the roof.
It was also odd, as a guy who was unrated and new to Astromart with no posts, nor internet images of work or anything suddenly bids the price from $17300 up to $21200 and then does not go any higher right at the end and the winner wins by $100. What new person to astrophotography wants to spend $21,200 on their first scope? If he was a millionaire why wold he stop over $100? Odd, very odd.

Also the seller was involved in a really long thread on the Tak Uncensored Yahoo Group where he sold a guy called Dave a Tak Mewlon 300 which would not go to focus and there was all sorts of dramas including insurance payouts from UPS and odd things. So he may be totally fine but there was a scene associated with one of his deals just recently.

I think it highly unlikely that Roland will ever again make AP160's. I doubt he could get the glass. Yuri stopped making TEC160ED's about 4 months ago. He no longer makes TEC180FL this year as fluorite supply has stopped for now from Schott. Maybe next year if there is a Europe left producing!

Greg.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Simply because something is worth more doesn't make it better.
As a classic car buff who's had 2 Ferraris (246GTS & 328 GT), I can say, unequivocally that almost any Holden is a better car.
Assuming an Astronomer wants a telescope for Astronomy and not to squirrel away like a copy of Action Comics No.1, there is no way a 6" AP is better value than a 6" TEC.

I'll grant that APs build quality is probably just an 'nth' better than TECs, but not so much that one would notice any shortfall, even 20 years down the track.
If you want an AP for it's rarity or collectibility, fine. I collect first editions of books (American fiction - after a first of Faulkner's "Light in August" if anyone's got one!), but the contents aren't superior to re-prints despite costing 100 times as much.

Cetaris Parabis - if an AP160 is noticably better, optically, than a TEC FL 160 I'd be very surprised.

[Peter Ward]

This is just silly...and is this some form of psuedo intellectualism to now quote Latin etc. on IIS ?

So some guy paid a motza for an AP160. He clearly wanted one.

a) because they are *really * good and
b) AP aren't making any new ones (Yes, Greg you are correct)

Other guys have paid even more for Ferrari Dino's (aka 246's)....

but so far I haven't seen great auction results for Holden EK's 'cause they are a better car! :lol: ... Yep... sure...

...whatever floats your boat (avoid direct eye contact kids...no sudden movements...back away sloooowly... )

[gregbradley]

I think the guy who bought may also be a collector. He sold an unused AP155 an flattener just a few years ago. How rare would that have been.

Perhaps he sees it as a form of investment. After all its pretty hard to make a return on the stock market these days and will be for some time to come.

Perhaps he can sell it in 5 years for $30,000 and that is 10% p.a. A bit like fine wine.

Greg.

[strongmanmike]

Bah!! Still don't beat a 2 of a kind Starfire 152EDF with 4" FF :evil: be interesting to see how much that would collect at auction...of course we will never find out :whistle: I win :hi:

[gregbradley]

Whats that little black thing stuck onto the side of the Proline?

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

Nahh... you could pick up a EK Holden for way less. :rofl:

[Brundah1]

Nah! I'm with Mike, he knows what he's got and uses it!
Plus he even looks smart in thongs :thumbsup:

What's the point of hiding a fine instrument (of any brand) in a cupboard :screwy:

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Don't be tit Peter!
Latin and Greek along with a bit of French and German are regularly quoted on IIS.
I'm happy to dispense with either (all those greek letters denoting stars are entirely supurfluous and ativistic).
"Scorpius 1,2,3 etc." would work just as well.
My point was, as a collectible object, its perfectly OK to pay north of 21K for an AP scope.
But as purely an instument for observation or photography, it's ridiculous.
But, you missed my point entirely, not being even a 'psued' evidently.

[Peter Ward]

Ye gods a typo !! ( pseudo is indeed correct...my typing often gets dyslexic ) or "mea culpa" :P

I guess you missed mine.

I've tested quite a number of AP (and other refractors) and think AP have an edge on TEC, Taka and TMB.

AP images simply don't break down at stupid magnifications..they just run out of light.

With normal viewing it's subtle. Many would say the others are "just as good". I don't agree.

Might leave it at that.

[strongmanmike]

The USB interface, I got my CFW-2-7 on the cusp of the switch-over, they now have it inbuilt.

Mike

[Poita]

Latin is still second nature for some of us old farts that were force-fed it at school, nothing to do with my intellect though, psuedo or otherwise.
Pretty sure my family crest would have something like caput tuum in ano est under a banner featuring a confused looking lion :)

I can see a collector paying almost anything for whatever they want, but I reckon if I had the cash, I'd get a TEC180 over an AP160, and keep the change :)

[AndrewJ]

Gday Peter



If thats the case, can you help me out??
Pretty much everyone knows veni vidi vici
But i want to say
"I came, I saw, I left laughing"
The closest i have got
( from semi literate latinisters ) is veni vedi liqui risi
Is that close????
And if not, how would it be said?

Astronomical linkage is it would be nice to say it when seeing
a cheap scope with x10000 magnification in places like DSmith etc.

Andrew

[gregbradley]

I wouldn't sell my TEC180FL for an AP160 but I would sell my AP140 for an upgrade to an AP160. I think it would be a wonderful scope.

I wonder though how it performs really away from all the brand hype.

Basically an oiled triplet should perform better than an airspaced triplet as its only 2 air to glass surfaces compared to 6? But then I read the air spaced triplet has greater potential for colour correction.
Who knows? There aren't a lot of high quality astro images on the net with AP160's. Most are black and white quick shots rather than a 20 hour Cent A for example.

I also wonder how it compares with an AP155. Which is better? An AP155 owner would probably say the AP160 is on the basis of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill". But is it really? Numerous superb AP155 images on the net versus virtually nothing with an AP160 leaves the question unanswered and uncertain. One I know prefers the AP155.

Here are some examples of AP160 images:

http://creatorsview.com/pages/gallery.html

They seem very similar to what I get from my AP140 with the difference of just a bit more resolution. Much like the comparison I posted between my AP140 and TEC180. The main thing I see in the AP160 images is the stars seem very pinpoint in some of the images. It may be very good at this aspect of an image. Otherwise the detail, resolution etc are consistent with a 6 inch APO and would vary of course with seeing and processing skill. I see Marcus Davies TOA150 images are the equal if not better than a lot of these in terms of resolution and detail.

The bottom line is its an excellent telescope. Personal preference would dictate whether it is worth that sort of money. Certainly some of the competition is not far away.

Greg.

[TrevorW]

One should also ask what % of an image is the glass used to take it

or

seeing
camera
total hrs data
processing

you'd be hard to pick it

[bert]

How much?:P

[gregbradley]

True to a point. But high quality glass is noticeable when going that extra bit.

I know what you are saying and its true I think , that with APOs and really most scopes, the bulk of the extra dollars only gets you that last 25% or less. But it is a sweet 25%!!

Greg.

[Tom Davis]

I have used both the AP155 and the AP160 and I like the images produced with the AP155 better. Now, maybe I am biased because I own the AP155 but I really think it is the better scope. In fact, I will venture to say that whether with its 155TCC making it a lovely f/5.4, or at its native f/7, it is the ultimate imaging platform (4 inch focuser, 4" flattener). That is just me, but it is one amazing instrument. I really like the Honders -- I have serial number 001 -- with it's perfectly corrected huge FOV but if I was forced to sell either the AP155 or the Honders I'd sell the Honders. Let's pray that day never comes!!!

-Tom

[Tom Davis]

Not me. If I had an AP140 I'd never let it go. It is wonderfully versitile.

Tom

[gregbradley]

Thanks Tom for a rare insight into these amazing scopes. First hand data is hard to find.

Yes the AP140 is a nice scope. Its a scaled 155. Same tube.

Greg.