View Full Version here: : Fractal Universe
31-07-2011, 09:19 AM
The discussion elsewhere has had me looking at everything I can find on fractals... one of those things you have no idea as to how many facets until you do some research;)...mmm information can be sort of fractal:D
I came across a vid on utube with Carl Sagen which presents a confronting proposition that our Universe may be only an elementary particle in a much larger Universe and that larger Universe again only an elementary particle in a yet larger Universe...and so on...:eyepop:
I am sure if I suggested such it would not fly but the fact that Carl suggested it makes me wonder if such an idea has developed over the years:shrug:.
here is the link
31-07-2011, 09:36 AM
That's an old idea, even older than Sagan's espousing of it. It's very much like the old Chinese "turtle on a turtle on a turtle" cosmology. Much like those Russian dolls, one within another within another. It's actually rather funny, you know. You then have to wonder just where our "elementary particle" of an Universe is located in the larger scheme of things. I mean, are we part of some person's finger or the tip of their tongue?? Are we a part of some thrown away piece of paper or scrap food?? And are they, in turn, a part of something even larger still....like a cooked lobster meal on a gigantic dinner plate or a pile of pond scum??:):P
I mean, we might just be what's being flushed down a gigantic toilet....that would explain a lot of things:):P
31-07-2011, 09:46 AM
Looking at the world at the moment Carl I think I can suggest exactly what we are probably in...;)
Certainly when you seek to suggest the Universe is infinite the implication is a russian doll setup like Carl Sagen speculated upon.
31-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Some gigantic you, right at this very minute, might be typing out exactly the same words you have typed in this thread:):):P:P
31-07-2011, 10:08 AM
I think life was easier when one never thought about such things.
Still we are blessed that we can.
I fundamentally did not like the big bang theory because it required accepting concepts seemingly beyond belief and yet if we seek an alternative infinite Universe the propositions that unfold are even more dificult to imagine... but in that infinite/fractal universe I could accept the monkeys typing the works of Shakspeare easier than the prospect of larger and larger editions of me typing away...mmm it is all too much.
Still the realities of fractal structures so widespread raises a question I cant even propose other than...why is it so?
31-07-2011, 10:16 AM
Because fractals are the hallmark of chaotic processes. There is overwhelming evidence of fractals remaining from those processes.
The old idea of the purity of a single deterministic equation describing complex physical processes resulting in the structures evident in our universe is, and always was, a pure pipe-dream.
31-07-2011, 11:24 AM
But that's precisely what they expect to do with chaos and fractals. Develop a broad, overriding equation that through its application can define any natural (or unnatural) system you care to apply it to. That's what self similarity is all about. Scale invariance. Which means it applies in all cases. If a single deterministic equation is a pipe dream, then so it is such with chaos as well.
31-07-2011, 12:04 PM
Here ya go Carl … this IS an aspect worthy of consideration … this being because fractality may exist right down to the quantum level, and up to the opposite end of the scale. Almost no other theory or perspective bridges that scale expanse whilst displaying consistency.
Spacetime May Have Fractal Properties on a Quantum Scale (http://www.physorg.com/news157203574.html)
31-07-2011, 12:26 PM
Scientists discover quantum fingerprints of chaos (http://www.physorg.com/news174143570.html)
Note: Chaotic behaviours are displayed in classical deterministic systems now they're chasing evidence of chaos in quantum systems …
They go on to say they've revealed the signature of chaos which is related to entanglement …
31-07-2011, 12:28 PM
I'm pretty certain it does, but it has to be proven, still. There's a possibility for bridging the disparity between gravity and QM....figure out a fractalised, deterministic chaos version of both that allows one to seamlessly fit into the other....a law of fractal quantum gravity:):)
31-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Now, they'll have to repeat these experiments in order to falsify them. The fat lady hasn't sung quite yet:)
31-07-2011, 06:26 PM
If our universe is just a particle in a much larger universe, and that universe part of another much larger universe. Are there smaller universes that make up us, or are we the bottom of the barrel? Or are we part of a bottom of a barrel, a very deep infinate barrel of barrels?
01-08-2011, 12:36 AM
Possibly. There'd be no reason for there not to be. We might not be at or near the bottom of the barrel or a barrel, but we're most likely a barrel of Vat 69:):P
03-08-2011, 08:03 PM
An essential part of fractals and chaos is feedback while following a simple reiterative rule to generate the time dependant order.
In quantum mechanics there can be no feedback as how does the system get feed back from an indeterminate state. Quantum entanglement can be the ONLY form of feedback at the quantum level!
Simple really I think?!!!
04-08-2011, 09:36 PM
Yes but feedback would come from a determinate state and it becomes a determinate state at the point it can provide feedback.
or at least that is what the garbo told me;)
05-08-2011, 09:37 AM
In these experiments, the fractal shows up in the phase space maps for different induced 'kick strengths', which is related to the decoherence rate, (or degree of entanglement), as the transition from quantum to classical behaviours occurs.
A quantum mechanical system can still be viewed as interacting with the surrounding environment via entanglement, and can be shown to be sensitive to the degree of externally imposed changes.
The feedback mechanism occurs during the transition.
05-08-2011, 10:11 AM
I often like to think that the galaxies themselves are the atoms or molecules in a bigger universe. Given that our view of the galaxies around us is that they moving away and our local universe is expanding, maybe we are part of some explosive process in the bigger universe.
Now imagine if our galaxy 'atom' was part of some solid structure in the bigger universe. We would be surrounded a regular lattice of other galaxy 'atoms'.
05-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Someone lit the fuse to our celestial dynamite stick:):P
05-08-2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah i have thought of that as well , but imagine if that solid structure was also apart of a another solid structure & so on, i feel that i can get my head around this when associated with the idea of an infinite universe as apposed to an infinite single universe,
just something i had thought about
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