Choice of first scope

[yagon]

I'm new to astronomy. I currently use my un-aided eyes and a pair of cheap binoculars. I've now decided to buy my first scope :) , and I'd like to hear this forum's views on the right choice for me.

I've a budget of about $1,000 to $1,500. Small size is important for me because of portability and storage issues. I'd like an alround scope, but I like the idea of a scope that can also be used for terrestrial purposes. Most of my viewing will be in light-polluted Sydney, with occasional country trips.

I understand that buying any scope is a game of trading compromises, but because of my limited experience, it is difficult for me to assess which compromise to make for a first scope. :confuse3:

Based on my research to date, these are my thoughts on realistic options and their potential compromises:

1. 100mm to 120mm achromatic refractor. Chromatic aberration? Size?
2. 80mm apochromatic refractor. Aperture?
3. 127mm or 150mm maksutov-cassegrain. Narrow field of view? Cool-down time?

I've not included a big dob because of portability and storage issues.

What are the forum's views on what is the best scope for my requirements? :help:

[lost_in_space]

I would be looking at something like the Willams Optics Zenithstar 80 or the cheaper Orion ED80, and spend the balance of the budget on a good AltAz mount which will be ok for astro and terrestrial use, a good diagonal erecting prism and some quality EP's

[Miaplacidus]

Hi Yagon,

You seem to have identified all the issues. No doubt people will chime in with some good, sensible suggestions. However, something a bit left field that you might nonetheless want to consider (especially if you already have a tripod) is a bigger pair of astro binocs for wide field viewing, and something like Orion's 150mm mak-cass for planets, etc (OTA $999 from Bintel). Neither would take up much room.

I'll be interested to read other responses.

Cheers,

Brian.

PS Which Maton?

[Muddy Diver]

Yagon

I cant vouch for the Celestron Nexstar 4GT over others as I'm a newbie also. But it seems to fit your budget and scope. I am also coping with light pollution in Menai but for size, ease and speed of set up you cant go to wrong. The tracking is not fantastic but for your money at least you have some, with a compterised goto database to boot. Take a look at the link below.

P.S. these are selling in the Australian Geographic shops at the moment. Or were.

http://www.celestron.com/prod_pgs/tel/nx4gt.htm

Good luck

Barry

[janoskiss]

Yagon, if you have not seen an 8" Dob first hand you should go to Bintel and check one out because it will show you a hell of a lot more than any of the other options you are considering. Even 6" GS Dob will (but only Andrews have those). They are both quite portable and will cost a fraction of your budget. Spend the rest on good eyepieces. :)

But if you must have an even more compact scope, the ED80 from MyAstroshop on an AZ3 or EQ5 mount would be very nice. The ED80 is the best of the false-colour-free refractors. And leaves you plenty of change for both must and nice-to have accessories.

If you are willing to put up with some false colour, buy the biggest achromat you can afford/manage from AOE.

Otherwise a 5" Mak + AZ3 or EQ5, or 6" Mak + EQ5. The 6" + EQ5 will leave little or no change for eyepieces and other accessories.

Dob is where my heart is though, otherwise I'd go a 5 or 6" Mak.

[yagon]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I must say that I am leaning towards the quality 80mm scope, probably the Skywatcher ED80 or similar.

A good 80mm scope would be a scope that I could keep for a long time: I have noticed that a lot of experienced astronomers have a good 80mm refractor in their quiver of scopes. I typically have a preferance for simple but good quality equipment.

From my reading, a good 80mm scope would provide excellent rich-field views, good moon and planetary viewing, but would be limited for deep sky viewing due to the small aperture. I would always have the option to supplement it later with a big compound scope if I really get passionate about this hobby. I think I would use an 80mm scope a lot.

Can anyone comment on the aperture limitations of an 80mm scope? What limitations will this place on me?

[yagon]

PS

My maton is an early 90s 'Australian' model. It's made from Australian timber (QLD Maple being the main), and has a great warm tone, more mid-rangeish that a traditional acoustic guitar. It's a keeper: I hope I'll be playing this guitar in 50 years from now, even though it's got dings and bite marks from my dog!

I am currently selling all my electrical guitar equipment: my rock'n'roll days are over, and I need to money to buy the scope!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7391674572&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

[janoskiss]

Yes, the ED80 is an excellent scope, and depending on the viewing/astro-photographing habits you develop, you might keep it for good even if you get a bigger scope, because a bigger scope will never give you views as wide ("rich-field") as the ED80 can. I used to own one of these scopes and I was amazed how much an 80mm scope could show me and how good the image quality was.

But you are right that it would be lacking on deep sky, and also on planets, because of lack of aperture. But it is probably as good a scope as you can get at 80mm and it is better value now than ever before. If you decide to go for it, try and get the MyAstroshop $549 special with the tube rings and dovetail mounting plate. Get an AZ3 or Vixen Porta (better!) mount for it, if you want max portability, or an EQ5 if you have a reason to want an EQ.

You will also need a diagonal and some good eyepieces. Given your $1500 budget, the ED80 is probably your best choice if you want a most complete quality setup, without having to skimp on eyepieces and/or other accessories.

...
But check out a dob first. :poke: :P (Sorry, I can't help myself. I'm hooked. :love: )

[ausastronomer]

Yagon/Barry

FWIW the LAST thing I would recommend is buying a telescope from a store like Dyck Smith, Tandy, K-Mart, Big W, or Australian Geographic and for that matter 98% of camera stores worldwide, for the simple reason the staff working in those stores haven't the foggiest idea what they are selling, when it comes to telescopes and astronomy related equipment and accesories.

If you want to buy a telescope buy it from a store, either shopfront or online, that specialises in telescopes, accesories and astronomy related equipment. There are enough of them around and you will not pay any extra in $$$$ terms and the support service and advice will be infinitely superior.

Three reliable dealers with competitive prices in Sydney are:-

Binocular and Telescope Shop www.bintelshop.com.au

My Astro Shop www.myastroshop.com.au

Andrews Communications http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm

with my preference being the 1st two, in terms of advice and after sales service. Both of these dealers are owned and staffed by very experienced astronomers

My recommendation based on the parameters you have specified would be the Skywatcher ED80 (APO) which My Astro Shop had on special for $499 (or thereabouts) including rings and dovetail plate and then mounting that on a good Alt/AZ mount. I think that special has finished but all the 3 stores I have mentioned can supply the scope and mount and do you a good deal on it, enough change out of $1500 for a couple of better quality eyepieces and some astronomy books and charts.

CS-John B

[acropolite]

Correction there, My Astro shop doesn't have any stock of the ED80, but I managed to get one from Andrews they're $549 including rings. I would recommend the same as JohnB as that OTA will serve you very well if you decide to persue astrophotography.

[mickoking]

I would reccomend a 80mm ED refractor for the simple reason is that you will want to keep it if and/or when you move upto a larger scope. I presently have 3 'scopes in my quiver all with a different purpose. From light polluted Sydney Double stars, Star clusters, planets and the moon would be fine. The advantage with a compact 80mm refractor is you can easily transport it to a dark sky sight no sweat when the need arises. Also don't dismiss something like a 200mm (8") Dob. They are popular on this forum and as a previous owner of that sized 'scope I can vouch for how much stuff you can see thru them, they are also reasonably portable.

Astronomy is a fun hobby and even a lifestyle :) don't worry too much about equipment and don't forget ask heaps of questions.

Cheers :cheers:

[[1ponders]]

If your budget is up to $1500 why not get both an 80 on an Alt/Az and and 8" Dob :D

Saxon 80 ED approx 550
GS -680 w/crayford 500
Az3 mount 240

Big aperture scope for home use with quality refractor to take to the country. :)
Mind you that doen't leave you much for eyepieces:confuse3:

[janoskiss]

Good thinking Paul! AZ3 is just $179 from AOE, last time I checked!
The Dob will also come with eyepieces you can use in both scopes.

[[1ponders]]

Sweet :D If I didn't have an ED80 already I'd go for that package myself :lol:

[Striker]

I'll keep it short... ED80

[Nightshift]

I'll keep it short too, dont buy a GS dob, they are poorly manufactured.

[janoskiss]

What dob would you recommend instead, Nightshift?

[Nightshift]

I only own a GSO dob so I can't make a recommendation on what to buy, only on what not to buy, the GSO rusted instantly, the mirror coating is average to say the least, the dob mount is chipboard and absorbs moisture, the AZ mount is sloppy and hard to use, requires modification the day you pick it up. I have spent many dollars and hours re-manufacturing it to a point that I am now happy (except with the rust) but sure can not give the unit any praise.

[dhumpie]

Funny that you (Nightshift) have so many problems with your GS dob. I have had mine since a week before X-Mas and don't have any of the problems you mentioned. And all the reviews out there say they are an excellent value. As pertaining to the question about 80mm scopes, I love my Orion 80ST as a quick look scope but I would not recommend any 80mm scope no matter how well made as an only scope. 80mm is just 80mm and is very very limited in my opinion. If you can swing it I start with at least a 100mm scope (100ED???). But your best bet would be a 6 or 8 inch dob. Best bang for the buck and not even that hard to handle (the 6 incher can be carried all setup in one sitting). Alternatively you could get a GS 6" f/5 EQ for $499 from Andrew's and have money left over for tracking motors, etc. Those are highly portable too. I used to observe from my apartment balcony with just such a scope. Trust me if you want detail in DSO's and planets, go 100mm and above for refractors and 6" and above for reflectors.

Darren

[ausastronomer]

Nightshift,

Several thousand people worldwide disagree with you.

Let me also say that compared to what was previously available, the GSO dobs and those from Synta as well are an enormous improvement quality wise, both optical and mechanical from those produced in past years. In actual fact, for the price, amateur astronomers have never been able to buy such a good quality telescope for such a small outlay. You can currently buy a 10" GSO dob which gives good performance for the equivalent of the average workers weekly pay (I earn much less than average so I gotta save up for 2 weeks for a 10" dobbie). 30 years ago a 6" primary mirror alone cost the equivalent of a months pay, over $400. We can turn the clock forward a little to the dobs sold a decade ago, which came with no finder, no eyepieces, a mount that was not even close to orthagonal (as they were not CNC cut), a chipboard mirror cell with poor ventilation that took 4 hours or more for the primary mirror to cool, a secondary mirror support that was exceptionally difficult to adjust and a focuser that was garbage.

No the current GS scopes are not as good as a premium telescope, they are also not a premium price. What they offer is exceptional value for money.

Yagon,

If you want to buy a GS scope they come highly recommended from me at least in terms of the performance level in relation to cost.

CS-John B

[ving]

also a GS dob owner i can recommend them. I have had my 8" since early 2004 and it has zero rust, and all movements are smooth and easy. the altitude bearing has 2 springs for tention. I use 1 spring most of the time and change to 2 springs when carrying a heavy weight. never overbalances and never sticky. I have done no mods what so ever to the altitude. as for azimuth, you can do a zero cost mod (milk bottle washers) or get some ez-sliders or other furniture sliders to help...

optically my GS 8" is great for my needs. I have seen more detail in my 8" f/6 than i ever thought i would :)

[janoskiss]

Nightshift, I appreciate everything you are saying, as these GS (and I'm sure Synta too) Dobs are a cost/quality compromise. Also, it sounds like you got especially unlucky with the OTA (probably had a bit of surface rust before it was painted). But the optics is very capable and the scopes are usable out of the box, and can be made even better with a few tweaks. As far as I know there is nothing better available until you start looking at the Obsession style Dobs which cost around $5000+ for a 12.5".

The smartest thing Anthony at Bintel Melbourne said to me was that if you want a no compromise Dob, you build it yourself, because every off-the-shelf big scope is going to have its problems that will need user-tweaking. Failing that, get someone else (like that truss scope guy in North Vic, I forget his name) to custom build one for $$$.

[barees63]

FWIW, My 10" GSO Dob also has the rust problems as I may have mentioned a few times here but I suspect this may have more of a bad batch than a standard feature.. as far as the mount is concerned I haven't noticed any issue with water absorbtion or general build quality, I haven't done any mods to either Alt or Az (mine came with the teflon pads I believe earlier models may have had a dodgy roller bearing for the Az) and although the movement may not be "silky smooth" I find it perfectly useable.. The vast majority of comments I have read about GSO mirror quality are positive, especially for the money.. I certainly enjoy the views thru mine and suspect you would have to be a real expert to find much fault.. certainly not a problem for a first scope. The only things I would suggest is to buy it from a dealer who will center-spot the primary and demonstrate collimation for you - this will greatly enhance your initial enjoyment of the scope and maybe ask them whether they will offer some kind of rust guarantee? All things considered you won't go wrong with a GSO dob..

Bruce

[mickoking]

My GS Dob is fine. I reccomend them :cool: without hesitation.

[Nightshift]

There you have it, two opposing opinions, if I had $1000 to spend again on a DOB it sure would not be a GSO, I got a scope I reckon should have sold for no more than $500.00. I am happy to say "I told you so" though.

[janoskiss]

So what scope would you buy with a $1000 if not a GS Dob? Synta Dob? DIY Dob?

[cjmarsh81]

10" Skywatcher Dob. Got mine for $750. Love it. Still has a chipboard base (I haven't seen one that doesn't). I have read reviews on the internet that all say rust is a problem with a GSO. Have not read any about the skywatcher or saxon (they are the same with different badges.)

[ausastronomer]

Rust is only a problem on a limited run of GSO dobs. The silver ones which were not properly painted with metal primer before hte silver was applied. My GSO dob is one of the early ones, it is black, it is over 5 yrs old, it has been rained upon, dewed upon, spat at and it does not have 1 spot of rust on the scope anywhere. In addition both mirrors still have the original coatings and the scope still supplies superb views.

I sympathise with those people that have the silver scopes that do have rust issues. That's also easily fixed by the way with 2 hours work and $30 worth of metal primer and spray enamel. No you shouldn't have to repaint the scope but its not a major issue and as far as I am aware the issue has now been resolved.

CS-John B

[yagon]

thanks for all the great feedback - i plan to place an order for a 80ED today.

Can anyone recommend some eyepieces to go with it?

I am thinking:
42mm
8mm
2x barlow

this would give me magnifications of: 14, 29, 75 and 150

[janoskiss]

Nice buy! You can't go wrong with the ED80.

42mm Superview might be good for very wide true field. Don't buy anything cheaper than this at this focal length. Don't expect it to work in a barlow, but maybe :shrug: (30mm does). Long barrel version might have trouble reaching focus.

Assuming you cannot afford Pentaxes, Panoptics, and Naglers, but want wide FOV, I'd go with:

21mm and 13mm Stratus (or Hyperion) for clusters and largish DSOs.
8mm Stratus (or Hyperion) for mid-high mag.
Good 2" 2x barlow for more power and versatility.
Quirk with Stratus: you need a diag and barlow with no compression ring (just locking screws), otherwise you'll need to use them in 1.25" mode.
Downside of this package is weight.
If you are still power-hungry (scope can do 240x comfortably though 200x is probably the highest useful mag), a cheap way to get there is with a 2-3" barrel extender in the 2" barlow.

The shorter FL Superviews might work too, and they are cheap. But I'd be wary. Try and try again before you buy.

HD orthos worked well for me in this scope too, but they are not newbie/public friendly. "Can't see anything" is the typical response. Stratus is much easier to look through.

[yagon]

hmmm ... i'm not sure i know enough about eyepieces to be educated on which to buy

what is stratus - a brand or a design?

[janoskiss]

Orion Stratus. You can get them from the States, or hopefully through Bintel soon for $180 a pop. Baader Hyperion is a very similar eyepiece (EP), you can get them from OS for under $200 (locally for $265 from York, but maybe you can haggle).

Sorry, I kind of forgot this is your first scope (despite the title of the thread screaming out first scope :doh: ) and thought I'd just throw in what I personally think would be the best value and most versatile set.

What sort of mount are you putting the scope on? How much are you willing to spend on EPs?

[yagon]

OK, here are my thoughts on what I'll buy:

Saxon/Skywatcher 80ED refractor $549
AZ2 mount $199
90deg 2" x 2" erecting diagonal $99
Finderscope 8x50 90deg $99
TOTAL ~$950

All the above prices are based on the Andrew's website and ads.

So I'd like to spend about $300 or $400 on EPs, barlows, filters, and the other bits and pieces that I'll need. However, in the spirit of keeping it a simple as possible, I'd like to keep the number of EPs to 3 or maybe 4, including a barlow. I'd like to have a wide field view, as well as be able to take the scope up to at least 150x.

What are your thoughts on what I should get?

[yagon]

PS could this scope really get to 200x?

[ving]

mine is silver bought in 2004 and has none, so it seems its a run within the silver run that has the problem...

ED80! sounds like you will have a great scope sir! :D

[janoskiss]

Yagon, I'd recommend you go with AOE for all the accessories (and maybe the scope too). Going by the prices you have quoted, it will save you quite a few $ and the AOE guys are very helpful and seem knowledgeable about astronomy gear. So that leaves you with $400-$450 for EPs. Hmm not sure... Better call in the experts. aus John?

btw, the mount you want is AZ3 not AZ2. $179 last time I checked.

and yes 200x no probs.

[Striker]

Not being much of a visual observer atm....but I do have an ED80....for most visuals the eyepieces I would be looking at around the 6-10mm you will use most of the time....giving you a magnification of 60 -100X.

Anyhing smaller then a 6mm you may find uncomfortable eye relief unless you go for the Barlowed Eyepieces for example like the Naglers Pentax or Meade UW and others.

[yagon]

Thanks for the feedback. Are there any other accessories that I should get at this stage, such as filters?

[ving]

wouldnt worry bout filters...3 EPs and a barlow should do ya :)

.... oh and sky maps, red light, chair, etc.

[yagon]

I have just send an order via email to AOE - I can't wait to get it! :cool:

Thanks for everyone's assistance.:)

[Miaplacidus]

If it doesn't come with a finder, I'd get a red dot finder (or a green laser).

Good choice,

Brian.

[janoskiss]

Yagon, I had a think about eyepiece (EP) options for the ED80. (I'm actually thinking about re-aqcuiring one, but the skies around here just don't justify it. But once I move... who knows ... anyhoo...)

The ED80 is best at getting wide views of deep sky objects (DSOs), esp. star clusters and brighter nebulae. Under dark skies it's better than a 8-10" Dob under light polluted suburban skies. Although it can give surprisingly good high power views of planets too, the 80mm aperture limits its use in this respect (though its performance is very impressive for 80mm!). For star clusters I feel you need a good coverage of the mid-to-low power range.

I would be partial to wide or semi-wide angle EPs with the ED80. Must have is a long focal length 2" EP for the widest true field of view (FOV). The 42mm Superview is probably one of the best choices on your budget. Make sure it reaches focus and that you can return it if it does not. (my 30mm had trouble, but it was the long barrel version)

Here are a couple of recommendations from someone who does not really know:

Budget wide field kit:
42mm, 20, 15, 10mm Superviews
GS ED 2" barlow (try myastroshop for this one)

Best quality for buck (semi-) wide field kit:
42mm Superview
14, 9mm Meade 5000 Plossls
GS ED 2" barlow

... and eventually a 6-7mm EP for pushing the power to the limit in the barlow (maybe 6mm Burgess planetary or Vixen LV).

I don't know how well the 1.25" 10-20mm superviews would work. They are reported to be poorer performers than the 2" superviews in fast scopes. But the ED80 is not very fast, though it is not as slow as SCTs either. (btw: Scope 'speed' = f-number = focal length / aperture = 7.5 for the ED80.) Research and get more experienced members' opinions.

I don't know how good the ED barlows are either, but the normal GS 2" is said to be allright, so the ED (= less false colour) should be good. But you never know till you try...

Meade 5000 plossls seem very nice, though I only tried them briefly. Longer eye relief than a normal plossl and wider and a much nicer 60 degree FOV. Try to buy 2nd hand if possible. (I have a 14mm on the way from Astropolak, and I will probably pass on the bargain to someone else. I just want it for long enough to be able to critically assess performance because I'm interested in other FLs in this range.)

If the choices are all too confusing, and you just want something inexpensive to begin with, buy the 42mm superview and a couple of GS plossls: 20mm and 12mm, or 15mm and 9mm. (get AOE to match Andrews' price on the plossls $39 ea).

PS. I'll second the 1x red dot finder. They cost under $US20. Donno how much they are here, probably too much. Ask AOE, they might have them even though it's not on the website.

[mickoking]

G,day Yagon,

I have an 80mm short tube refractor and the eyepieces I use the most are a 20mm superview (wide angle), 16mm plossl and 9.7mm plossl. But all observers are different and they have certain observing prefrences (I'm 90% deep sky). What I would reccomend as some others have previously mentioned is 3 eyepieces. Low power 20mm and above, Medium power 10-20mm and high power below 10mm. Some people also like Barlow lenses so that might be something to consider as well?

Another thing about eyepieces is they are your companions what ever telescope you own. I have still got my old style 13mm Nagler (hand grenade) I purchased 15 years ago with my first serious telescope. So money spent on a good eyepiece is money well spent, eyepieces are forever ;)

[Starkler]

I very much agree.



I dont think I agree with that.
Having a greater aperture allows you to use a higher magnification without running out of light. You cant go very high in the ed80 before the views start getting very dim. FWIW, I find the ed80 of very little use in suburban skies unfortunately.

[Miaplacidus]

Hi Yagon,

I think you mentioned that you wanted something for terrestial use, so perhaps a (2-inch) 45 degree erect image diagonal should be on your list. With that, I find the Andrews 30mm 2-inch UWA eyepiece is simply brilliant for daytime use.

Cheers,

Brian.

[janoskiss]

You are right, Geoff. I spoke in haste. My comments about ED80 under dark sky bettering Dobs under light polluted sky are only valid in the limited context of wide views of large DSOs (e.g., wide views of 47tuc, omega cent, orion neb). On planets, on small but relatively bright clusters, and on any greater than approx 80x views of the heavens, the Dobs will rule, dark sky or not...

I guess by "better" I meant "more entertaining" in my earlier post. To rephrase: I'd rather be under mag 6.5 skies with an ED80 than under mag 4 skies with a 10" Dob.