More Anti Science Hysteria

[sjastro]

Given the recent issues in the Relativity thread......
Nothing compares to this :rofl::rofl:

It makes you wonder how people develop such attitudes.

http://www.youstupidrelativist.com/

Enjoy

Steven

[Zaps]

"Thank you for visiting my homepage! Love, Fritz Zwicky."

[CraigS]

I'm not absolutely certain, (so this post maybe a little hasty), but I think a poster from a certain site who frequently quotes Gaede, was banned as a result of disclosing Gaede's background. Ie: Gaede being respected by the inhabitants of that particular realm.

I'll have to check my facts further .. will get back ..

Cheers

[mithrandir]

The pixies a lot of nut cases are off with would not want anything to do with this loony.

[sjastro]

I think I know what you mean.
Imagine having such criminal ideas.

Regards

Steven

[sjastro]

Here we go Bill Gaude's "resume".

Thirty three months in jail.
I'm impressed.::lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gaede

[avandonk]

I do not find it strange at all. It is called being delusional. Ramachandran a neurophysiologist had a patient who believed he was dead! No logical argument would change his mind. This chap could very quickly see that other delusional people were delusional but could not see that his assertion that he was dead was at all a problem. Reminds me of all the deniers I have met.

I personally know someone who makes elaborate 'writings' in technicolour and claims it is the word of god. It looks more like gibberish than the rantings of this bloke. Although it is all gibberish from both.

The scary thing is this delusional twit is calling for the death of all people that disagree with him. This is nasty stuff and I am sure illegal in some jurisdictions.

The human mind is a wondrous thing but when it goes wrong it does so spectacularly.

I fear the ones that are not obvious!

Bert

[sjastro]

Bert,

Going by the Wikipedia article a court of law didn't find him crazy which is even more of a concern.

Regards

Steven

[avandonk]

I may have said this before Steven but we had three sayings at CSIRO

If you are doubting your own sanity you are doing fine!

If you remembered what you forgot then you are still fine!

I can't remember the third......

UUUUHHH


Bert

[renormalised]

That site is the work of a lunatic. Not only delusional, but completely bereft of any sense of reality. The fact that people like this can get away with what they do and make it public on the net is criminal in itself. There's always something to say for free speech and the right to be heard, but when something as twisted as this is allowed to get away with what it does, then you have to wonder about the ethics of the people who allow it to be published...let alone the completely sick joke that site really is. A sick joke, but one that's potentially dangerous.

[avandonk]

I find every religious site just as ridiculous. As long as they do not advocate death to non believers I do not care. They can get lost in their delusions.

If this upsets any religious people here then I hope you think for yourselves for once. Do not be led by idiots passing themselves off as men of god.

I have great respect for real people who help their fellow man even if they are deluded.

I have no respect for people who exploit their fellow man even under the guise of some sort of organised religion.

If I have offended anyone I am not sorry!

When morons who think that their god absolves them from any rational criticism from non believers such as me they are even more deluded than I thought.

Yes that is correct complain!

I demand equal rights for my beliefs! Is that not what you devil dodgers demand!

Bert

[xelasnave]

There are heaps of nutter sites I try to visit all I can just to see how others go on...there is a flat world site did you know.

But this chap under discussion is a little nasty in his approach.
Even if someone disagrees should not mean they should not respect the other view point. I found the lack of respect unfortunate.
I do think you have to filter out so much it is probably not worth really worrying about such folk.
alex

[bojan]

Perhaps he is only joking ??
Nope.. he seem to be serious... in his total anti-everything and anything.
Or he is just an extreme example of Hoagland-type people, trying to cash-in something from niche markets ? That would explain a lot..

Well guys, this is the era of internet. Plain and simple.
Exhibitionists like that existed before (I used to know couple of them myself) but because of internet, today they have a lot easier job to get their 1 second of "fame". And it will be even easier for them in the future.
BUT - is also easier for "straight" scientist to obtain the same (if not much wider) exposure.
We should not worry about those clowns, really.

[xelasnave]

I have said many times as a joke that if one were to make money in science ones chances are greatly enhanced as a crack pot because you introduce entertainment ... even presenting legitimate science takes on an entertainment form in my view...also to be noticed folk often use confrontation ..well here we are drawn in by his confrontation and crackpot projection but he is wining because we have observed him and now is part of our universe...I think I will go to the flat earth site to observe humans ...
alex

[CraigS]

Huh ?

Cheers

[bojan]

Because it is obvous he is a clown, and as Alex mentioned, he is after exposure and cash-in.

However, what can you do about this?
If you put up a fight, accepting his style, the result is pretty obvious - he will win because he is way better in business of insulting people than you will ever be ( remember - he is a professional in this field and you are not).

What you can do is to ignore him (and deny him acknowledgement of his existence, something he is desperately seeking), and to go on with what you already do: patient education of people and popularisation of science, step by step, in your free time (because you are not professional in this field either).

Other alternative is a ban.
But legal interference into such things eventually leads to corruption (just remember extreme examples - Stalin and his mate, Lysenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko).. Or Hitler and Einstein, as the opposite example.
BTW, please note, my reference to soviet (and/or nazy) methods in dealing with things like this one is not coincidental.

And, people who are deceived by him are already lost, anyway... in many ways :-)

So, don't worry, be happy....

[multiweb]

His website is not even worth looking at. How can you have any credibility with such a layout? If it's a representation of how his mind works then there's nothing to worry about. ;)

[CraigS]

Hmm .. the problem I see created by this guy, which is real, (from personal evidence I have gathered in my own various travels), is that there are many folk who relate closely to his style. They appear to perceive that his over-the-top sarcasm stems from the same frustrations they have encountered in their quest to understand science topics such as the two slit experiment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-MAW9YmN9s) (Which I don't believe is actually the motivation behind Gaede's deceptions).

His rapid-fire obfuscation, (a word I learnt from EU followers, who excel in it), is extraordinarily convincing, as it resonates perfectly with their own learning frustrations and its easy for them to consume. Gaede is quoted numerous times in defence of pseudoscience, usually closely followed by Mathis (another sleezebag).


Many of these folk are young, and their number is growing rapidly !

In terms of priorities, I really do think that the Gaede's and Mathis' of this world, are the truly big problems, and I really feel that the troubles we have here (which we seem to beat eachother up about), are chicken-feed when compared with the havoc raised by these types.

We should direct our energies towards real debunking, rather than being diverted by the ego-tripping trolling behaviours, occasionally observable here, and merely designed to exploit personality facets which we all put on display here ... out of our own sense of trust in the IIS community.

If we get snarly with them, think of the many positive contributions the 'snarly' types are making here .. on a daily basis. This is the counter-balance we should think about before revolting against those making use of defensive tactics, occasionally being used here.

My 2 cents worth.

Cheers

[bojan]

If we adopt his style, nothing will be achieved - except high adrenalin level and blood pressure - and giving him and his followers a satisfaction of type "See, they are agro.. let's beat them a bit more, it works, they have no other arguments".
This is typical "Us - Them" situation. The only science involved in this type of argument is psychology and I think they are far better in this business than any of us are.

The only way to beat this is careful, systematic, detailed argument, supported with evidence.
Sometimes even this won't work with some people, but we should NEVER give up.

In my opinion, the root of the problem is western style of education ("Let kids be happy, don't push them... ").
This is and was a VERY wrong approach

Kids don't know what they will need in life - so the education system (and I don't mean private schools - the bigger nonsense I never ever saw in my whole life) MUST provide the basics.
If it doesn't (and it didn't, which is obvious from what this website and from what I am also seeing every day), we will have even worse situation in the future.

Science to the people :thumbsup:

[CraigS]

I look forward to your interjections in such future situations, bojan. :thumbsup: .. experience the force, Luke !

A big part of me whole-heartedly agrees with you about this .. my only points are: (i) the priorities in the overall scheme of things and; (ii) demoralising backlashes from bunches of lurkers who only choose to deconstructively 'contribute' when the going gets tough, and without due consideration of the bigger issues at stake.


:lol: :) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
… a goody … for a General Chat thread !

Cheers

[renormalised]

Words are the most powerful tools (and weapons) we have. It's not the fact that this guy and guys like him, are lunatics. It's that their words, as Craig has pointed out, resonate with those that have difficulty understanding science (or anything else, for that matter) and are swayed by the "charm" people like him bring to their words. It's people like him that show absolutely no responsibility for anything they say or write which makes them dangerous. They can and do influence a lot of people, especially youngster. Those youngster might grow up to hold important positions in society and if they've been indoctrinated with rubbish like Gaede's nonsense, the consequences could be far reaching and very onerous. Although, it can be just as such for adults, now. You only have to look at what's happening in the US and to a lesser extent in the UK and elsewhere in the West with fundamentalism in politics, education and religion. Freedom of speech and thought comes with a great responsibility to those around you. If you abuse this, then that freedom becomes something else...something that needs to be limited.

Just like a child-parent relationship...the child isn't mature enough to take responsibility for themselves, so the parent assumes that responsibility. Although the child mightn't understand why and rebel at times, they eventually grow to understand why, or if not they become delinquent. It's the same for the above. If people aren't ready, willing or able to assume proper social responsibility for their freedoms, especially the freedom to speak and think responsibly, then they forfeit that right and should be treated accordingly, until they learn to honour that freedom with the respect and maturity it deserves.

[bojan]

And, yes, we need more showmen ..
You must have noticed the huge impact of those young, good-looking scientists on a general population ;)
For average Joe or Jane, this is much nicer to look at than at ugly agro, winging scientists or pseudo scientists (remember Richard's Hoagland's hair style? I bet this was a huge factor in winning hearts of many followers ;) )

[renormalised]

Hoagland looks like the well groomed salesman with a "honest" streak about him. He's not entirely unconnected in the science community and he presents his brand of reality quite convincingly. That's why his ideas get the coverage and following they do.

[bojan]

Yes, but words are just that .
We know better than to use them at a such low level, despite the momentary impact they may have (and let me assure you, this impact, if not supported with a bit more meaning than just aim for impact is VERY short term).
Well augmented discussion, contrary to the previous, will stay longer (and it still needs refreshing from time to time)

[bojan]

Exactly my point :thumbsup:

[Zaps]

Carl Sagan was often criticized by many of his fellow scientists for the open and conciliatory stance he generally adopted when dealing with UFO believers and other similar types.

[marki]

That site is hilarious:lol:. Perhaps he should apply an electrical field to his nuts......it doesnt exist haha:D

Mark

[renormalised]

Yes, they are just that. It's always the simplest of things which actually have the most impact or importance...and also the things which actually turn out to be the most powerful and potentially dangerous. Especially if they're used and abused.

We may know better than to use them in such a way (although, I would question that), but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't or be inclined to do so. It boils down to the ethical/moral and spiritual maturity of the person. The impact of words in never short term. Even if it's mostly forgotten after the fact, as word's influence can linger for a very long time. Sometimes for a lifetime. Words generate ideas, thoughts, symbols, which can impact the very essence of a person's being. Even the most innocuous and simple words can have a great impact, whether it's realised immediately or not, consciously remembered or kept hidden in the recesses of the subconscious.

[renormalised]

What he doesn't realise is that if his arguments held sway, he wouldn't be able to type the garbage he has into a computer for public display:):P

Actually, he wouldn't even exist:):P

[renormalised]

Precisely, because he knew the power of words and he also respected their opinions and their right to have them. Even if he didn't agree with anything they believed in. But, so long as those opinions didn't cause harm in any way, shape or form.

[CraigS]

Are you arguing against the tactics which bojan already sees as unfit here Carl ?

Cheers

[renormalised]

What I am saying is that words, even the most innocuous, can have a great impact. Whether they're for or against an opinion/argument/debate. That's why you have to choose not only the words carefully, but the position from which you are coming.

We use words at all levels (as Bojan would put it), but unfortunately it seems to be the baser levels that many operate at most, if not all, of the time.

Sometimes it is quite obvious that no matter what you try to do to convince people to the contrary, they will believe these nutcases to the letter. That's what you get with the EU, this guy and others. The problem being that we know that if allowed to fester for too long, you will get these opinions holding sway over everything else at the expense of everything else. It's the same "engine" which drives religion and politics. Unfortunately, we have all seen what history has shown us when people or groups of people who have some notion of their opinions as being the "only opinions" get to hold sway. This is what Gaede is trying to achieve. Anyone who advocates the death of someone just because they hold contrary views (about anything) is as evil as the Inquisition.

I fully support having good and well structured arguments to counter guys like this. But you have to be aware that it might all be an exercise in futility if you let them get too much of a foothold and that to weed them out is going to take a monumental effort, which mightn't succeed. Sometimes attacking these guys doesn't work, at other times it does. It's entirely dependent on the individual situation.

Any sane person would laugh this nutcase off, but even lunatics can get away with appearing sane, if they have good enough arguments or a clever sales pitch and a willing audience.

[bojan]

Yes...
But what to do to neutralise them now when it is already too late for many?
The proper education (when it is on time - primary and secondary schools) should be the normal way to ensure the critical mass of scientific way of thinking.. but this implies involvement of government (or, better, some independent body.. we can't assume the government of the day will always have the same philosophy about those things).
And no private initiative whatsoever (charity-like or whatever) will ever succeed in this task - this is the open door to corruption and all sorts of vested interests.

BTW, have you ever wandered, why former USSR produced such a large number of mathematicians, artists.... all those non-profitable professions.. number disproportional to western percentages?

[OICURMT]

QFT!

One of the most logical and best phrased comments on this site...:thumbsup:



Carefully chosen words carry a lot of weight.

" The pen is mightier than the sword "
Edward Bulwer Lytton


OIC!

[OICURMT]

Agreed... and herein lies the rub. Educators are being marginalized.

<slight off-topic rant>
One of my biggest concerns is the simple fact that we, as a society, feel it is ok to underpay the people who educate our children, who will eventually be future leaders (scientist, educators, politicians, everyday working man etc...) of this world.

I will never understand why we spend thousands on our kids for Computers, Consoles, "designer this" ... "designer that" and then complain when the people who educate our children want more pay because they have to get second jobs in order to make ends meet... the extra minimal cost to society will reap back a dividend several fold over being passive and doing nothing.
</slight off-topic rant>

Guiding children to think for themselves in a logical fashion and question the world around them allows us to neutralize the problem before it starts...

Get them early and the world opens up... get them late and you have the blind being lead by the blind.


OIC!

<BTW: I am not an educator, nor is anyone in my family. I dated one once... but let's not get into that :) >

[CraigS]

Interesting that this discussion has zoomed in on the Education system.

Whatever happened to parental responsibilities in all this ?

Teachers/Education systems are the dumping ground for many of society's undesirable tasks.

Cheers
PS: And "no" … I am not a professional teacher !

[renormalised]

I'm all for the proper regime of education. One thing I feel is that kids should be looked at from an early age to see what they're competent in and their education tailored to help them to achieve the highest abilities in those competencies. They should still get a well rounded education, but not at the total expense of any abilities that they might have. If a kid's good at science, then they should be pursuing this course. If they're good with mechanical subjects, then they should pursue this. If any kid has a particular ability in any field of study, then they should be encouraged to pursue that field. In order to properly develop their potentials, they have to be identified and encouraged whilst they're still young. It's no use waiting until they leave high school. By that time, they've become set in their ways and/or developed bad educational habits, or have lost interest etc. The crucial learning period and when good habits of a lifetime are developed is when they're still young and growing. High school should be a consolidation of their previous skill building and a further extension of their study into their chosen areas. University should then become the consolidation of all that previous work and the beginnings of their dedicated research and study into their chosen fields.

Or, if they're mechanical/service/manual labour inclined, into those areas.

[renormalised]

I agree, but it's also a case of many parents not being equipped enough themselves to be able to handle the responsibility (not always their fault), and it's also the case of the teachers having to face too much, or too little. The problem is the governments and the fact they listen to all the mamby pamby ideas that come out and then legislate into law things which, for the most part, they haven't a clue about. That's where the trouble begins.

The laws eventually take both the parents and the teachers out of the loop, so that neither can exercise their proper responsibilities towards the children.

[OICURMT]

Another very valid point. However, since I am not a educator, I must rely on those with the background to educate. Parents are clearly in a supportive role with respect to acquisition of knowledge. I see my parental role as a teacher of how to integrate with society, not as being the primary educator. I help my children with their homework and teach them my standard of morals and ethics. I teach them what I have learned through the "school of hard-knocks" and try to make sure they are a passionate person in anything they believe in.

Again, another very good point you have raised with respect to parents. But, if I may have a small rebuttal...

If a parent is one of the blind, who will ensure that the child is not blind?

OIC!

[bojan]

This is very interesting view for me personally .. because when I was at that age (12) in the country I am originally from EXACTLY this system (it was called "professional orientation" ) was in place (as far as I remember.. and it helped my personal development a lot). Also a good basic education (8 years primary school - compulsory - , then 4 years gymnasia (math and nature sciences oriented in my case), then 4 years of uni (electrotechnical-telecommunications studies in my case) .. and it was a free, public system, more or less available to everyone (who was willing to learn and was capable).
In early '70ies they started to introduce reforms in high schools (more voluntary programs among other changes).. and ruined everything.
As a young professional I was watching the useless generations of technicians and engineering, and I was wandering where it will all end..
It ended in economical decay of the country (OK, there were many other causes for this disaster, not only bad education .. but I am sure it contributed to the situation a lot) and then a bloody war, the consequences of it are still visible in economy and general attitude of the public.

[CraigS]

Its interesting … no one tells a parent what their role is … the parent assumes one automatically … this is along the same lines as the discussion we had previously, where some here, assume the role of 'teacher' (at IIS).

I am in full support of the roles OIC assumes as a parent.

Science requires the seeds of rational thinking before we even mention the technicalities of electrons, photons, blah, blah, etc, etc and rational thinking surely starts at home.(?). And despite the knocking they receive, even politicians are parents making the same choices.

Perhaps even more fundamental than rationality, is understanding the 'ins' and 'outs' of cause and effect, responsibility and consequence ...

How does Gaede or Mathis rate in this area ?

How do others who pass judgements on discussions they are not involved in as "just wastes space", rate in the responsibility area ?

Is this also a missing fundamental with pseudoscientists ? Teach 'em that the Sun revolves around the Earth, that gravitationally caused nuclear fusion can't possibly cause a star to ignite, that all mathematicians are deluded .. and we'll have a better world ! Don't worry that none of the thinking behind all this has ever (or will ever) result in anything of value for society ...

After all, computers and the like, never originated from fundamentals such as accountability to workers burdened by having to manually crunch ridiculuous volumes of paperwork, etc.

She'll be right .. tell 'em a bed-time story and don't worry about the consequences !

Cheers

[xelasnave]

I feel guilty because over the years I have ranted against everything but I would like to think I have never wanted to "silience" anyone I was ranting against.
Above all I would like to think I never had any power to influence anyone on my ideas...certainly never convinced anyone here.

However I still suggest not to worry about this chap I think it is better to air views etc rather than possibly drive them underground by seeking to ban publication whatever....

I think Carl had it wired.

alex

[sjastro]

Here is the great man himself (Mathis).

Talk about a narcissistic crackpot.:rofl::rofl:

http://mileswmathis.com/me.html

[CraigS]

He has that … how can I say it ? …. well, he sort of has that "Brian Cox" look, don't you think ?
:P :)

So, coming back to the point in question, he doesn't even see himself as accountable to reality, eh ? (Not surprising judging from his written work, either).

Cheers

[sjastro]

It's the point behind my post. Are these guys the way there are because of a limited grasp on reality?

At least he has didn't portray himself with a halo.:lol:

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Maybe so with Mathis … but I don't necessarily see Gaede in quite the same light …

Cheers

[CraigS]

Another culprit … Deepak Chopra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra) … ever heard his mumbo jumbo which makes frequent use of QM terminology ? Chopra's is a master of deliberately confusing real science with pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo. His following is huge too, (unlike Gaede & Mathis), which I find very disturbing …


I've seen Richard Dawkins have a go at him, (as only Dawkins can), and I notice that Phil Plait also had a few words (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/07/18/dear-playboy-deepak-chopra-is-wrong/) to say about him, recently.

Plait's well chosen words below really summarise my feelings on much of this as well…


Very cool words from Mr Plait … he gets my vote on this issue.
Chopra's ramblings are nothing but deceptive and dis-empowering for his gullible followers.

I also notice marked similarities between his ramblings, and certain recent posts here, which seem to me, to fit squarely inside meta-physical interpretations of physical reality, using QM concepts techno-speak.

For me, QM principles support QM. Extrapolating such outside of the quantum world, only serves to add confusion to those not intimately familiar with the well thought out reasons for their invocation in the quantum world.

Cheers

[renormalised]

Don't worry about that one, Steven. That will come to pass soon enough!!!:):P

A limited grasp of reality and a huge ego. Or a preoccupation with fantasy, or they live in some other parallel reality and their presence here is just a holographic projection of their twisted sense of self:):P

[renormalised]

Go and have a look at this, guys....

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00current.htm

It's so farcical in its premise it's laughable. Catastrophic global flooding...next minute, they'll be saying they have proof of Noah's Ark!!!:):P Oh, and the Earth is only 6000 years old, of course:):P

The only thing that's been "electrically hardened" is their brains, or what passes for a brain amongst that lot. Most likely all that mud that was produced by their flood!!!!:):P

[sjastro]

Yep I can back him on that. I did geology at Uni for a year and never encountered a geologist that wasn't human.

[renormalised]

I'm not quite so sure....in my travels at both uni and in industry as a geo, I've seen some rather weird geologists:):P

[CraigS]

I've had another thought about why these guys rebel against science. This thought actually casts the whole thing in a slightly different light, which I haven't really thought about too much before.

See, there are some scientific theories for which it is very difficult for the common man in the street, to clearly identify evidence for them having directly resulted in practical applications. For example: Evolution and (somewhat) unfortunately, I think …. the heliocentric view of the solar system. (Perhaps the 'Theory of 'Global Warming' is another ? :question: )

These theories, whilst having resulted in scientific revolutions which emancipated the scientific minds of the times, (and therein led to many practical inventions in the longer term), I think, have little direct, immediate and practical applications from a common-man's perspective.

If their impact has truly been more on philosophy, religion and culture and other areas outside of their immediate branch of science, then I can better understand why the reception of these, is not met with more open arms throughout society and also resulting in the parallel development of pseudosciences.

It also exposes the 'softer ground' one may have to stand upon during debates with these folk, as well. An awareness of this 'softer ground' is important to have in one own debating arsenal.

Cheers

[renormalised]

I can tell you why most rebel against science....because they couldn't handle it at school. They never liked the subject to begin with and/or they just couldn't get their heads around it. So, they dismiss it and then think they know better, because "common sense" or something else they feel is more "plausible" tells them otherwise.

Or, you get those that were alright with science, but think they know better and that their ideas have more veracity than the accepted ideas. When they get "slapped down", they resent it and then go on a personal crusade to prove everyone else is wrong and that they're right.

And, as you said yourself, some feel disconnected with science and what scientists do. They wanted to be a part of it but they can't, so they become overtly antagonistic towards science and scientists.

Plus, you get those that were good at science and have degrees and experience in their fields. But for some reason, only known to them, they go off into cloud cuckoo land with some wacky idea of theirs that they can't put down because they're obsessively compulsive in pursuing it. Even if it's clearly wrong and flies in the face of all logic, rationality and breaks every scientific principle (or even "common sense").

[CraigS]

Yeah Carl there are those who are as you say .. then there are the dissident scientists, which I think overall, have a way bigger impact than those who simply bear a grudge.

Worse still are those dissident scientists with political bias, who are embedded within a system where they have to justify their theories on an 'immediate applications' basis.

Cheers

[renormalised]

Some of those are in my fourth category...and sometimes, they get it right. But not all the time.

[xelasnave]

Dont you like the ending Carl?..
.

The final choice of hypothesis—or, rather, the temporarily popular choice, since by the nature of the process there cannot be finality—will depend on which one geologists find most useful in helping them to do what they then want to do. Because geologists are human, egotistical and political motives are an inseparable part of the process, and the science will always have to trickle around declarations of finality and conspiracies to dismiss alternatives. Acquiescence in pretenses of “secure knowledge” will lead only to a self-congratulatory sterility. Curious minds will wander off to see things with new visions.

Now you cant are with that????
What did he say:shrug::screwy:???

Waste of time ...these people give legitimate sudoscientists a bad name:D.

alex:):):)

[wasyoungonce]

Well it does fail in this insanity test!

[renormalised]

That, Alex, is nothing more than hot air being spouted by someone trying to be philosophical about something he doesn't understand. The only thing sterile about all of this is his mind.

[xelasnave]

Carl your avatar is a constant reminder of reality.
I think the net is responsible simply because even someone like me can publish an idea...but on the positive the net can educate someone like me.
I dont waste time really with sites other than here or conventional science on the basis there is not enough time for me to learn with what is established science..and if I want alternative it will fit within what it must fit within... I understand MM experiment and agree it does all it does but hasnt found the eather thats all:lol::lol::lol:.. seriously blame the net you can learn everything in a couple of days..as I have done;) many times... and then your an expert...open a site and off you go..I never opened a site but had one opened under me to my surprise..anyways it is easy for these folk to bang their drums for what ever reason the net makes the drums louder than in the past.
Speak your truth clearly and quietly etc
Re the first chap......I found the attacks on my heros particularly offensive I find that sort of attack offensive in any context...Not only was Newton not wrong but the Principallia was only one part of his guinius..check his banking credentials...seeing spagetti in the sky how childish...who can we thank for the solar panel really mmm the science was good enough to get the Nobel Prize ... and to have a go at someone who in the face of unimaganable adversity carries on... not just carries on... but where others would have rolled over and given up has accomplished fame and respect for physics argueably the most demanding of all human followings.
Some humility and respect for such greatness even if your of the Universe is the opposite. Mind you I thought Brian Greene was disrespectful unnecessarily to Newton in his Ellegant Universe production...

I think free speech is great but manners please... no one deserves such a lack of respect let alone these great three.
What to do...
ignore him...
alex

[xelasnave]

Exuse mistakes thinking about it had me dash off those thoughts powers going off so it wont go edited sorry
alex

[sjastro]

Alex,

Poor Issac would be turning in his grave accused of being a "Relativist".
Newton was a staunch advocate of absolute time and absolute space.

Regards

Steven

[Outbackmanyep]

Well.....that was a waste of space, much like the tool who made the website.....

[xelasnave]

Yes I had a laugh about that Steven.

Even a mug like me knows that.

But ironically the night before you posted the original herein I saw that chap on a utube vid I thought he was giving a lecture of legitimate science which I am sure he thought he was but for what ever reason I did not whatch it though... certainly had turned off before he said anything out of place so I never got to his punch lines happily..
As I said I dont have time to check out alternate ideas and any of mine if they are to have validity they must fit into and be capable of description within current proven "norms"... gee Steven if I have the problems with legitimate science on a point by point analysis how critical do you think I am of what I regard as a nutter... privately of course:D... but I never waste time on analysing so many propositions I encounter let alone take time to argue against them... encountering my friend the tarot card reader has taught me there is no point trying to destroy the logic custom etc that is tarot card reading etc... similar to religion etc...they just are..they are unfortunately in majority... I have yet to meet a lady who is not into astrology.. they think I am cool because I like the stars also...what can you say... I have a minority view it seems that I think belief systems need the reasurance and support of a reality suggested by science not by superstition.
As wild as my ideas may seem to others I would like to think I always offerred a physical mechanism that could work and as you know.. rightly or wrongly I have only ever seen push fitting into a GR metric.. but others want to destroy good work to substitue nothing but waffle... I waffle too so its hard to be critical ...often when you pick out your dislikes in others they can be "relections" of a dislike about ones self and are as guilty of the crime you see in others.
But given what I say here is the only thing I say at all, due to my isolation, you can expect a little chatter from me I expect ...if the Sun is out I have power so how do you think I regard the "magic" behind a solar panel.

alex:):):)

[sjastro]

Alex,

Any alternative theories are worth considering, but when the advocates of these theories spend their time bashing mainstream science you know there is an ideological opposition involved masquerading as an alternative science.

While this site is run by a screwball the unfortunate fact is his ideas are embraced by a large number supposedly "saner" sites such as the EU Thunderbolts site. So I can only assume they have no issues with putting relativists to death either.:(

The point of my original post is what drives people to this form of behaviour. We have already seen this locally with death threats against various climate scientists.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

Steven we deal always with humans we are humans our past is one of confrontation and protection of territory.
We possibly disregard too easily our recent past where absolute destruction of an opponent was the norm. Many battles saw all killed and all buildings etc destroyed even to the point that the horses and cattle would die because they were not as good as our cattle approach ..I try to understand behaviour in the context of our past.. I think I come from warriors:) ...as we all did:eyepop:..once every man would have been in a clan fight or war ..so many grew crops in the summer but fought the rest of the time approach...generation after generation I suspect... Tollerance is a new quality humans are still trying to embrace. My respect for law is that it reduced the need for so much blood shed in one way.
Folk just need to sit under the stars and get some perspective on their greatness.
I think it is disturbing however the seeming surge in violence as a means of resolution.
Arguement should be devoid of many things humans use in debate.

alex

alex:):):)

[CraigS]

Some folk here may find these kinds of threads tiresome but frankly, I am overwhelmed by the following pseudoscientific sites actually have thesedays.

Other Physics forums are flooded with EU thinking, (or covert derivatives thereof), and I find it very difficult to extract where the rot has set into the arguments presented.

Steven's point here is certainly not invented .. it is definitely real, from what I can see.

Separating the stories which these folk propagate, (through either innocent means or otherwise), frequently requires a lot of in-depth knowledge of mainstream concepts.

I'd like to think we could keep IIS' Science Forum a place where one could visit, in order to get the basic straight.

There is good, sound rationale behind the purpose of threads like these.
:thumbsup:

Cheers

[renormalised]

What I can see here, Steven, is that these lunatics see science, in general, and scientists in particular as a threat to their cherished notions of what constitutes "reality". This is precisely the same attitude and reaction that the religious fanatic or misguided person undergoes. Strong, "faith" based ideologies tend to produce these sort of reactions in people. You can see this in the homepage for T'bolts where they have "a role for you" in one corner. They're trying to appeal to the personal in order to make converts to their "religion". Trying to activate the internalised sense of faith and belonging to something greater than themselves. Politicians use exactly the same tactics in order to win support. It's the oldest trick in the book and the way religions, political groups and tyrants/dictators etc get their support base. Much like the jingoistic, nationalistic campaigns to win support for war efforts. Science, because it doesn't represent any of that and comes from an entirely different PoV and paradigm, is seen as a threat to that mode of thinking. Hence, because scientists represent that "heresy", they're attacked as being the messengers of the "false prophecy".

When you appeal to that belonging to and longing for something greater, you invariably get those that are dissatisfied with the accepted way of thinking and its philosophy, joining the aberrant line of thought. In whatever way they may be dissatisfied and to whatever degree they disagree with and/or can't accept/understand the orthodox train of thought.

[sjastro]

Carl,

Leaving aside the more extreme elements that advocate executing Relativists or murdering Climate Scientists on the grounds of fundamentalism, sites like Tbolts exploit the human nature of resenting people that are perceived as being more intelligent.

The Tbolts forums frequently degenerate into attacking the intellectual capacities of say an Einstein or a Hawking by people who do not even have vaguest comprehension of their works. Then there is the general criticism of associating mainstream science with religion implying that scientists are unable to think for themselves.
It seems that the portrayal of scientists as imbeciles is done by individuals that are most threatened.

Like any good pseudoscience site, Tbolts associates simplicity with "truth".
EU is easier to understand than the "mathemagic" mainstream so therefore it must be right.;)

Regards

Steven

[renormalised]

Actually, Steven, I think all our assessments are pretty close to the mark.

They're just all sad individuals:)

[marki]

What I think is missing in this thread is that the vast majority of minds on this planet are not wired to understand science and that makes us the minority. Each year I meet a new group of year 8's and by the third week I can tell you who will be sitting in the upper school physical science classes (barring some sort of personal disaster) sad but true. No matter how much I try only three in thirty kids on average show any real understanding and this is not just a reflection of my experience but is an aknowledged world wide trend that has been discussed for years. Kids don't like things they cannot master and they carry this into adulthood. It should stand to reason then that fools who set up websites bashing science will soon get a good following convincing many of the follies of science. This is compounded by how badley science is often communicated as well as the arrogance in which some of its most celebrated members treat those who don't understand ( I to have been guilty of this on a number of occasions luckily I am not celebrated :)). If we don't get better with our PR, we will be responsible for our own grief and hand more power to the likes of the idiots who setup such websites.

Mark

[bojan]

Very true, Mark.
Instead of winging about how people are stupid, we have to devise strategies as how to approach the average people and deliver the information in a format suitable for them to accept and comprehend.
It is not entirely true that it's impossible to do it without using comprehensive mathematical tools. it is only much harder.. but it is also a challenge.
Dismissive attitude will not do any good to the cause of scientific education, quite the opposite will and is happening.
At least we should try not to generate more enemies than we already have...

[renormalised]

Totally agree with your assessment, Mark. It's what I've said all along...some people can do science, some can't. Like some people are good at fixing cars and others can't even change a spare tire.

The thing, though, which really irks me is when someone ask a question, expecting to get an answer, then after getting that answer turns around and start arguing with you and says you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about (or, at least, implies just as much)...that's just not on. You wonder why we then don't bother with answering questions or get dismissive and defensive. Good PR is always a bonus and there's a few scientists that really need some guidance in this area, but when you have twits who can't count to ten unless they've got a calculator at hand telling you what you should know about something you've spent years studying, then you can't blame scientists for not bothering to explain anything. Or, seeming to appear arrogant and dismissive. They have every right to be. No one likes being treated like a fool, especially by those people who are the ones who are acting the fools.

[avandonk]

I have had a 'person' with a PhD that did not know the time of day. This idiot shut down an experiment in our lab on the weekend 'as it did not seem to be getting the correct results'. You could hear my raised voice on all four floors of the building on the Monday morning. Not only was he totally out of his depth but he had absolutely no right to interfere with my equipment. I made it very plain to him if I ever saw his face in my lab I would smear it all over the floor an atom thick! His access key was totally blocked so, this could not happen again.
We are wasting our valuable time talking to these ignorant morons. This is the grim reality.
They do not have the tools to even begin to start to learn to have a clue!
The young are our only hope and even they are smart enough to realise that a crooked sorry talented banker can make $500K a year and a scientist at best <$100k.

All we can do is point out the flood of idiocy. But it is like a tsunami and we are being drowned in total rubbish!

Bert

[Waxing_Gibbous]

I'm still not sure when string theory got elevated to a science, but at least it has some elegant math.
One of the prices we pay for instant information on the 'web' (2.0) is the plethora of crackpots that are as free as anyone to expostulate whatever nonsense thay want.

The truly important thing, in fact the ONLY important thing, is that these people are not allowed credence at the political level.
Remember in the late '80s, America was effectively being run by Nancy Reagan's astrologer!
Look how well that turned out.

[renormalised]

Too late for that, Peter. Creationism has political credence in the US and in some other countries and it's spreading. It's not the only crackpot idea that's spreading around, either.

It's usually those people that are in the most serious trouble that can't see that they are. They just blithely carry on like nothing's happening or going to happen, and then when it does, they're usually the first to start blaming everyone else but themselves. We're in trouble...some more so than others, but the rot has set in. We're in the same position as Rome was in 350-400AD and it won't be long before something happens to make everything start to unravel. Might be a few decades or so, but it will happen. I only hope we can manage to stop it, or at least some of us can.

[sjastro]

"Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science."

An article from Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html).

Regards

Steven

[bojan]

Yep.
It is hard to say which sign is THE most important, but my opinion is it is this one (discussed earlier in this section, if I remember correctly)

[xelasnave]

Being alone helps crazy thats for sure;).
I was surprised that Leonard Suskin in the Elegant Universe basically said he spent all this time in his attic working out string theory and felt like hitting the bottle when it wasnt accepted.... I did not realise who he was at that stage and regarded him as suspect because the loney thing had been pointed out to me earlier... so it was strange he/they made such a statement ..it is always in the spot a crackpot list.
Look at the first radio..hardley an individual effort... and how large was it..
Many examples really.
alex:):):)

[sjastro]

Scientific illiteracy in the general population is the catalyst for misinformation to spread.

Here is an example.



Regards

Steven

[renormalised]

Better not have another glass of water ever again. According to that, it might do all sorts of nasty things to me:):P:P

[avandonk]

We are as a species in real trouble. We are polluting our life support system and the idiots who pay to get their garbage taken away think that polluting our very air and water is fine when done by corporations.

To be very blunt we have reached peak oil and peak water. All the coal that is left that is not burned already will not save you. Enjoy the current boom because that is it, finito!

I honestly do not care as I will be dead soon due to old age. So long and thanks for all the ignoring your future plight so we oldies can just consume!

Or was that thanks for all the fish!

Bert

[bojan]

This is a joke actually... some may take it seriously, though.. :rofl:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/dhmo.htm
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html#OPPOSE

[xelasnave]

I have all the symptoms:eyepop: ..who do I sue:D?
If nothing else we should tax it as that will make the poluters pay:rolleyes:.

One of my pet quacks is a "DOCTOR":question: in Japan who has worked out there is good water and bad water:eyepop: and if you write "love" on a note put it around the bottle you will get love:screwy:... I think he must have a water bottle with "money" writen upon it as he does an amazing trade with countless patients.... so it must work...:rolleyes:
alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

One of the serious consequences of the dribble on the net can be seen in the BYron Bay area and around here is the growing number of folk who wont let kids have their needles for prevention of childhood illnesses.
I chalenged one re what about beating small pox..answer "things come and go it was on its way out thats why we dont have it now...." or it died out all by itself... given many of these relevations come when solializing I find it best to nod and smile and offer no comment because it is pointless to do so...

Another will only drink milk without it being pasturised..thats illegal for a reason mate...has to eat raw meat otherwise you dont get the benefit of "the life" in it...what can you say... there is plenty of good information on the net why do folk migrate to rubbish and select it over tried and tested stuff.

alex

[marki]

Yes I heard herbal remedies are big business in Nimbim :P

Mark

[xelasnave]

I have only been there once and I did not like it at all.

Very different folks you see them in Lismore they flash you back to the 70's with their clothing style.

It is a notorious growing area for pot and I think that is its main attraction for tourists and the street trade is quiet open unfortunately.

But it is home to the Rainbow Power Company possibly the first alternate power generation supplier. AND thats why I went there to get my solar panels etc near 12 years ago.

One of the founders of the Rainbow Power Company was an original "hippy" building wind generaters water wheels etc... Peter Pedals...he had a pedal powered lap top ages ago. He dropped out but now the growing company has dragged him back to a capitalist reality.
alex:):):)

[bojan]

Another one.. again.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/degrees-of-freedom/2011/08/11/fox-commentator-distorts-physics/?WT_mc_id=SA_WR_20110818

[CraigS]

..at least the motives of this guy are transparent … I mean, he's been made redundant by long range climate forecasts, hasn't he ?

Cheers

[renormalised]

And what an appropriate name he has too:):P