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CraigS
13-07-2011, 04:40 PM
Well … one for Bert (& other interested life originists) ...

Onstott's discovery of worms in Earth's depths raises questions about life in space (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-onstott-discovery-worms-earth-depths.html)


.. doesn't really surprise me, but the possibility that we may have evolved from microscopic roundworms-from-hell, is a classic !
:)
This bit is crucial as far as I'm concerned … we rarely see any thought being given to the possibility that such extremophiles may have evolved at the surface and got washed down to such depths ….


Cheers

renormalised
13-07-2011, 04:43 PM
Make good bait for freshwater fishies:):P

CraigS
13-07-2011, 04:54 PM
…. or struggling astro-biologists facing budget cuts !
:)

renormalised
13-07-2011, 05:24 PM
I hear they go well with a side salad of mixed vegies:):):P

Just lightly tossed in a wok for a minute or two:):P

renormalised
13-07-2011, 05:25 PM
Or "deep fried" down a gold mine in the Witwatersrand:):P

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Thanks for that Craig.
As to how they got there interests me less than the fact they are found where they are found.
Life is found in places we could not entertain only a quarter of a century ago... does this give hope to a subterainian inteligent Martian empire...I say it does and funding needs to made availble so we can sink some shafts on Mars....
BUT who knows where life will be found if we never look.
Keep the good stuff coming Craig..you know I think you would make an excellent journalist in the realm of science.... your commentary on the black hole recently was excellent such that even a mug like me could understand it clearly.

alex
alex

CraigS
14-07-2011, 03:14 PM
A journalist ??? Nah .. I don't drink enough !

… Thanks for the encouragement, Alex.

I'm just trying to repay some of the value I take away from this place.
(I'm not entirely sure this thread is a good example, however … ;) :lol: )

Cheers

M54
14-07-2011, 03:28 PM
This is a nuffy question, but could they have been transported down on mining equipment and miners boots? And then bred?

CraigS
14-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Hi Molly;
I'd say from the last quote in my OP .. that what you say, hasn't yet been ruled out.


I'm interested in the outcome of such testing, however. It seems to me that this possibility deserves a lot more investigation, in order to rule out such possibilities.

And if they have been transported from the surface, then the implications of the findings, as far as finding exo-life, would seem to be minimal.

Cheers

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Drinking like any skill can be learnt and developed with daily practice.

Drinking may also enhance the ability to imagine cities under the surface of Mars...

It is small glimpses of life in odd places that must tell us there is hope to find it in other places where we would discount in the past.

Life seems to set up if there is a free feed I have noticed irrespective of the hardship in many cases.
The life around those underwater lava outflows surprised me... who would have thought ..but there it is.

AND when I look at my own surroundings life can flourish in strange places indeed.

alex

CraigS
14-07-2011, 03:54 PM
See, this is my problem … none of this surprises me, Alex … perhaps I'm just turning into an old fuddy duddy, or something but when you think about the abundance of life on Earth, what's the big deal about finding it in 'extreme' places on Earth ?

Sure its of interest, but how can its presence in these locations on Earth, in any way, imply anything about the chances of finding it extra-terrestrially ?
(Other than via human caused panspermia/contamination ?)

Cheers

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 04:19 PM
There is obviously no direct correlation if you have not been drinking Craig however after a few drinks such extrapolation seems reasonable..or so I would expect given what research, into the effect of drink can do to the human mind, has suggested to me....
My observation is merely one of humans I think...it would not been long ago the prospect of many things we know about today would have been rejected as mere fancy... but we can take away one thing..as I said life has a way of finding a feed and I think we will disover life elsewhere that has found a feed in the most unusual places ..even on other planets....It raises the old question...are we alone etc..was the whole place made for us...to answer those questions NO and NO may seem humble but maybe it could be that way...who knows we can only go on what we see and so far as I said ..life lives where it finds a feed..should we limit possibilities because we only understand food comes from a supermarket?
Anyways I know what I am looking for just fund me and I will look real hard.

alex

bartman
14-07-2011, 04:29 PM
Who would have the Land Rights? What taxes would be imposed? Would any endangered species be harmed. Greenpeace. Richard B.Who will be the Foreign Planetary Affairs minister? Can I buy a plot? Mars (Gold) Rush?
Hehehehe ;):P;):P



Dito

Bartman

renormalised
14-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Basically, if it can survive and flourish in these sorts of conditions here, then the chances of finding it elsewhere go up dramatically. And what is life, anyway. We tend to think in such narrow terms that it's most likely the case we miss most of the stuff. In actuality, we really don't know what it is that makes things live. For all our probing of the biochemistry, biology and physics of living systems, we haven't a clue as to what life is or represents. We barely even understand how many of the physical systems we've studied, work.

You can argue till the cows come home about the chances and non chances of life's occurrence in the Universe and make the statistics for its occurrence say anything you want. But if you were to argue that we are it, then there are several things that can be said about this. The scientists are deluding themselves and the Church and other wackos have it right, humanity is seriously out of kilter so far as our mental stability is concerned and what would be the point in even bothering to study science, especially astronomy and such. If the rest of the Universe was that hostile to life, even thinking about the deliberate (or otherwise) panspermia of Earth organisms would be an utter waste of time.

Arguing against the possibility of extraterrestrial life just because we haven't found any and only know of one example of life in the Universe is so literal, myopic and narrowminded it's breathtaking in its hubris. We've hardly begun science and yet we think we know it all.

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 05:14 PM
Carl it is encouraging to see someone who can respect what we know but also understand the future is not yet know and reasonable speculation is not extreme thinking.
Human experience is all we have... we can only proceed that way..but humans have something I find facinating...imagination...it is a great tool... and using it within reason must be our big thing I suspect... imagination has delivered everything to us so far... it is not hard to imagine that life is not confined to this planet... it would seem arogant to say it was..if you were on the outside making comment what other conclusion could you offer...
But our imagination lets us enjoy specualtion confined to our experience...some imaginings are unreasonable given our experience..others..like finding life in places we would think means death...could let us entertain a possibility that life will be abundant in other plkaqces even places not on this planet...finally it is the old cat in the box problem..you dont know until you take a look... you can guess and project probability but that is mere fortune telling really... the odds have littel to do with who wins the race..odds reflect a market of humans happy to bet and no more than that.

alex

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 05:17 PM
Bartman I had to laugh when I noted your comments.
I was having a chat along those lines with someone I had never met before.
Given our human complexity...or our propencity for intrige etc just how would we go..really..just think about it.

alex

CraigS
14-07-2011, 05:20 PM
Only if you assume it likely that it has migrated, or been transplanted to a similar exo-environment, in the past. Ie: assume it has been transported, survived, and then it adapted in that exo-environment.
Finding it in such locations on Earth, says nothing about its emergence in those environments, so the assertion that the chances of finding it in exo-environments has 'gone up dramatically', is critically dependent on major assumptions about a lot of unknown variables.
(I notice you didn't mention exo-environments in your words above, also .. but that is what we're talking about, no ?).


We have only one definition of life(s) derived from that which exists on Earth.


.. which I'm not ..

I'm not arguing this … and I find the linkages connecting your above points, involve quantum leaps, opinions, judgements and assumptions.

Cheers

renormalised
14-07-2011, 05:28 PM
Like I said before, Craig, we only have one example, everything we argue about life elsewhere is based on assumptions. But if we take good old Occam's Razor (and hopefully it's not blunt!!!!:):P), which is something mathematicians and other scientists are so fond of quoting, then all things being equal, life will most likely also be in exo-environments as well. Especially where similar conditions exist as does here on Earth. But as I also mentioned, that is most likely being to narrow in our scope.



Precisely.....way too narrow. that's why we need to look beyond the box.



As I find yours.....so, we're even stevens:):P

In any case, I was being overly dramatic there only to prove a point. That being if all there is, is us, then you're going to have to do some pretty fancy dancing when it comes to the explanations as to why. Can you imagine the churches and such with this....they'd have a field day!!!!. And, what about aliens and all the stuff people go on with about that, science fiction etc etc......flights of fantasy and even delusional behaviour if the argument was the case. And, if the religions were right, why would science even have any real meaning. What any of us actually knows would most likely end up heretical!!!!. Feel like a family BBQ??:):P

CraigS
14-07-2011, 05:39 PM
Chaos theory tells us that even if the exact same initial conditions occur elsewhere, the outcome will not necessarily be the same.
Further, unless we know the exact initial conditions under which life emerged here, we can never predict the outcome, elsewhere.

These are mathematical certainties.

Cheers

avandonk
14-07-2011, 05:47 PM
There used to be a cartoon of crabs in a pool called the Pooliverse. Every now and again a dog would stick his head in. He was called the great eyeballs in the sky. Everytime the crabs made progress they would smugly say it was a great step sideways for crabkind!

Sound familiar?

Bert

avandonk
14-07-2011, 05:59 PM
In my opinion life is an inevitable outcome of random events. We are not unique or special.

Life is to be savoured and enjoyed. If it has happened once in a very large Universe it has happened countless times.

Do you really think that the bacteria on your elbow really worship you? They just do what bacteria do. Are we any different?

We are just simple primates on an insignificant planet well away from the dangers of the rest of our galaxie (I hope!).

Nematodes are everywhere and fill every niche or environment. You are looking at your ancient relos.

Bert

renormalised
14-07-2011, 05:59 PM
How can you have a mathematical certainty when the underlying mathematics itself is completely uncertain. That's a contradiction in terms.

Actually, it's a complete invalidation of the underlying mathematics. Or maybe, more accurately, we just don't understand it to begin with.

To be truthful, all things being equal and chaos being the operative norm, then why are we even here ourselves??. By all accounts, this universe should be utterly devoid of life...all universes should be. Yet here we are. The fact that we are here, which is a 100% probability, points to a flaw in the underlying assumptions of Chaos. Chaos might tell you that despite the initial conditions you cannot know the outcomes after the fact or that they might or mightn't be the same, the laws of probability would point to the fact that given all the possible outcomes and an infinite amount of time, the most likely outcome is the one in which you find yourself in.

Another example of the uncertainty principle and the relative state formulation. Despite the odds against it, if it exists, then so it does. And all the other possibilities exist as well, but we only see that one possibility in which we make the observation of its truth or physical reality.

So, if the chances of life are good here, all things being equal, it will be elsewhere. And even if all things aren't equal, that still doesn't preclude any chance. Just means we maybe looking for a long time before we find any.

Here's something interesting to ponder. Let's just say we are it, in this Universe. However, we know that there are many parallel universe branching off this one. What if, in any one universe, there is only one instance of life, or at least one instance of technologically capable intelligent life. Given the number of possible universes, there'll be an infinite number of technological civilisations, or even an infinite number of life bearing planets. How's that for lateral thinking:):)

Or, if we believe Chaos to the letter, there shouldn't be any. Then, what in the hell are we??!!!.

renormalised
14-07-2011, 06:00 PM
Sounds an awful lot like science:)

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 06:00 PM
It surprises me that speculation in matters that no one has specific knowledge about can get so ...er possitional... and that is where I come from on many matters... show me the dead cat and I will say you have a dead cat... equate dead cat for dark matter etc:D
I say there are cities on Mars below the surface and I chalenge anyone to prove I am wrong...with real evidence not just logical inconsistences in my argument.
If anyone will pay for fuel I will take you there:rolleyes:

alex

renormalised
14-07-2011, 06:05 PM
You would have to go there to prove or disprove in either case. Since a Martian city underground is, by definition, hidden from view, its existence or non existence cannot be proven. Or even hinted at, unless indirect evidence was found.

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 06:16 PM
Thats why I want fuel money....give me the fuel money and I will prove I am wrong.
alex

renormalised
14-07-2011, 06:21 PM
You want more than a tank full of petrol, Alex:)

A 200MW nuke reactor, 4 VASIMIR engines and 400 ton of liquid H2 might get you there an back in relative safety and comfort:)

And who knows, your martians might be intelligent worms:)

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 06:31 PM
Thank goodness you understand the cost of interplantetary travell Carl with the discounts in terrestial travell I did not want to be the one to mention a figure dollar wise...

Martians are indeed worms..book worms... thats where we got the phrase you know..very inteligent..that why we call our learners book worms..see it all adds up...

Yes it comes down to money..even at a fraction of a cent per mile we are looking at a large fuel bill...but the price of petrol has nothing to do with there being life on mars ..wouldnt you agree?

alex

avandonk
14-07-2011, 06:46 PM
Alex please there is a difference between logical extrapolation and total irrational speculation.

I find any talk of the possibilty of the unprovable as mere speculation. Mars has a very thin atmosphere. It may have bacteria deep in the ground. Cities of sentient beings is just not on as there is no biosphere to support this sort of complex society.

We humans are damaging our life support systems to the point where we wiil have a major problem soon. The Earth will heat up due to our CO2 pollution by at least four degrees. This is before the systems reach equilibrium. We cannot accurately predict the final outcome but it will not be pleasant. Apart from destroying the forests and fisheries we are all at fault by simply being here.

We are using our resources as if we have almost two planets called Earth. For a smart species we are not very bright.

I do not care for me as I will most likely be dead when the the Earth's systems change irreversibly. Goodbye and thanks for all the fish!

Bert

xelasnave
14-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Bert speculation is simply that...speculation.
Should it be let lose without restraint..yes of course..it cant go anywhere unless facts support it but there is no reason why speculation can not run where it likes...it is the observer who will determine if there is aq possible reality to be found threw speculation...but lets speculate upon what may be not what is posible given our knowledge and understanding...the key is not to get carried away by anything...we can believe what we select ... the uncertainty principle induceses some to believe that anything is possible in outcome ..I dont buy that but specualtion can be fun....

alex

CraigS
14-07-2011, 07:03 PM
Carl;
I will respond to your post #22 .. I am unable to do it tonight, however.
Cheers

CraigS
15-07-2011, 09:26 AM
The mathematical certainty assertion is only applicable to the prediction. There is no invalidation of underlying mathematics.
Fractal geometry has demonstrated that iterations of solution outcomes for non-linear processes, generates the patterns found in nature. Some of these processes have been observed directly. The outcomes of these solution sets is unpredictable. Null results also form part of the subset of solution outcomes. (Ie: non-exo life outcomes).
Self-similarity of features at all scales, is a hallmark feature of fractals. The evolution of fractal features include both order (pattern features) and disorder (chaos). This mixture is what renders prediction not possible. There is no ‘theory’ involved in any of this. It is geometry.

Life processes themselves, feature self-similarity.

We currently have two major working assumptions in mainstream science:

i) life emerged on Earth from pre-biotic processes, themselves emerging from conditions arising from the environments after planetary formation. This includes localised, (to Earth's environment), feedback mechanisms;
ii) life on Earth has been transported from elsewhere, thus providing a feedback mechanism for non-linear iterative processes, which results in a fractal distribution of life, throughout the extent of the feedback mechanism’s reach.

There is growing evidence that chaos plays a role in both the formation, as well as in the evolution, of exo-planetary systems. Although the planetary formation process can proceed through many different channels – or at least many scenarios for planet formation remain viable – all of them lead to dynamical systems that are highly chaotic. Even the most stable end result eg: a well-ordered solar system like our own, displays chaotic behavior over sufficiently long spans of time. (I think you mentioned our planets ‘wandering about’, in the early days).

The emergence of life is thus driven by dynamical processes, (including local environments), known to exhibit chaos.

In the face of such chaos, the results of the planetary formation process requires description in terms of a full distribution of results. Given the enormous variation possible, and the extreme sensitivity to initial conditions, it is demonstrable (from model simulations) that a single outcome of any given dynamical experiment cannot be predicted. There is close alignment between the outcomes of these models (unpredictability and certain macros scale structures), and the progress towards results, observable elsewhere in our universe.


Our presence, is one solution outcome amongst enormous permutations, all of which are critically dependent on other chaotic outcomes like planetary formation (perhaps, even infinite). We represent one instance outcome. The question here is: can we predict the next instance ? Based on the evidence for the chaotic processes which resulted in life, and time-compressed simulations, all of which include knowledge derived from fundamental deterministic physics, we know we cannot predict the next instance.

This is predicated on a principle, which is a working assumption. The Chaos/Fractal geometry outcome is based on certainty derived from the basics of geometry and empirical observational evidence.


Once again .. a philosophical perspective based on working assumptions, which is a perfectly reasonable basis for developing theories .. its just not comparable with the basis of Chaos/Fractal geometry.


Hypothetically speaking ... :)



As mentioned above, a legitimate outcome in Chaos/Fractal geometry. No contradictions here … and no 'beliefs' are required.

I hope the above is logical/rational. I am open to other perspectives such as that coming from philosophical principles such as uncertainty, etc. I feel a need to make sure we are comparing apples with apples. Chaos/Fractal geometry insights do not contradict the Uncertainty basis of QM/QFT/QED etc, and are complementary. The domains as defined by the scales of operation, create a distinction of applicability.
:)

Cheers & Rgds.

PS: I can provide references for any of the points I have presented above. I have chosen not to include these in this post, as I am happy to comply with Carl's preference for developing arguments from first-hand knowledge … perhaps for another time/thread ? ...

renormalised
15-07-2011, 09:50 AM
Geez, Craig, you did have to come out and write a novel about this!!!!. You're going to make me have to really read through this one. Next time, I hope your pen breaks in half or runs out of ink:):P

renormalised
15-07-2011, 12:17 PM
You're not going to believe this....my reply was actually too long to post here!!!!!:):P

So, I had to create a word doc of the reply and post it here:)

14288 characters as opposed to 12000 allowed:):P

I've never before been told, when posting here, of being too verbose:):P:P

That's a first:P

renormalised
15-07-2011, 12:18 PM
Now, who can be accused of writing a novel:):P

CraigS
15-07-2011, 12:33 PM
nyuck .. nyuck .. chuckle … chuckle…
… and you said my response was a novel !
:lol: :P :)
Cheers