gregbradley
26-06-2011, 10:55 AM
I have used both of these cameras for a couple of years now.
I had an Apogee U16M for about a year and traded it for the Proline _ cash.
The Proline is a wonderful camera. I really have nothing I can pick fault with except it is quite heavy. There is a Microline 16803 if weight is an issue for your focuser though. It does mean if you are going to use a Proline and filterwheel and OAG then you need one of those few high end scopes that have the super heavy duty focusers like Feathertouch or AP or some Taks (not all although Tak has upgraded its focusers now to be more beefy, too bad if you got an early model eh?)
A few features though that make it a dream to use.
Firstly the chamber is hermetically sealed and has inert gas (I think its Xenon gas or perhaps Argon).
It never frosts at any temperature and it can get cold. I use -35C and get that almost all year round. I think in the hottest nights I had to settle for -30C with the Proline 16803. The Microline 8300 does -35C all year round with cooling to spare (its a much smaller chip to cool).
It downloads a full 32.4mb image in 1 second! Bang - there it is.
It is quiet. The fans are smooth and refined.
The shutter is fairly quiet as well and very refined.
Software Bisque have kind of ignored FLI as they are more affiliated with SBIG so CCDsoft requires the $99 camera plug in to work and it does not access all the features of the camera. Maxim DL does. I do not use Maxim though as I have always used CCDsoft and am very familiar with it.
The Proline and Microline both have RBI control and FLI was the first to offer this feature. What RBI means is residual bulk image and it means a ghost image. Say you take a flat at dusk and then take a dark straight after, KAF chips will tend to retain a ghost image of the brighter image. This effect various from model chip to the next but apparently it is there in all of them.
I have never used this feature but if you wanted to make sure you were not getting any hidden ghosting in your images you can use this feature if you have Maxim.
The Proline has a built is USB hub (2 extra outlets) and 2 power outlets. This is good for the guide camera and the filter wheel and reduces the number of USB 2 cables hanging off your scope. The Microline does not.
Both my FLI cameras have chips with no cover slips. This reduces some small amount of haloing on brighter stars. FLI cameras also have a range of CCD chamber window material and the Microline comes standard now with a more expensive material and antireflection coating on the windows.
The electronics give the lowest read noise of any of the amateur cameras. They also have the best cooling except for the Apogee with the DO9 high cooling body. The Apogee though has a very annoying very slow cooling procedure that takes at least 30 minutes to get to -25C. Too slow, especially if your take dusk flats and forget to start it up early or if power is interrupted at 3am and it takes twice as long to regain cooling (it warms up slowly then cools down slowly).
Curiously, the reason given for this is not wanting thermal shock to the sensors yet the camera has no provision for a slow warmup at the end of an imaging run. Otherwise the Apogee U16m is a great camera (16 second download time for a full frame image though, but that's getting fussy).
My Proline also has a dew strip heater for the CCD window but I can't access it again and also it has never dewed up. That's more for people in Florida.
Darks show the camera to be very very clean and you can almost imaging without darks but there still is a bit present.
My only wishlist for the FLI is it would be good if it had an integrated OAG like the QSI or one as an option and also it would be good if FLI had an AO unit which they don't. So if you want that sort of a setup you'd be better of going the STX route once they bring out their AO unit.
Also my Proline whilst I can achieve -35C on the large 16803 chip does not do the advertised 55C below ambient but more like 48C. Perhaps mine needs a service on this point. My Microline slams the 8300 chip down to -35 all year round and -40C just about all year round and -45C in winter. At these extreme low temps the chips are almost completely clean. The 8300 chip is a very defect free chip more so than any other chip.
My Microline is an awesome camera and clearly the class leader as-is the Proline. Again an integrated or OAG FLI product would be nice and an AO unit would be good.
The 16803 is the perfect imaging chip. High QE at 60%+ in the Proline,
deep wells at 105,000 electrons, high dynamic range, largish pixels at 9 microns and like the 11002 before it it now seems to set the standard for imaging chips for now.
The 8300 chip is also good. High QE at around 61% or so, low noise but small wells at 25,500 electrons. What that means is a 10 minute exposure will blow out bright stars and they will bloat badly. The 16803 does not do this. So it means you need to use shorter exposure times with the 8300 chip.
The 8300 chip still seems to be one of the better chips in that mp range but it is not the ideal imaging chip as a result. It suits faster scopes with its small pixels 5.4 microns and does not suit long focal length scopes unless you have excellent seeing.
Both cameras guarantee the squareness of the chip and that is important with the larger chips as even a small amount of tilt will show up in the images.
FLI have a clever V groove connector system where a very thin screw adapter can fit in and you can lock it down easily, quickly and securely. Very tricky people.
The thread depth to screw things into the filter wheel though is very shallow and I have to grind down several adapters I have had made as they can easily go in too deep and hit the screws that hold the filters in and lock the filter wheel. Its a matter of specifying that the filter wheel threaded side be the correct depth which is only about 3mm.
I also see a small amount of flex with my Proline 16803 and filter wheel when horizontal - I can push it slightly and see it flex perhaps 1-2mm.
I am not 100% sure where that is coming from but I think it may be the filter wheel which has a fairly thing metal wall so perhaps that metal is flexing slightly. The metal wall thickness of the filter wheel could possibly be thicker like the Apogees FW50 which has a beautifully machined routed out back with little stiffening ridges and is a work of art and strength (although they made a mistake leaving V openings between filters which means dust can enter and move around inside the wheel, land on the filters and can mean you flats will not be accurate if your filter wheel is not totally clean) as the dust has shifted from the time you took your flats to the time you took your lights). Mind you I used an FW50 filter wheel for some time and I simpy kept in clean and I did not really see that as an issue for me. If you were imaging in a windy and dusty area though it may become quite a problem. The FW50 as fast and beautifully made, strong and also accepted different thickness filters.
Service-wise I have found FLI to be extremely helpful and rapid with communications and great to deal with - a 10/10 there.
Overall my experience with FLI cameras and filter wheels and the PDF focuser is I feel I am using the absolute best gear available on the market at this time but I see FLI like SBIG by necessity are pushing into the other imaging areas of their business so I kind of doubt that astronomy is their key market more like Xray imaging or machine imaging.
QSI also seem to be making inroads into making a product that comes closer to matching them. In particular the series 600 with the better cooling. Their builit in OAG is a stroke of genius and will win them many sales. It would be nice to see FLI respond to this innovation to retain its undisputed champion of the world status.
FLI would be my first choice for another camera at this time. Its one of those pieces of equipment where you can just rely on it being the best of its kind and it works everytime flawlessly. It seems rugged, reliable and well made. It performs the best in its class.
Greg.
I had an Apogee U16M for about a year and traded it for the Proline _ cash.
The Proline is a wonderful camera. I really have nothing I can pick fault with except it is quite heavy. There is a Microline 16803 if weight is an issue for your focuser though. It does mean if you are going to use a Proline and filterwheel and OAG then you need one of those few high end scopes that have the super heavy duty focusers like Feathertouch or AP or some Taks (not all although Tak has upgraded its focusers now to be more beefy, too bad if you got an early model eh?)
A few features though that make it a dream to use.
Firstly the chamber is hermetically sealed and has inert gas (I think its Xenon gas or perhaps Argon).
It never frosts at any temperature and it can get cold. I use -35C and get that almost all year round. I think in the hottest nights I had to settle for -30C with the Proline 16803. The Microline 8300 does -35C all year round with cooling to spare (its a much smaller chip to cool).
It downloads a full 32.4mb image in 1 second! Bang - there it is.
It is quiet. The fans are smooth and refined.
The shutter is fairly quiet as well and very refined.
Software Bisque have kind of ignored FLI as they are more affiliated with SBIG so CCDsoft requires the $99 camera plug in to work and it does not access all the features of the camera. Maxim DL does. I do not use Maxim though as I have always used CCDsoft and am very familiar with it.
The Proline and Microline both have RBI control and FLI was the first to offer this feature. What RBI means is residual bulk image and it means a ghost image. Say you take a flat at dusk and then take a dark straight after, KAF chips will tend to retain a ghost image of the brighter image. This effect various from model chip to the next but apparently it is there in all of them.
I have never used this feature but if you wanted to make sure you were not getting any hidden ghosting in your images you can use this feature if you have Maxim.
The Proline has a built is USB hub (2 extra outlets) and 2 power outlets. This is good for the guide camera and the filter wheel and reduces the number of USB 2 cables hanging off your scope. The Microline does not.
Both my FLI cameras have chips with no cover slips. This reduces some small amount of haloing on brighter stars. FLI cameras also have a range of CCD chamber window material and the Microline comes standard now with a more expensive material and antireflection coating on the windows.
The electronics give the lowest read noise of any of the amateur cameras. They also have the best cooling except for the Apogee with the DO9 high cooling body. The Apogee though has a very annoying very slow cooling procedure that takes at least 30 minutes to get to -25C. Too slow, especially if your take dusk flats and forget to start it up early or if power is interrupted at 3am and it takes twice as long to regain cooling (it warms up slowly then cools down slowly).
Curiously, the reason given for this is not wanting thermal shock to the sensors yet the camera has no provision for a slow warmup at the end of an imaging run. Otherwise the Apogee U16m is a great camera (16 second download time for a full frame image though, but that's getting fussy).
My Proline also has a dew strip heater for the CCD window but I can't access it again and also it has never dewed up. That's more for people in Florida.
Darks show the camera to be very very clean and you can almost imaging without darks but there still is a bit present.
My only wishlist for the FLI is it would be good if it had an integrated OAG like the QSI or one as an option and also it would be good if FLI had an AO unit which they don't. So if you want that sort of a setup you'd be better of going the STX route once they bring out their AO unit.
Also my Proline whilst I can achieve -35C on the large 16803 chip does not do the advertised 55C below ambient but more like 48C. Perhaps mine needs a service on this point. My Microline slams the 8300 chip down to -35 all year round and -40C just about all year round and -45C in winter. At these extreme low temps the chips are almost completely clean. The 8300 chip is a very defect free chip more so than any other chip.
My Microline is an awesome camera and clearly the class leader as-is the Proline. Again an integrated or OAG FLI product would be nice and an AO unit would be good.
The 16803 is the perfect imaging chip. High QE at 60%+ in the Proline,
deep wells at 105,000 electrons, high dynamic range, largish pixels at 9 microns and like the 11002 before it it now seems to set the standard for imaging chips for now.
The 8300 chip is also good. High QE at around 61% or so, low noise but small wells at 25,500 electrons. What that means is a 10 minute exposure will blow out bright stars and they will bloat badly. The 16803 does not do this. So it means you need to use shorter exposure times with the 8300 chip.
The 8300 chip still seems to be one of the better chips in that mp range but it is not the ideal imaging chip as a result. It suits faster scopes with its small pixels 5.4 microns and does not suit long focal length scopes unless you have excellent seeing.
Both cameras guarantee the squareness of the chip and that is important with the larger chips as even a small amount of tilt will show up in the images.
FLI have a clever V groove connector system where a very thin screw adapter can fit in and you can lock it down easily, quickly and securely. Very tricky people.
The thread depth to screw things into the filter wheel though is very shallow and I have to grind down several adapters I have had made as they can easily go in too deep and hit the screws that hold the filters in and lock the filter wheel. Its a matter of specifying that the filter wheel threaded side be the correct depth which is only about 3mm.
I also see a small amount of flex with my Proline 16803 and filter wheel when horizontal - I can push it slightly and see it flex perhaps 1-2mm.
I am not 100% sure where that is coming from but I think it may be the filter wheel which has a fairly thing metal wall so perhaps that metal is flexing slightly. The metal wall thickness of the filter wheel could possibly be thicker like the Apogees FW50 which has a beautifully machined routed out back with little stiffening ridges and is a work of art and strength (although they made a mistake leaving V openings between filters which means dust can enter and move around inside the wheel, land on the filters and can mean you flats will not be accurate if your filter wheel is not totally clean) as the dust has shifted from the time you took your flats to the time you took your lights). Mind you I used an FW50 filter wheel for some time and I simpy kept in clean and I did not really see that as an issue for me. If you were imaging in a windy and dusty area though it may become quite a problem. The FW50 as fast and beautifully made, strong and also accepted different thickness filters.
Service-wise I have found FLI to be extremely helpful and rapid with communications and great to deal with - a 10/10 there.
Overall my experience with FLI cameras and filter wheels and the PDF focuser is I feel I am using the absolute best gear available on the market at this time but I see FLI like SBIG by necessity are pushing into the other imaging areas of their business so I kind of doubt that astronomy is their key market more like Xray imaging or machine imaging.
QSI also seem to be making inroads into making a product that comes closer to matching them. In particular the series 600 with the better cooling. Their builit in OAG is a stroke of genius and will win them many sales. It would be nice to see FLI respond to this innovation to retain its undisputed champion of the world status.
FLI would be my first choice for another camera at this time. Its one of those pieces of equipment where you can just rely on it being the best of its kind and it works everytime flawlessly. It seems rugged, reliable and well made. It performs the best in its class.
Greg.