Japanese nuke problem may be getting worse

[Brian W]

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/06/201161664828302638.html

The above link is worth reading and if it is accurate it is frightening.
Brian

[casstony]

That is an interesting article Brian. I tried to find corroborating eveidence regarding fallout over the USA and while articles can be found, there's a notable lack of official detailed assessment. Either the amounts of radiation entering the US food chain are insignificant or the government is lying to the people.

Here's another article: http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/06/01/fukushima-radiation-found-in-california-milk-fruit-vegetables/2/

Excerpts:

EPA discontinued its Fukushima radiation monitoring efforts, and FDA says there is no danger to our food or seafood and therefore testing is not necessary. There have been no calls since the accident for heightened nuclear safety inspections or to upgrade or decommission aging nuclear power plants in the U.S.
Yet, in limited testing conducted by states and independent labs since the accident, radioactive iodine and cesium—both toxic to human health—have appeared at elevated levels in milk and vegetables produced in California. Radiation has also been detected in milk sold in Arizona, Arkansas, Hawaii, Vermont and Washington since the accident
Source: Red Green & Blue (http://s.tt/12A0q) (http://s.tt/12A0q (http://s.tt/12A0q))


The presence of iodine 131, with a short half-life of eight days, in the new milk samples indicates that even now, nuclear reactions are occurring at the crippled Japanese plant, bringing fresh fallout on a daily basis to Asia, North America and around the northern hemisphere. Source: Red Green & Blue (http://s.tt/12A0q) (http://s.tt/12A0q (http://s.tt/12A0q))

[renormalised]

Pure coincidence....did anyone ever stop to think that the caesium and iodine might actually be coming from local sources??. What actual evidence do we have of contamination coming from Fukushima?? Have they traced the path of the contamination?? Or is all this just speculation based on a few limited lab tests??

Speculation, assumption and blame can be apportioned by anyone and the finger pointed, but until they have conclusive evidence there is nothing to be said, or should be said as to whom is responsible.

[casstony]

In any case, if I lived on the US west coast I might be inclined to rent/buy a geiger couinter and take a walk around the fresh produce and dairy section. I might also check my car air filter.

There are two well established facts in this situation: 1. nuclear radiation is escaping into the environment and 2. governments can't be trusted.

[renormalised]

Doing that wouldn't help in the slightest, simply because of local contamination.

They're a given...point one in this situation and point two for most situations.

[Brian W]

Actually it is just as improper to state that it is 'pure coincidence' as it is to say 'heres the reason'.

It is proper to point out the elevated levels because there is datum showing the elevated levels.

Might I suggest that now might be a really good time to find out where it is coming from?

As to any government lying to its people... that is not necessarily a conspiracy buff domain. Certainly the Japanese government has been trying to calm the population by stressing the positive.

Brian

[casstony]

You're being overly oppositional Carl - I think most people would be slightly interested in knowing firstly whether or not their food is radioactive and secondly where it's coming from.

If I found that food was significantly radioactive I'd be publishing the fact and pursuing answers from various sources. If the food isn't radioactive (or at an acceptably low level) I'd stop worrying.

[Brian W]

AP has a story out that seems to fit into this thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110620/ap_on_re_us/us_aging_nukes_part1

Brian

[casstony]

When Victoria's coal fired power stations moved from public to private ownership maintenance and safey standards slipped; the budget of the company becomes the priority and the level of maintenance and safety becomes a matter of affordability.

Perhaps Nuclear power stations are too dangerous to be owned by private companies given that governments seem unable to effectively regulate them?

[CraigS]

… Safer nuclear on the way …
New pint sized particle accelerator leads the way to clean nuclear energy (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-pint-sized-particle-nuclear-energy.html)



Cheers

[Zaps]

That would never happen.

[renormalised]

Why...any data taken at any time could show levels of anything doing whatever they wanted. Because something is happening and there's an occurrence elsewhere which is coincidental with it doesn't mean there's any causal links. I would be more concerned with the parlous state the local nuclear industry is in the US and radioactive materials leaking there than anything coming from Fukushima.

The proper thing to do is to look for where it's coming from, but will it actually be done?? Will we rely on a few anecdotal studies with limited scope to whip up a feeding frenzy of blame. Much easier for governments to allow that to happen knowing that whoever gets blamed will most likely not be the culprits in the first place, but steer the blame away from themselves. If Fukushima turns out to be the source, then well and good. But if the source is local, then it should be said so, not covered up. However, I bet it will.

There's nothing conspiratorial in anything I said about government lying and misinformation. I know from first hand experience what they get up to. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them because the only way you're ever going to find out what (might) be going on is to look for the answers yourself. That, in some cases, might entail some danger to yourself. And in many cases, you may never know the exact truth. Only what you can find and what, in many cases, they let you find.

[renormalised]

No I'm not. What good would it be carrying a geiger counter into a store to measure the radiation (if any) in the food. How are you going to tell where the source of that radiation is coming from?? You can't tell where it's coming from just by registering a few clicks on a counter. Neither would you have the lab facilities to do that testing...and it only works on certain radioactive isotopes in any case. Neither are you going to be able to tell what isotope is present in the food. You would be wasting your time and causing undue panic in those around you.

You're going to find that much of your food is slightly radioactive in any case as things like fruit etc, are irradiated by cobalt 60 sources to both sterilise them and hasten the ripening process. The ground you walk on is slightly radioactive...you're surrounded by a mildly radioactive environment.

If your food was significantly affected by radiation, you wouldn't be eating it. What's more, the radioactivity would set off the fire alarms in the shops if there was any significant radioactivity present. Fire alarms have small radioactive sensors in them that detect those particles in ordinary smoke. A hot source would easily set them off.

[renormalised]

Why do you think the governments don't effectively regulate them, or any other industry for that matter. It's not because they can't.

[jeff65]

If consumers did not buy radioactive food, the producers would have to find the source of the radiation or go out of business. I think this is good even if it isn't realistic.

[Brian W]

[QUOTE=renormalised;734762]Why...any data taken at any time could show levels of anything doing whatever they wanted. Because something is happening and there's an occurrence elsewhere which is coincidental with it doesn't mean there's any causal links. I would be more concerned with the parlous state the local nuclear industry is in the US and radioactive materials leaking there than anything coming from Fukushima.

Sorry Carl, I obviously failed to plainly state my case. I agree with you.

It is time to find out where it is coming from. As for trusting governments... not likely to happen.

Brian

[renormalised]

Walk into a store and point to the radioactive food for me. You couldn't. Most people wouldn't know how to use a geiger counter in any case. Nor could they interpret the readings, except for what they've seen from TV.

Best to leave the testing and such up to those that know their business.

If people didn't buy radioactive food, they'd starve. Most foods have slight traces of radioactivity in them. That's what most people don't know about or understand. You're surrounded by a radioactive environment. You're radioactive yourself.

[xelasnave]

I want a smart phone that reads radiation levelsm...given the stuff that makes ageiger counter click it woul be aagood way to educat th piblic. ..he my kero lanten is radio ative...yes thorium has its uses. But when folk realise the presence of radiation is part of the mix maybe thy would becomeless fearful.
NP ishere to stay a is ever other power source until I isgone...population has grown four fold in my lif time Anid probaly energy use hassgrown at a greater rate so wha will beenergy needs in a century or two. We must learn from the mistakes And educate the public somehow. Next disaster will b handled better Anid the on aftr it better still.
Things are bad in Japan but we must avoid irrational fear. I do feel th smart phon idea woul b a great seller and a great toy tha wouldmaaefolk.feel more in control. Feelings
of helpless ness drives fear And such a sart fon woul maae folk feel in contol.
alex

[xelasnave]

Mmmm can't type fast on a touch screen sorry but I hope you get the general idea..no I am sober but in a rush

[casstony]

Alex, fear could be considered rational at the moment given that we know the authorities can't be trusted to tell us the truth.

Carl, my extended family in California shops for 'organic' produce which I imagine is not purposefully irradiated and ironically may be at greatest risk of accumulating fallout (if there is any). I wouldn't put my faith in shops having properly functioning fire detectors of the correct type to detect excessive ratiation levels in milk or vegetables.

It's a shame the Chaser team aren't doing shows at the moment.

[xelasnave]

Tony I can't disagree..I have been pricing geiger counters and make one at home utube vidios for a while because I trust no one. Japan has a culture of don't tell the boss how bad it is so Government has that additional truth filter.
And we must learn from this. ..
Going thru Coles in a radiation suit with a black box going click would produce fear rational and irrational.
I have to build this phone app not for the money but to make all fear rational.

I use tank water and I sure would like to chech it.
alex

[jeff65]

Carl,

Even if all you say is true, it can only be a good thing to have all of the information and thus the ability to make an informed choice. Even if that choice is between eating contaminated food and starving.

Leaving it to the experts does not assure that you are getting complete and correct information. The experts all get a paycheck from somewhere.

FYI - I did a quick internet search for DIY geiger counters. Pretty sure I could build one and learn how to use it.

[renormalised]

Of course, leaving it to the experts doesn't assure you of totally unbiased info. But are we going to do, issue everyone with a geiger counter??? And as I said, even if you had one, "joe public" is in even less a position to be making considered and objective decisions about this. Most wouldn't have a clue at what they were doing.

Yes, you may learn how to build and use one, but do you know how to convert the clicks into meaningful information and be able to understand it??. You may do so, but a great majority wouldn't.

[renormalised]

Anyone would be at similar levels of risk, whether they eat "organic" foods or "normal" foods, if there were fallout. It all comes from the same paddock, so to speak. I wouldn't put my faith in them either, but if there was one in a shop, it would be tripped by any significant radiation levels in the shop.

[CraigS]

Real time plume spread map here. (http://www.zamg.ac.at/aktuell/index.php?seite=1&artikel=ZAMG_2011-03-17GMT09:15) (Caesium 137 and Iodine 131).

(English explanation is here (http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/video-maps-radioactivity-in-real-time/)). (WARNING: Likely to be biased .. COTO Report not exactly well balanced ..ie: propaganda ;) )

Radiation monitoring in Japan goes DIY - article here. (http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/environment/radiation-monitoring-in-japan-goes-diy)

Real-time online geiger counter monitor reading of Japan here. (http://community.pachube.com/node/611)

US radiation map here (http://www.radiationnetwork.com/) shows readings and proximity to Nuclear plants as well. (WARNING: Pretty heavily biased website, this one mind you … don't believe all it says. At least it shows some people are watching it .. more websites would be needed to check whether the info is distorted/biased ... )
Cheers

[jeff65]

Taking this to its opposite extreme, we could make it illegal for any citizen to own a geiger counter. We wouldn't want any false claims stirring up the public.

Personally, I'd rather be able to use my own judgment as to the credibility of sources of facts and err on the side of too many facts rather than too few.

[casstony]

There can be differences.
eg. grass fed livestock have higher exposure to local fallout vs livestock fed with grain/pellets.

Interesting links Craig - looks like there's no current fallout problem in the US.

How did I let myself get dragged into this discussion anyway - I think I'll go back to the thread that discusses why schmidt cassegrains are such crappy scopes :)

[xelasnave]

Blackcatsystems have a unit that plugs into a lap top. Mmmm door to door...would you like your radiation checked? Byron Bay here I come
alex

[TrevorW]

Question

if all food has been contaminated do we stop eating or only eat canned goods and what then when canned goods run out

if people start dying from radiation poisoning then the Govt will be forced to act

otherwise stop worrying about it

I say eat maybe mankind will build up an immunity too it and make nuclear weapons superfluous

[Kal]

Some of the concerns addressed in the article seem to be about things that they did in the initial stages of the problem where no other solutions were available, for example, using seawater, or spraying water over the reactors.

I just checked on the JIAF (http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/) page where they provide updates and they are using freshwater for all the cooling now, and they have installed some storage tanks with some more storage tanks still to be installed. They are starting to process this contaminated water with filters.

To see a full status update including measures that they are working on or considering, see this pdf (http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1308799692P.pdf)

[morls]

I think this is a pretty clear description of the latest from Fukushima...

An interview this morning on ABC's Radio National. It's with Joseph Cirincione, President of the Ploughshares Fund, a foundation focused on nuclear weapons policy.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2011/3252300.htm

Here's a link to information about Joseph Cirincione. I don't know anything about him, but this site should give enough information if people want to find out about his involvement with the nuclear issue.

http://www.ploughshares.org/about-us/joseph-cirincione

[jeff65]

More commentary - apparently there was a cover-up:

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2011/06/radioactive-dust-from-japan-hit-north.html