Lets say what we really mean RESPECTFULLY

[leon]

Hi Guys, I have been here on IIS for some time now, and one sort of gets to know the general answers and responses to certain subjects, especially the imaging threads, mainly being the Terrestrial Photography Section.

Are we afraid to really say, with respect, what we feel/think about a certain image. ??? :shrug:

Some images that are posted are not really that good, and that includes some of mine as well, and even some from the professional images, do not appeal to some, sad but true :sadeyes:

I know that encouragement to newer members is an important factor, and we need to keep this in mind. :thumbsup:

I seems that we are a bit hesitant to say what we feel when it come to some of the more advanced imagers, and even if we don't like their work we still endorse it as, excellent, great, awesome work.

Lets be more honest in our response and say when an image dose not appeal, with respect of coarse, "No, I really dont like that", or "it looks" whatever !!, constructive criticism is good, and needs to be accepted.

This post is not meant to offend/upset anyone, it is merely to point out that some photos posted from the high end imagers just don't make the grade, :whistle: yet the member that posted the image is so used to high accolades for their work, that anything gets the :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Of coarse some photos appeal to some, and not to others, but what I'm saying seems to be the "norm" of late.

Please accept my apologizes if I have offended or upset, that was never the intention :)

Leon :thumbsup:

[Omaroo]

I take it that this was intended for me Leon. Thats OK - we're friends that go way back. :)

In reference to the image in question, you suggested that it was probably "over" processed in your mind, and I merely wanted to point out that I doubt that it was actually "processed" much at all. I know how he works, and he really, really hates altering what the camera gives him straight off the bat. I was there that morning with him, and the setting was itself surreal - he captured it brilliantly. :thumbsup: He may have used a Cokin filter to darken the sun a little, but really nothing more. He may even have used the sky from a less-exposed shot and transposed it over the sky in a shot that exposed the under-sky section more to his liking. The result might look "plastic" to you, but that's pretty-much how the light was. Truly! :) I doubt that the real captured tones were altered in Photoshop in the traditional "twirl a few knobs, push a few sliders and we'll see how dramatic we can get it to look" sense.

If you don't like it then of course it's OK to say it - it's a free world! I certainly agree that we probably don't normally say here what we truly feel about images. We're not here to upset people though, so encouragement is usually given - and so it should be. Criticism is handed out on many, many images here though - and fairly-so in my observation. There are plenty of "maybe it would have been better if..." comments attributed to many, many posts and I think that's fantastic that people asked to critique actually do! It's the only way for us to learn.

[GeoffW1]

Hi Leon,

I feel in a different position because I am an ignoramus in this area. Therefore I am an example of that saying about not knowing about art but knowing what I like.

What I am trying to illustrate by this is that at least some few comments will come from people who know nothing at all about processing, filters, balance etc etc, but just like the picture, or not.

I admire your courage in raising the matter ;) What a good thing you are so faaarrr over there :lol:

Cheers

[jjjnettie]

There are only so many adjectives to describe the many beautiful images posted here.

[AstralTraveller]

I think that is Leon's point. We need to use some of the negative adjectives as well! :P Perhaps I should post a few of my attempts so they can get an airing. :D

[Kal]

Taste in artwork (and photography is a form of art) is personal and what one person percieves as "ordinary" another person might think of as brilliant.

Somehow I get the feeling that you want justification for providing negative feedback Leon? I know that when I post in the terrestrial section I don't seek approval that my photo is great, and I don't seek advice on what is wrong with it (unless I was to specifically ask for feedback). Sometimes I just want to share. :shrug:

If this is in relation to the sunrise pic, the OP clearly states that critique is welcome, so I don't see any issue with providing a personal opinion, even if it is negative. Personally, I think that pic is brilliant!

[TrevorW]

Leon I usually don't comment on an image if I don't like it my mother always said if you haven't got anything good to say keep your mouth shut, although when I do comment if it seems to be wrong in some way to me I say so even if in general the image was well done.

I won't pander to anyones ego and I don't expect anyone to pander to mine.

Constructive criticism or processing ideas are always welcome

[leon]

No Chris it was not actually directed at you, :ashamed: or any one person for that matter, it is just a general feeling that i seem to encounter over and over.

It was never intended to be a personal thing, but i think David gets the meaning of it, if we feel negative about a submission than we should say so, and give a reason why, once again Respectfully

Liz, some images are just not beautiful, but that is just MHO, I'm sure you have seen some as well,

I don't wish to stir up resentment to me, or other photographers, but even you guys must admit that you see some ordinary pictures from time to time, and still comment in flavor of the imager, and not the actual photo, I have done it myself.

So therefore we must comment objectively, Respectfully


Leon :thumbsup:

[leon]

Andrew, some of the photos are just Awesome, :eyepop: and I am the first to say so if that is the case, but let us not just say awesome to photos that are not awesome, just because it was taken by a particular photographer.

That is the general thing that happens here from time to time, and that is what I'm trying to address.

Leon :thumbsup:

[DavidTrap]

Leon - you make a good point, but I've personally been "flamed" for making negative comments so tend to follow Trevor's philosophy when I don't like an image.

DT

[asimov]

Like David, I've been flamed too. I am respectful & if I am to give my opinion or advice I've always tried to do it in a way that doesn't offend. Some are easily offended though. Personally I don't care who the photographer is, if I'm looking at a photo, it's all about that particular photo.

Anyway I tend to do what Trevor does these days.

[rally]

Photography forums tend to deal with this particular problem by either having sections for C&C or not
Or the poster can say "Please C&C" or not or there is a flag to set.

If people ask for C&C then it should be C&C'd, if they dont ask then it shouldn't.

Some beginners will say "C&C - but take it easy !" and generally the better photographers do so respectfully.

I think half the problem here is that nobody is sure where they stand - the poster or the reader - so you tend to get a random sort of a response.
Also since this is an astronomy forum not a photographic forum, the members have different assessment skills and expectations and in many cases are not really qualified to technically post C&C just opinions on the subject matter which tend to be generally positive per TrevorW's approach.

I have seen plenty of technically beautiful images posted and plenty of snapshots.
But since I dont see this as a photographic forum looking for technical C&C I wouldnt comment publically although I have privately when the poster has asked.

So if I could suggest - if you want C&C - ask for it.
Then it can be given.
If you dont ask for it then you are posting for general interest on the subject only and not the technical merit and none should be given.

My 2c worth

[leon]

Good point Rally.

leon

[Jen]

:lol::lol: lol Trevor you got that right :rofl:

And besides who am i to judge on a pic im no expert :lol: i just like looking at pretty things i couldnt tell the difference if a pic was too sharp or over exposed or been tampered with in photoshop ;)

[Matt Wastell]

This is an interesting post!
I will only make positive comments if I like something....and I see the post!
I enjoy looking at all the stuff here. I will not pass on negative feedback as I have no real understanding of how I can help / assist as most of the stuff here is imaged through or with equipment I have never used.
I kind of believe most folk do the same?!
In saying that if you can assist me in anyway please feel free to pass on any tips!!!

[multiweb]

I second that. I won't pass any bad judgement about equipment or techniques I don't undesrtand. I thoroughly enjoy looking at everything or read anything even stuff I don't understand at first. When I post I do expect constructive criticism. Sometime I don't care or act on it but most of the time I learn something new.

[bloodhound31]

I actually go to another particular forum to post my pictures, expecting to get seriously ripped apart! There are no rules there. Expletives are expected. Those blokes don't mince their words, use very colourful metaphors, call me all kinds of sh... and most importantly, give excellent advice and back-up examples of how to fix it or do it better next time. I love it!

There is no room for poopsy hurt little feelings and thin skins there. You post a bad photo, you will cop it! It's the best! If you want to improve, you can't be a sook.

Yes, it's nice to post up a pic and get praise, but I get so much more out of being torn down. I am hoping that even after decades of imaging, I can still be given advice, be corrected and learn things.

Baz.

[astroron]

A little while ago a well known imager posted an image of Omiga Cent with the core burnt out:mad2: He was getting plenty of well done's ect:rolleyes:
When I posted a reply saying that I didn't like the burnt out core he was not impressed:shrug:
If you ask for feed back and cannot take the bad with the good then don't ask for it.
cheers

[jenchris]

That's cool, usually when I post something, most either ignore it or the mods remove it - so I avoid too much commenting on most pics unless they're pretty nice.
If it's done by someone with expensive gear, then I EXPECT it to be pretty good. If it doesn't measure up, I usually smile to myself and think well you'll get there eventually or sell your gear, maybe I'll get a bargain.

I'm never going to be crash hot with pics, I won't invest the cash in expensive gear. If it costs me $5,000 for a camera, how many pics do I have to take to justify that expense?

Well - I wouldn't so it's not really relevant.

But if you guys take a nice shot, I'll congratulate you with real appreciation.

Some of you are really good - I'm a touch jealous, but I'll get over it

[ballaratdragons]

I have never been shy in saying I don't like an image if I really don't like it.

And I have done so even with the so called 'more experienced' amongst us.
I have told Mike Sidonio I didn't like his highly regarded Centaurus 'A' because it looked washed out to me, I have told Humuyan, a professional photographer, when I think something in his image is off, etc etc.
Geez, just 2 days ago I told the owner of another Astro Forum I personally didn't like the new look of his website, and how I found it to be messy. But it was my own opinion.

But also notice the theme of my comments: 'I think', 'I don't like', 'to me',
They are comments about how 'I' perceive an image, not whether it is good or not.

Fortunately I have had similiar comments over the years about my own images, which have helped me: 'too red, add some blue', 'core looks burnt out', focus is out', etc.

How are we to learn how to make images look better if people always say: 'terrific', 'nice', etc.

I found Jase one of my biggest helpers over the years.
When I was pushing the DSO boundaries with a modified ToUcam he used to encourage me by saying I was doing well with my imaging 'BUT now try this', 'or try that'.

It's a fine line between hurtful or helpful criticism, and a personal 'dislike' comment.

[bartman]

I agree with your point Leon.
Trevor - like what your mum said...... however how are we to improve if not told the mistakes we make?

As Al said " don't take it serious",
but Al ....some people do.....when voting- I think.
I believe People who vote ( not talking about the people who have entered) tend to go for the classical Professional type of photo.

It is a competition after all, and that's what sticks in ones mind.
As it is a competition, people have some expectations.

I believe that the 'Challenge Theme' is an important criteria ( even though it is not a rule).
Interpretation of the theme is the thing that makes the comp interesting.
But if the picture is random (as nice as it may be )......ohhh nooo here I go ...please accept my apologies ......the pic from Chris (Omaroo) is not (I believe)of a seascape. It is a very nice pic - of a dude fishing ....with a wave about to wipe him out....mmmmmm....that is the focal point....not a seascape.......
Getting back to Leon's point,
criticizing somebody's pic is a hard thing to do , complementing is easier ........
Bartman

[Alchemy]

Going to disagree with you Leon ..... My experience is people often get offended when critique is given, followed by a rush of : what would you know etc: as their ego is publicly bruised. Unfortunately typed words never express what would be with the same words spoken face to face, the intent, the nuances, plus the ability to quickly affirm the intent if it's mistaken.
One reads a typed comment and often interprets it according to their feelings at the time.

No ; for me if I don't like an image I won't comment.

Also particularly with astro images, I no longer comment on the basic objects m42 etc, as I feel people should stretch their imagination past doing the same old same old endless repeats ( that's an honest opinion )

Cheers Clive

[hotspur]

?????????????
I feel this is too harsh a comment on 'Omaroo's image,Personally I feel its the best one there!I hardly notice the fisherman,I see a perfectly captured sea scene,I'll get brick bats for saying this.

[leon]

Clive I do have to agree, typed words have no emotion, and feelings, and although one means well it can be taken totally out of context.

And for that subject of Astro repeats,that is true as well, to a point, unless the same object repeated each year when available;e is an exercise of improvement on their learning in the imaging game.

I was the same and ended up doing the same ones each year, although my skills did improve and i could see a vast difference in my work.

Leon :thumbsup:

[TrevorW]

Everything is subjective what pleases one person does not always please another

on a UK site I see lots of photo's where guys have spent hours upon hours collecting data producing a nice target image but showing it without working on background gradients/noise

yet I don't denegrate an image because of it knowing that LP in the UK is a real problem as is the weather although I might suggest background improvements

even viewing the same JPG image across several sites it can appear different on each site

No in saying "if I haven't got something nice to say I don't say it" in fact says it all without offending IMO (although like someone else commented I sometimes get a bit tired of seeing the same old targets, so even then you can't take on face value that I've not said something as being derogatory likewise I may have missed an image as I spread my time across several sites)

and one must remember imaging is like art and everything else in life, beauty is in the eye of the beholder

and at the end of the day we are in the imaging game for fun few of us if any make a living from it

[mswhin63]

Been away out in the country so haven't seen this thread until recently, too much to read through.
I think being too honest can be detrimental to beginners and being put off too much too early in their attempts. So all that is needed is constructive criticism instead of saying whether they are good or not.

Some people have not been imaging very long so it is not expected to be very good but in respect to their capabilities it is very well done.

On another issue, I don't really post many of my images any more because I don't get many constructive criticisms at all. Actually most of my images may have most 1 or 2 comments so not really learning anything.

[Omaroo]

Thanks Chris...LOL! Well, I thought that it looked like a sea scene at the time....

[adman]

Spot on Ken - I have always found that when you offer any critique of someones work, no matter what the field, it is always best to start with something positive, or something you like about it, and then lead into what you don't like, or what you think can be improved, and then maybe some helpful suggestions. In short :

1. Say what you like about it
2. say what you don't like about it
3. offer suggestions / tips

no matter how thick peoples skins appear to be, we are all human, and all have egos. I think it pays to tread a little gently. Doubly so in a non-professional setting.

Adam

[dannat]

Constructive criticism is how you learn, there are other words than the image is ****..I don't like the color in the Kate..too blue to my eyes, but I agree with Leon a thread with 12 great shots doesn't help either the photographer or others who are reading trying to learn about colour, composition, cropping, object placement etc

[asimov]

Just for the record, it only took like 3 years for "might be a tad over processed Asi" comments to really sink in. Get more vicious!:P:lol:

[bartman]

Chris and Chris,
Sorry , I didn't mean for it to come over as 'harsh'.
As I said it is a nice shot.
I must agree it is a sea scene.
I'll shut up now.
Leon, saying what we really mean is not a good option respectfully or not....
Thats what I have learned from this post
:shrug:
I'M sure I'LL get Brickbats for this.......:(
Bartman

[Gem]

Leon,
I think every photo is going to be dependent on WHO is taking and with WHAT they are taking it. The longer you are on this forum, the better you will personally know the ability of different photographers. Some people are just starting out and want to share their photos - even if they do not stack up to the other photos. Some people have been imaging a while and need some criticism to improve. Some people have a beautiful scope, latest camera, a computing degree, a permanent mount and years of experience and should be taking better photos!
Personally, I know the skies and have years of observing experience, but don't know a thing about imaging and "stacking", etc... if something looks nicer than the eyepiece it seems good to me! Maybe, I will be more critical once I know the person and their ability and equipment better.

Good thread.

[leon]

You have made a good point Grant, and this is not really about the beginners and the learning members, it is more about the top end photographers who seem to overlook the learners and beginners and continually congratulate each other, and really don't pay a lot of attention to much else. :shrug:

I am not going to say anymore on this subject as it keeps changing all the time, I just hope I have not offended anyone as that was never the intention. :)

Maybe we can just move on, and continue posting all work from all members with comments that relate to the individuals work. :thumbsup:

Leon :thumbsup: