Temma II or EQ6?

[David_W]

Hi Guys,
I'm in the market to buy a new mount for my new TOA-130NS. I thought I'd go with a Tak mount for a Tak scope, and the 130 is often paired with a Temma II. However, it costs thousands of dollars. Recently, I read some rave reviews of the synscan EQ6 and am now thinking of going with that instead.

There is a very large price difference between these two mounts, does anyone out there have any advice to give? What do you get with the Temma that makes it worth spending so much more money? Has anyone compared these two mounts?

Cheers,
Dave W

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Bruce ACT, TOA-130NS
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[Waxing_Gibbous]

Yes.
Stear clear of Takahashi mounts. :)
Doubtless 'strongmanmike' and others will disagree but I stick to my guns!!!
They are beatiful and when they work, they work. But one trawl through the Tak users group on Yahoo will show them to be a long way from perfect. Threads beginning:"My EM200/400/500 won't - track, lock, go-to, stop, start, - is off by 10 arcminutes, etc etc." are very common. For the money, I'd want a bit more "plug and play" as it were.

Not that the EQ6 is perfect, but its a lot less money, will carry about the same weight as an EM200 and is miles simpler to operate. Also, you don't need a PC to run the EQ6, though you can if you want.
Some bloke in the US has come up with a hand controller for Temma II mounts, but its supposedly quite bug-ridden and is, of course, expensive.

In their favour, Tak. mounts are very solid, reasonably quiet and will probably last well into the next century.

[robz]

I agree with Peter on this one.;)

I've never used or even seen a TAK. mount, but am fully aware of their problems from various forums.

I have the NEQ6PRO mount and can say that it's incredible for the price.
It is underated considerably by it's ability to carry quite large and heavy payloads and is very accurate in it's tracking ability and very reliable.

It is well made and looks it.:thumbsup:

For the price difference, it's a no brainer.:D

Rob.

[Logieberra]

Go the G11. I just grabbed one from Peter Ward @ ATScope... the dollar is still strong :)

Logie.

[wasyoungonce]

Depends what you want the scope & mount to do. Is it for visual or astrophotography? Do you want goto or prefer to "hunt the heavens"?

If for visual then anything from a HEQ5 & up (maybe even an EQ5..aka ASGT mount from Celestron) will just about suffice but if for astrophotography..it's all about the mount so buy a good'un. Be aware Astrophotography is like a hole you throw money into!

If you want to "hunt the heavens" then a good Alt/Az mount may suit.

[Exfso]

I would have to say go for the G11, they are built like a tank and they simply just work as they are supposed to. I have had mine for 5 yrs and really all they need is an occasional bearing clean and re-lube, which is a cinch to do. Having said all this opt for the one piece worm block, I reckon they should be standard.

[Zaps]

When any user base is big enough you'll find complaints.

Take a look at the PME forum over at SB's site. There you'll find no shortage of complaints and issues with that mount. Does that mean it's a bad design? No, it means there are a lot of PMEs out there being used, and maybe even abused. Same with the magnificent Taks.

[marc4darkskies]

IMO, if you're planning to do serious astro-photography look at RAW (uncorrected) PE and capacity. Raw PE is indicative of the mechanical quality of the mount. Anything more than about +/- 5 arcsec and you're likely (though not certainly) be in for some frustration with long exposure work at a significan't focal length (>1000mm). As a rule of thumb, make sure the capacity is about 25% MORE than your equipment weighs.

I have owned an Tak EM-400 - the images I got speak for themselves. Rarely did I throw away subs because of guiding issues even at 1760mm. The raw PE was a smooth (ie low frequency=easy to "guide out") +/- 3 arcsec and the capacity was 38 kg (conservatively). Total weight of my OTA and accessories was around 28kg

If your budget is your main constraint, ignore everything I said but spend as much as you can! :)

Cheers, Marcus

[TrevorW]

For the price go with the EQ6 Pro mount, bang for buck it surpasses anything else at the moment IMO

[David_W]

Thanks Guys for all the comments. I'll be using the mount at first for visual observing, but want to get into doing CCD photometry in the future, maybe not for a few years due to the budget (and I just bought a house), but someday.

After a decade or two of starhopping I like the idea of a goto mount, I think from what you said for visual the EQ6 would be the go.

[jenchris]

I've seen mention of eq6 and Neq6, and eq6 pro
Now on theStar optics site,the neq6 and eq6 are identical - even the same
price except the neq6 has a dovetail plate included.
Is the pro different again?

[Logieberra]

If you grab a new NEQ6 Pro, ensure that the store is connected with the Australian Supplier - TASCO (and not Grey Market importers). Mine came with 5yrs of domestic warranty. Nice to have that piece of mind (and know that I could send the mount to TASCO in Sydney to service).

Or check out a used one in the classifides. They come up often :)

Logie.

[issdaol]

My god I didn't realise that my Tak EM400 was such an unreliable mount. I'd better go and trade it out right now!!

Dave I would go with the opinions of users that have extensively used the equipment they are recommending and also for similar purpose and payload.

[Tandum]

I own an eq6pro and an em-200. I wouldn't spend the cash for a new em-200 but a 2nd hand one was within my reach. I mean they are listed at $7800 at AEC and for a bit more you could have a paramount MX. The tak needs a pc for goto and I always have one near it for cameras so that isn't a problem, but you can point and track without a pc for visual. The goto on the eq6 is rubbish without mapping software driving it where as the tak will put the target on the sensor even across meridian straight out of the sky so long as it's aligned. I don't see how you can even compare an $1800 mount with a $7800 one?

[Zaps]

You're right, it's not a fair comparison at all. The Atlas may be the best of the least expensive Goto mounts, but the Takahashis are in a whole 'nother league.

[Logieberra]

The goto on my former NEQ6 Pro was far from rubbish. Once roughly polar aligned via the polar scope, it never failed to put objects in the FOV of my 26mm eyepiece... :)

P.S. I would have purchased an EM mount, to match my Taks... but they were out of my budget, so I went with the G11... good luck!

Logie.

[gregbradley]

I've owned several mounts, Meade LX90, Vixen Sphinx, Mountain Instruments MI250, Tak NJP and Paramount ME.

I often see good images with decent guiding and they used an EQ6 so they must good bang for your buck.

In my experience the Meade and the Vixen weren't up to the job to do autoguided imaging.

The MI250 was but I found it complex and fiddly. Mainly the Gemini system which is a good system but it is "relatively" complex to learn.
For example you have to set limits for the slews to stop the mount from hurting the scope. I set mine several times but would often get failures to slew because I was trying to violate the slew limits when I was nowhere near them.

Obviously I was doing something wrong but the point is it wasn't obvious and a little bit not user friendly. I am sure there are others who'd disagree and love the system. In some ways it is quite similar to a Meade hand controller system with its start routines etc.

I had to also do many star synchs to get the go-tos even remotely accurate.

Then I got the Tak NJP and it was heaven. Simple, just works, reliable and super well made. One star synch and bang you can go-to to anywhere and get the object on the screen of a DSLR.

I think the NJP was very good up to about 25kg load and 1300mm focal length. Longer was starting to show the PE a bit. PE is about 5 arc secs or so perhaps as much as 7 but I think its lower - more like between 3 and 5. As Marcus said the PE is smooth as well.

Now using a Paramount ME most times (NJP I use at my dark site) I like the fact that it also is super user friendly - even more so than the Tak.

I also like the integration of the mount with the various software like the Sky 6, CCDsoft and their own Precision PEC software and the accurate pointing tool T-Point.

The Paramount also has what is called Direct Drive where your single USB cable connection to the mount controls both the mount and the autoguider so no need for a separate autoguiding cable - I like that.

Also the PME has a home position. If you ever get lost you simply send it to its home position and now you know where you are again. Very smart.

I think these added software and more advanced electronics (Temma II is a very basic electronic controller with no features at all for the user)
mean you can tweak your mount to perform better and get a better and better result as you learn it. The only thing you can do with your Tak really is to make sure the Polar Alignment is more accurate and that your balance is accurate and there is no cable drag.

If you have that sort of budget I would instead recommend a Paramount MX for $8500 that is currently the best value for sophistication on the market. Next choice would be an AP mount - an AP900 or perhaps a Mach 1 GTO. Not sure if the Mach 1 GTO can handle the heavy TOA scope - perhaps but it may be near the limit.

Tak mounts are great but as you can see a number of guys using them are switiching to Paramounts because they are simply awesome mounts,
capable of remote control, more sophistication and more software control that gets you the round stars at 3 metres that you would struggle to achieve with anything less.

Problem is they are not shipping yet. So perhaps a 2nd hand AP900 and resell it when the MX's are shipping regularly. You won't lose hardly anything on resale so you get to use it nearly for free.

Mind you if you can pick up a Tak mount for cheap 2nd hand it would handle the TOA130 easily. Not sure an EM200 could handle it, but EM400 or the earlier model the NJP could easily.

I don't know a lot about EQ6 and its variants but one thing for sure is the base periodic error is likely to be 15+ arc seconds or more.
If it is smooth I guess the autoguider corrects it. I believe it also can run PE correction which may get that down significantly. Others could advise you about this. That would be the thing I would check on - what is its PE and how well does it guide out or PEC out?
That is the MAIN thing with mounts after weight bearing capacity.


Greg.

[gregbradley]

I did a quick google search and here is a thread discussing the PE of the EQ6.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/751092/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/2/vc/1

It seems the earlier models had trouble with the reduction gears causing bad PE and later models are better.

There are also upgrades that one can do to them.

I also remember a site at Andy's shotglass astronomy where you can get the worm and gears for an EQ6 coated with some advanced super slippery coating that reduces the PE tremendously.

So my conclusion with little data would be that they can be made to be good but don't expect them to be perfect out of the box. But there is an upgrade path if you don't mind the fiddle and wait approach.

But my warning to you would be that the most important part of your imaging system is the mount. You get some weakness there and you will never get an image past a certain standard. Plus you will be chasing what is causing eggy stars and that will make the whole hobby unappealling and annoying.

Hell, I've got a PME and I am still spending time chasing mildly eggy stars at 3 metres focal length sometimes. Its a matter of setting it up and I will get there as I had it earlier before "I improved it" hehehe.

Greg.

[UniPol]

Dave,

I was in the same position as you a few years ago. I bought a second hand TOA-130 OTA/EQ6 Pro mount which worked very well. Mind you, the TOA-130 is no lightweight and three standard EQ6 5.2kg c/weights are required to balance the set up adequately. I am mainly a visual observer however some very decent moon, planet and comet images have been taken using a Canon DSLR camera, well, at least my family said they were . Star clusters and the brighter deep sky objects are not difficult however they are not in the same class as Hubble or the more gifted IIS serious astrophographers. It sure beats my old SLR cameras using emulsion film and F15 refractors/F7 Newtonians. 'GoTo' seems to be a must have these days however using setting circles holds fond memories for me in the 1960's - 1990's. Ring up Sydney observatory, get siderial time, calculate the hour angle for the various objects you want to view in the evening using right ascension and declination co-ordinates, seems all too hard now .

Getting back on track, having used an EQ6 with various OTA's and on many occasions, I found it to be relatively quiet, reliable, easy to set up and user friendly, somewhat like Meade's Autostar/Celestron's Nexstar. Owing to my retirement from the workforce a couple of years ago I found that all those years of paying superannuation and mortgage repayments had paid off and I was able to indulge myself by trying out the lastest astronomical equipment on offer. I have only recently replaced the EQ6 with a Takahashi EM-200 Temma 2M mount and tripod to go with the TOA-130 and it certainly exudes quality and so it should at between five and six times the price of an EQ6 ! A figure of $7800 was mentioned earlier for the Tak EM-200 mount, don't forget to ad another $1200 for the dedicated wooden tripod plus another c/weight at around $250 to mount the TOA-130. Unfortunately for us, the Japanese Yen has remained fairly stable against our currency unlike the the US dollar. If we went back to the early 2000's we would be paying twice the price for Losmandy, TeleVue, Astro-Physics et al. I also purchased a Losmandy G11 Gemini mount as well and it is simply great. While the Gemini is not nearly as easy to operate as the EQ6 hand controller you get used to it it and keeps the old brain working in any case. The G11 is superb holding my Celestron EdgeHD14" particularly since I fitted "Scoperollers" to the tripod.

If you will, the Tak EM-200 Temma II compared to the EQ6 is analogous to Ford/Holden vs Mercedes/BMW, both work, but depending on your finances and perception, should satisfy a broad number of amateur astronomers.

Regarding the Paramount MX mount also mentioned earlier for the sum of $8500, I am curious to know what the landed price will be here after adding on freight, GST and duties. Certainly $8500 sounds good but certain resellers here in Australia are reluctant to give us a ball park final figure. This reminds me of car salesmen, one astro dealer here in Australia sells a particular CCD imager for "under $2500", guess what the price is? You guessed it, $2499! This aside, I suppose the PMX is intended for permanent pier mounting but wonder if a dedicated tripod will be available?

[gregbradley]

Jim Miller on Astromart sells tripods out of nice anodised aluminium for both PME and MX. MX tripods I think are about US$975 or less.

I think the MX could be classified as a portable mount. The PME is in essence a heavy portable mount.

The mount is so critical to successful astroimaging my only advice is not to underestimate its importance. The best mount possible is the way to go.

Greg.

[issdaol]

a critical component for both mobile visual and mobile short duration astrophotography (in addition to the mount) is stability of the tripod.

In my experience I have never come across a production tripod that is better than the takahashi metal tripod.

even if you choose a different mount I would give considerable thought to this tripod.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

I've had a Mercedes and two BMWs. Both broke down with monotonous regularity.
My Holden never missed a beat. :D
Great design and dynamics don't always translate into an efficient, reliable sytem.

I think the thick end of $10,000 for a mount that only MAY be better than one costing $1800 is a bit of a gamble m'self. I'm also looking for a 'premium' go-to mount for both my TOA 130 and a custom 12" Newt, but keep coming back to a G11 or EQ6.

AP is out because of silly prices, even 2nd hand
ASA and 10 Micron get the boot as, AFAIK, they have no Australian dealer and have a spotty rep.
I really don't want to be bothered with a PC unless I choose to, so apart from any other issues, that eliminates the Taks.
The Paramounts are out because I simply don't need that degree of engineering.

The G11 is a possibility, But I earlier owned a G8 Gemini and found the GoTo to be less than accurate and quite fiddly. Tracked really well tho'.
I'm waiting to see how G2 turns out.

The whatever-Q6 is at least a known quantity with well documented issues and solutions and I can get 2 for the price of a G11 with cash left over for any up-grades!
I could get 4 for the price of a comparable Tak mount AND hire someone to push buttons for me!
Its all moot as this point tho' as the weather seems to be rubbish for at least the next month.
So no hurry.