obama's new space plan...Bad or Good for human exploration?

[Davekyn]

Probably a bit behind on this one, but this New Space Plan-apparently still under debate in the US...Anyone following this closely?

I'm kind of hoping it's just a front to push space exploration further whilst at the same time, appearing to please those against it. Wishful thinking no doubt.

I understand many people would rather send robots and all that, bla bla bla ...but I'd really love to hear from those of you that are FOR human space exploration on this one.

What a waste of money on the constellation program hey, but then it must of been doomed from the start for this to happen...or not? I thought the moon was not the best way to go, but anything was better than nothing and SOON...

Does this new plan mean that virgin airlines is going to the moon in the next 40years and Nasa to mars in the next century?:(

High Def and spectral pics are exciting but I'm really loosing interest fast in the whole affair if we exclude and put off the human aspect of exploration any more than we already have. I no longer know what to think when Nasa announces a plan, not that it's there fault or anything.

[Kal]

If I had a choice between investing in a program to send humans to mars or to send a robot to europa to drill under the ice I'd choose the latter.

Human missions are for sparking general public interest. Robots are for real science.

[AdrianF]

Combine them and send bruce willis and co. with it.

Adrian

[renormalised]

And if we want to expand into the solar system, which we must do to survive, we need both. Robots are not the be all and end all of "real" science either. Humans, on the spot, can do far more in a day than a robot, no matter how sophisticated, can do in a week. Robots are great for preliminary work, or for work in areas where it's patently too dangerous to send a human, but ultimately, it will come down to footprints in the dust that will greatly expand our knowledge and presence.

[Ric]

I reckon they should just get on with it, there will be no shortage of volunteers.

I think if the USA spent their defence budget on space exploration for one year we'd have spaceships flying everywhere.

Cheers

[bloodhound31]

DITTO!:thumbsup:

[RB]

They can call it, Star Wars....(Episode II).

:lol:

[renormalised]

Watch out for the Star Destroyers patrolling out by Saturn. We don't want the Empire to know what we're doing:P:P:D

<<<Imperial March playing in the background>>>:D

[casstony]

Given the extreme economic/financial stress the USA is under at the moment, I think we'll be lucky to see even a minimal space program in the coming decade. When voters are worried about putting food on the table the last thing they care about is walking on the moon.

A combination of low taxes and high expenditure has ruined State and Federal budgets, conspiracy between politicians and big bankers is funnelling much needed taxes into a black hole (to prop up insolvent companies and pay bonuses to banksters), and squabbling between Republicans and Democrats is preventing effective remedies from being implemented. The health and education systems are in shambles compared to ours and people are losing their jobs and houses.

Meanwhile the authorities use dodgy accounting to pretend things are improving, with a favoured tactic being to compare new raw figures to the previous months adjusted figure.

I can't see how there will be any US public funding of human space exploration for the forseeable future.

[renormalised]

Tony, it's just the same old rubbish being repeated over and over again. When will people wake up to the fact that these jokers we vote for (and the ones we don't vote for behind the scenes) are not fit to be in the positions they're in. The whole system is a farce.

Yep, they can't spend the money on the space program, or a better health system, decent education etc etc. However they'll spend a trillion dollars a year propping up puppet governments and unnecessary wars overseas, all for political and financial reasons.

I think the space program is going to be running very minimally for quite some time. Don't expect us to be back on the Moon (except maybe the Chinese...but even that's not a given) before 2030 and Mars...none of us alive now are ever going to see a permanent human presence there, and I doubt we'll be there before even most of us have retired. Not at the rate things are going at present.

[casstony]

Not too far into the future Carl, if history is a guide, the elite will be coercing us to buy war bonds to pay Halliburton to make weapons with which our conscripted children will kill the children of another country. Sounds far fetched until you look at what happened in the 1930's - very easy for a leader to redirect the anger of the impoverished toward an imagined external (or internal) threat. Truth is stranger than fiction.

Although, looking on the bright side, war does promote development of technologies that may have applications in space exploration.

[renormalised]

Totally agree. History is a great teacher, if only you listen to it. Which unfortunately most people don't. Actually, most are completely unaware of history, except as this vague thing about the past.

[Paul Haese]

Human exploration is the way to go for so many reasons. We have been doing it for thousands of years and for our species to survive we must find another place where we can live. Sitting on one rock is just asking for the odds to come up. Robots serve a purpose but humans can and do so much more. If exploration is given a mandate it will create so many American jobs and if allowed to continue the job growth from it will be exponential. The war industry in America is structured the same way. Building big ships in orbit will require a whole new industry and using those big ships to cart goods and materials from one planet to another is just going to open up the mining, construction and freighting industries to whole new possibilities. It is near sited to think this is where we should stay for the interim.

Incidently for national socialism to work one requires an enemy within as well as an enemy externally Cass.

[renormalised]

Well said Paul. It'll do more for the economic and social future of our species than what's going on at present.

Staying put here's like a game of roulette. One day, our number will come up and given the way things go, we won't be in any position to do anything about it. Hasta la vista humanity...dinosaur time.

[casstony]

Niether Naziism nor an internal religous minority are prerequisites for taking a country on the road to war - leaders can dream up any number of potential threats - all that's needed is a target to blame for your country's woes.

[renormalised]

One has only to look as far back as the last U.S administration to see that.

[[1ponders]]

To bring everyone back on topic.

obama's new space plan...Bad or Good for human exploration?

rather than the political motivations of governments and business behind the reduction in the US space program.

Thanks

[Davekyn]

Its all cool...and many thanks to you all for your replies. Were would we be without robots and where would we be without Human exploration. The reason I brought the topic up was after hearing a spokesperson on ABC radio national responding to weather the new Obama's space plan was a good thing or not for the near future of human exploration.


When I heard the figure of 9 billion (did I hear right?) being spent on the constellation program and now that it’s been axed, I could not help but think of the documentary "Mars Underground" & what Robert Zubrin could of done with that 9 billion instead.

"Robots are for real science" I can understand why you might think that. Consider projects such as the Vela experiment, which was to detect nuclear blast on earth & the resulting discovery of Gama Ray bursts. It’s been dubbed “Astronomy that almost didn’t happen” It took a Team of Humans to sift through data that the machine could not do for them. It was through human error and human incite that a major discovery was made.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/1997/ast19sep97_2/

Also Consider the how vital the information from the Apollo astronauts played, into furthering our understanding of cosmic rays and the role it has played in to protecting those in the space station today.

Telemetry and all its newly designed methods of speeding up the incoming transmissions may serve to give us a better feel for being there, but there is so much more to be gained with the presence of humans being there as well; even if it is to upgrade satellites orbiting various moons in much the same way we serviced the Hubble. Leave it to the machines…much easier, less effort but when it comes to real results nothing beats human intuition.

[astroron]

Nice post there Dave, well thought out and well put:thumbsup:
I am of the opinion that we need humans to do the final work,because only humans can reason and think.:)

[RobF]

One thing that gives me hope is that at least our technology improves year by year. Its hard to believe we got to the moon with 60s transistor/valve technology. I hope we do spread out off Earth before an unlikely cataclysm catches up with our species, whether its governments or privately funded. Surely if we can get into the astroid belt the riches there should be enough to get another "East India Company" going strong.

At least we've got those inscriptions on Pioneer 10 and the Voyagers out there somewhere.... :thumbsup:

[Neil]

Robotics today and in the future are great for the advancement of our knowledge of the universe, but what good is this if we don,t step up and use our initiative,after all we are human, they,re not! The mistakes we will make will be far outweighed by the time lost waiting for astro boy to act. It is the unknown that makes us brave, that makes us progress. I don,t care if its chinese,japanese or indians getting there first, after all arn,t we all in this human race? As far as the unlikely cataclysm that may not occur, how many million, or is it billion collisions take place in the known universe that we don,t know about. All the more reason for us to get moving.

[stanlite]

the thing i found most funny about human space exploration has to do with the Apollo launch rocket (saturn V). The engines used on that machine (huge things many times bigger then a house) are the most safe ever used according to the NASA tour guide i had (based on failure rates). However in testing NASA couldn't get the injection points right using scientific, mathimatical formula (ie. plans and engineers) So not wanting to give in to frustration NASA's scientist took a electric drill to there test engine and randomly drilled injection points and tested the results (to get the right thrust to heat to whatever else ratio). After doing this a few times they stumbled upon the correct mix of holes in the right places and the Saturn V had its main engine. The hole locations were recorded and replicated on all following engines and to this day remains the only NASA engine not to have failed. Well this was the story told to me by a NASA tour guide leave it up to you to decide if its true or not. But its sounds like NASA haha.

[renormalised]

They wouldn't be so bold or have that initiative anymore. A NASA employee, now, would be sweating over the protocols to put in triplicate forms to ask for a change to the plans, then they'd ship the whole caboose to another facility and have it locked away in a clean room for 6 months whilst the planning committees and the financial committees wrangle over how much it was going to cost and if they could maybe cut some corners without compromising safety, which they'd inevitably would do. Then after 6 Congressional appropriation committees, 6 heads of NASA meetings and 6 more planning committee meetings, the President would sign an executive order to can whatever program it was they were working on, then slash the budget of the agency by 10-20% and tell them to do more with less. Sounds like a familiar scenario, doesn't it??:)

The old days were the days when they had decent administrators in NASA and everyone was willing to take the risks needed to get the work done and the men/machines/probes in space. Too many bean counters and too many yes men in the organisation, now. Has been for far too long. 0.5 of 1% of the budget, or less, they spend on the space program. They spend more on Big Macs and advertising for the Super Bowl than they do for something infinitely better for everyone than cholesterol, obesity and mindless half time entertainment at a footy match.

No wonder they're going backwards, and fast. Maybe they should do what former NASA administrator Dan Goldin said he'd do if they found an Earth-like planet orbiting around either star of Alpha Centauri. At the rate they're back pedaling now, if they got out and pushed a Space Shuttle in the forward direction, they'd prove Einstein wrong for sure, because they'd instantly jump to Warp 9!!:):P

21.4 hours to Alpha Centauri....not bad going:)

[stanlite]

The scary thing i heard from the guide was also the sadest. That after the apollo missions finished up (and the need for the main booster engines with it) they dismantled all the surplus engines bar 6. Five are still usable on the "display" in Florida (a saturn V on its side is a sight to see) and the 6th they filled with concrete and put on display (this was the original test engine i believe). These engines remain to this day the only ones with enough thrust to lift heavy (human?) load to break orbit and reach the moon (with a human crew and supplies on board). So at the moment unlike most of the late 60's early 70's humans can't achieve escape volocity. The really really sad thing is the guide said they had lost the plans on how to make the engines and the only people with the 'experience' in making them are now all around 80 once they kick the bucket we will completely loose this ability.

Someone better find a diylithum crystal quick fast

[Davekyn]

One good point the spokesman hit on as a result of the Obama’s new space plans, or what I understood to be; was that Nasa would be forced to better spend the money. Hopefully that might spark a little old fashioned ingenuity. I had no idea about the drilling holes thing...wow...good work :)

[LeeSMaz]

rrr, forget the middle east and redirect the money to space, mine the moon. Find a mineral rich moon, asteroid etc and mine it. Surely the money spent on the middle east is better spent on reaching for the stars then trying to control something which cannot be controlled. Seed mars, venus with life from earth....Deep canyons could hold an atmosphere adjustable for earth life.