Meade at Andrews

[mick pinner]

it seems that Andrews will be selling Meade telescopes from August.

[allan gould]

That may be very interesting - thanks for the headsup Mick.

[MikeyB]

Andrews' website says they'll be offering Meade gear with a two year warranty - double the present duration, I believe.:)

[mic_m]

This is great news! Andrews’s prices are usually the best in Australia so it will provide some excellent price competition for Meade gear.

[mick pinner]

l'm just interested in seeing what buying power Andrews will have, if any, and if this reflects in the pricing. not that l have a problem with the current Meade dealer l buy off.

[JethroB76]

Is this because it won't come with an official Meade warranty and they're providing their own warranty, extended to two years?

[stephenb]

Should be interesting.... Good luck to them. With more dealers in the market, the winner will be the consumer.

[davewaldo]

I just spoke to someone at Andrews (might have been Lee?) and he says his prices will be similar or a bit less than the "other blokes" for the Meade scopes. But that Andrews will be including a 2 year warranty. Sounds like an interesting time ahead :)

[mic_m]

Hmmm… the current prices for Meade equipment appear to be quite steep. I’m a reflector person so I will use reflectors in my example to demonstrate my point. The LB16s cost between A$2599 and A$3000 in Australia which is very high when compared to the US price of US$1849; A$2100. The implied exchange rate from the lowest LB16 price is A$1 = US$0.71 (1849/2599). This would suggest that these telescopes were bought by distributers some time ago. Given these scopes sell in the US for US$1849 (A$2100), and are shipped all the way from Taiwan to the US and include a built in profit margin at that price, I don’t see why Meade telescopes here should cost so much more (unless there is an intermediary inflating the price). Given the AUD is strong and has been for some time, one would expect much lower prices from current stock shipments.

I would have expected Andrews’s prices to be better than “a bit less” than others. Take the following examples. The 12” GSO dob in the US is priced at US$799 (A$908), Andrews pricing for that scope is A$899. In the US the pricing for the Sky-Watcher 12” collapsible dob is US$995 (A$1131), Andrews pricing is A$1199. These are very fair prices; they match up with what those in other parts of the world are paying. Given the price of the Lightbridge 16 is US$1849 (A$2100), and assuming Andrews pricing of Meade products is comparable to their pricing of GSO and SW, I would have guessed that this might mean a LB16 at around A$2200. At that price, dealing with its large size and spending a bit of time and money fixing up its problematic primary cell may well have been worth it!

[OICURMT]

This is why I would never buy a scope here in Australia... bang for the buck just isn't there...

But please don't do as I do... I've got a scope back in the USA that's never experienced first light.. lol

[PeterM]

Gotta speak out here, for those who think dealers in Oz are making a killing then why not open your own store.
Simple fact is much of the argument falls around the exchange rate with simply no idea of the true transport, import costs etc. Then add local warranties etc.
Sure I work in the industry that's no secret but I tire of the continual overpricing nonsense I read. Dealers in Oz are here to make a fair living, they provide the touchy feely stuff and free advice that some use to their advantage before sometimes buying elsewhere, that's ok nobody is twisting anybodys arm. And then of course when something goes wrong with equipment bought elsewhere (usually overseas) they often become the first call for help.
Many dealers often support the many events around Oz with substantial sponsorships for raffle prizes, great advice and hands on viewing of new equipment.

In general in over 30 years of buying locally I have found Australian dealers provide a great resource and service.

As an example of high overseas postage costs I recently ordered a 250gig hard drive of data. for US $219 to complement a very well known planetarium programme I had just downloaded. At about the size of a small box of tissues the real postage costs to that seller to send by 7-10day delivery? $95US dollars! So go figure.

PeterM.

[sejanus]

I imagine companies get better rates then - I often buy camera lenses from o/s and the box they come in is a *lot* bigger than a tissue box and is usually about $50-$60 usd by 3-5 day shipping.

Also in my company (photography) I get lots of very heavy & large wedding albums sent to me from California and it's about $70 usd and gets here in 5 days.

[Ian Robinson]

Just to chime in here.

Very few local dealers buy their stock as One-Ofs or have it shipped from the manufacturer by 5day air-post or aircargo. ESPECIALLY BULKY stuff like telescopes.
The volumemetric mass on OTAs is murderous. So telescopes come by surface freight.

They order in BULK lots and it's shipped over by surface freight (in a container) and for the majority of shop front dealers and mailorder dealers ,they will order new stock maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

Prices here reflect large margins.

[davewaldo]

None of these calculations factor in GST. If Meade has to be sourced from the US, and then sent here your price $2100AU becomes $2310 with GST, which is much closer to current rates (and this factors in no shipping fee from the US). The reason GSO and SW equipment can be sourced at similar rates to the US is because we can get it direct from the factory. If Meade cannot be sourced from the factory than I think the current prices are not too far off. I really don't think telescope stores are making a killing. I know I wouldn't be keen to start a astronomy store :thumbsup:

[mic_m]

Davewaldo, you are indeed correct that I didn’t include GST, which will certainly increase the price; my original figure should realistically be $2310 (2100x1.10) for the LB16 at the current exchange rate.

Davewaldo, where did you get your information about where Meade products are shipped form? I am under the impression that Meade products are sourced directly from their factory in Asia. This information comes from Meade dealers in Australia that I have spoken to and it is often purported in online telescope forums. If anyone has definitive information to the contrary please inform all of us; it would certainly clear up what is otherwise a common misconception.

For anyone with the information, please also tell us all how the transport/shipping costs of Meade equipment from Asia to Australia are any different (more) than shipping a Meade product from Asia to the US? Remember the figure of US$1849 for the Lightbridge 16 in the US includes all transportation and importation costs (including local ground transport to the dealer). Why would this cost any more in Australia than it does in the US? Also included in the US price of US$1849 is warranty assistance, customer service before and during the sale and after sales service from the Meade distributer that the product is acquired from. This includes any theoretical salaries that are paid to staff at the local US dealer that assist with the sale or provide any after sale service to the consumer. There is an all inclusive margin factored in to the price of the product to cover these costs asociated with selling. There is also a dealer margin that is factored into the price as well. Why should Australians expect any different?

The preceding is what I do know and what I can intelligently speak about and rationalise as a consumer, I don’t however know how to price terms like “etc”, PeterM, which you have used twice to justify Australian pricing, just what are we all paying for when we buy a telescope with etc included in the price? The term “etc” could mean anything; it is totally unbounded! This is a part of the problem; there are people in the industry like you that expect consumers to be content with prices that dealers charge when terms that are beyond vague like etc are used to justify pricing. More transparency in pricing is key; if people knew what they were paying for and why they were paying it, there would be much fewer discussions here complaining about price.

Also, what is this “touchy feely” stuff that telescope dealers in Australia provide and how does it differ from the “advice” which you have also mentioned twice in your justification of Australian pricing. And how does this advice differ from the advice that local dealers in the US and every other country provide – how much of the price variation does this account for and why does it cost so much more than what is offered in other countries?

PeterM, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that local dealers provide assistance with products purchased elsewhere - usually overseas, you say. Based on my experience, anyone taking a telescope or any other piece of their faulty of equipment to a dealer to be fixed, that is not under the warranty of that dealer, will pay for it, and rightly so. When I was a beginner, a local astronomy store chard me $50 to collimate my reflecting telescope, so given the price I was charged for this basic task I am sure that if a dealer spent time working on anyone’s equipment that is not under their own dealer warranty it will cost the owner. I could be wrong on this point, but if I am, I have to ask; why should I pay more for someone else getting free assistance with their equipment without dealer warranty? This notion seems absurd; your saying that dealers charge their customers more for their products because they freely assist others that have purchased their products elsewhere! This is wrong.

PeterM, you also say that dealers give away equipment for raffles, indeed this is true, and a wonderful thing. However, vendors in the US and other countries do this also, so if everyone is doing this then why are Australian prices more than overseas prices as a result? If margins are tight in Australia and providing equipment for raffles means significantly increasing the price of goods sold to paying customers, why give away such expensive equipment, why not something a bit cheaper? Regarding raffles, if the cause is worthy, people will support it regardless of prizes, I know I do. Further, these “give aways” count as a tax deduction and supplying the equipment for raffles often benefits the vendor by creating vendor awareness; increasing sale volume.

The reason that a lot of people use the exchange rate as the basis of price comparison is because there really does not seem to be any additional cost to selling astronomy equipment here than there is in the US or UK or Canada (which all have prices that are largely consistent), so the converted US or UK or Canadian price (less VAT, for the UK and Canada) plus Australian GST is a convenient approximation as to what one might expect as being reasonable.

PeterM, you have used words “nonsense” and the term “no idea” to describe the contents of my last post and others like it, that’s fine that’s your opinion, but I feel consumers should be entitled to question the prices that they pay and should especially do so when there is vagueness or discrepancies that are apparent in product pricing.

[davewaldo]

Hi Mic_m,

I admit its only my opinion that Meade scopes in Aus would be sourced from the US. For instance, I believe GSO make the lightbridge, but I find it hard to believe they would be sending Meade scopes direct from the GSO factory unless it goes through the Meade sales rep or some other Meade pathway. And by going through these people you would incur additional cost.

Its clear that GSO and Skywatcher scopes are at a good price here from most vendors. So why would these same vendors decide to hike the price of Meade for no reason? I'm happy to trust that there must be higher costs for meade gear. Maybe I'm naive...

[astroron]

they could be made and badged at the same factory.
I worked for a firm that made the same product for two different companies, and just put the different labels on them.

[taxman]

Wow, Peter - you have just summarised why I avoid nearly all Australian dealers.

It is exactly this type of condescending, whingey attitude that puts me off many local suppliers (and not just astro gear either). I never get this "woe is me, you'd better be grateful" attitude from US or Asian dealers :shrug:

[stephenb]

I'm glad the topic of the GST / import tax has been mentioned. Any item imported into Australia worth over $1000 attracts by law, 10% import tax.

This can get missed in this arguement.

And this very arguement, which seems to have evolved from the initial post is repeated with monotonous regularity. For those who have raised this argument this time around, I'm not having a go at you, but it is a regular topic. And let's face it, this argument is often pointed at BinTel, although many may not want to use thier name in the context of the arguement.

My opinion is that Australian dealers (of any manufacturer) are not making a "killing".

Sure, I don't like some of the prices I have paid for gear in the past, but boy, have I been able to justify the initial cost, when weeks or months later, the product develops a fault, and the local shopfront dealer has gone over and above their already high level of customer service to fix or replace the product. I wouldn't have got that from with (a) buying over the internet from an Australian dealer with no shopfront, or (b) buying from overseas - both would had incured shipping costs to have the items returned.

One point I'd like to make is that, from my understanding, Meade and Celestron do not reimburse the local dealers for any labour costs they spend on warranty repairs. So if they have to factor this into the inital cost of the product, I personally have no problem with it. I have been in the service industry where this used to occur.

In the end the comsumer decides and I guess the market will filter out the dealers who "make a killing", but in the end the dealers I have used and trusted over my 25 years in the hobby, are still in business, if only just. I really cannot see why all the fuss. Shop around and get the best deal for yourself. If your happy, that's all that matters, isn't it?

[adman]

There seems to be two polarised views here - those that think that retailers in Australia are unfairly hiking up prices and ripping off consumers, and those that think that the prices charged here are entirely reasonable.

As always in these situations, I imagine that the reality is somewhere in the middle.

Australia is a much smaller market than the US or the UK, so the retailers/distributors order smaller volumes from manufacturers. When you are buying anything, the more you buy the cheaper they are.

Having said that. Australian retailers also know that ordering stuff from overseas can be a right royal pain in the a#$%. Long delivery times, high shipping costs, uncertainty about warranties, GST on items over $1K.

The price you are paying here is a combination of small volumes, and the removal of all the hassles or perceived hassles of buying overseas.

I am never sure what all the fuss is about. If you are happy to put up with the hassles of buying overseas, then you are rewarded with better prices. If you can't wait, or don't want to deal with the international issues, then you have no chioce but to put up with the prices charged here.

Simple market forces. If you don't want to pay the prices, then don't. It's your money.

[stephenb]

Very well said, Adam.

[ColHut]

Whatever the truth is, there is no reason to suppose that your claim above is true. :)

regards

[PeterM]

Not worth reply, oh bother I just did.
PeterM.

[mic_m]

Clearly there are people skimming my posts and not reading what I am actually saying and incorrectly inferring things about what I have said.

This is what I said in my second post for those that didn’t bother to read it and just skimmed …

If you read my 2nd post you will see that I said that I attribute the variation in Australian price to stock bought during times when the AUD is weak vs. when the AUD is strong. I read AS&T and on every dealer ad page it makes mention that prices may fluctuate due to exchange movements; therefore this seems to be a fair attribution as I noted in my 3rd post. That’s why I assume that some places are still selling the SW12 Flextube for over A$1700, while other places like Andrews are selling it for A$1199; older stock prices vs. newer stock prices. In my 2nd post I used the LB16 price for my example, and commented that it looks as if the price charged at present was for stock that was acquired some time ago; I came to this view especially since the prices have not changed in a while in spite of favourable AUD movements. I then explicitly said in my 2nd post that NEW shipments of product bought while the AUD is strong should not cost significantly more than what consumers pay in other parts of the world. I spelled out the reasons of why this is so in my 3rd post. That’s it, that my point; we should expect comparable prices to what others receive overseas for new stock received while the AUD is strong.

Glenluceskies, most nations and certainly the US, UK and Canada all pay a level of import duty on products received from overseas. Which is basically what I was saying in my 3rd post; Australia is not really unique.

Davewaldo, your argument that Meade products may come through an agent before arriving at local dealers may indeed be correct (I will readily admit that I don’t know that). But I would also imagine that it is the same for the US, UK and Canada, the products are imported by Meade or Meade agents before being sent to local dealers. Again Australia is not unique. In fact Meade is not unique in having intermediaries between the manafacturer and the dealer, in many cases SW products come through an agent as well; the SW agent in Australia is Tasco Australia, the Sky-watcher agent in the US is Sky-Watcher USA.

Adman, my comments are not about buying overseas, nor are they about paying or not paying the Australian price but about understanding why a NEW shipments of product would not cost less than older stock; refer to posts 8 and 9 and my comments above.

Adman, you may have offered some insight regarding prices with regard to sales volume.

[adman]

To put it simply, in just about any business, the prices you charge are are trade-off between making money and pi$$ing people off.

If you charge too little you will have many customers, but make no money. If you charge too much, you will have few customers, and still make no money.

It is all about pi$$ing off just the right number of people.

[Gama]

One other, and very important factor when ordering telescopes or other delicate parts, is, if it arrives broken, or never arrives at all, then bad luck. All your money has just gone down the toilet.
So you NEED to insure your goods as well. So now the shipping went from $350 (Small scope worth $3000) for just shipping, to shipping and insurance $550 for the same item, etc.

Theo

[OICURMT]

I wrote this massive, long diatribe of almost 2000 words... thankfully, I hit the delete button, as I suspect it would have raised more questions than answers... so, I decided to do a little comparison of my own... (BTW: Love Adam's answer... :lol:)

First, assumptions.

FOREX = 0.85 (currently at 0.8776 http://www.ozforex.com.au/cgi-bin/real-time-forex-charts.asp?ccyPair=AUD/USD)

Meade 12" LX200 ACF from Astronomics U$4499 (http://www.astronomics.com/main/product.asp/catalog_name/Astronomics/category_name/SH2RX8FAHP0M9KU9QPNE5T8P61/product_id/12210RU)
Meade 12" LX200 ACF from Bintel A$7499 (https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=7151)

Shipping LX200 single item @ U$653 door to door with U$5000 insurance (http://www.xsbaggage.com/)

Shipping @ U$4.73/cu ft bulk (rate chart, US transfer charter, 2009)
Bulk Insurance @ 3% of value.

Bulk shipping of 210 units per a single 40' container.

Disclaimer: Note that this is a Class 2 cost estimate with no contingency for shipping and insurance.
Interesting factoid: Shipping a 40' container across the Atlantic costs less then U$3000, but consumers get charged from U$8000-12000.

Let's begin...

[Bassnut]

OICURMT, out of curiousity, why are you assuming a starting price of full one off retail $US each for a wholesale purchase of 210 identical items ?.

[wavelandscott]

I've avoided jumping in but will add that the assumption that the "base" price for the USA and Australia is the same (or similar) is a huge assumption.

It is not unusual for "base pricing" on a number of items that I am familiar with to be higher (sometimes greatly) for the ROW (rest of world) compared to the USA.

Not just in price but also in terms...I am familiar with situations where US based dealers do not pay for stock until inventory is sold, where as ex-US distributors (wholesale, regional and dealer) must pay cash up front.

By all means feel free to buy overseas if you believe that it gives you more consumer value but don't denigrate on speculation that someone is making a "motsa" unfairly.

In my opinion, this oft repeated discussion topic is unproductive and can only create hard feelings...

To really bring some clarity to the futility let me suggest that instead of Astro Retailers that we consider that "plumbers" (doctors, lawyers, school teachers, food workers, farmers, mechanics etc.) in Australia charge too much and ripped me off when I lived there.

Now I am back in the USA I can see that plumbing (medical, legal, learning, food and automobile repair) is much less expensive here. All of the above service providers in Australia must be running a scam on everyone...

When I move back to Australia (some time in the future) I will share these "facts" with my local service providers, I am confident that it will be a successful approach to me getting a better price!

[rogerg]

It is interesting to hear Andrews is going to sell Meade. My first thought was one of surprise, that Andrews would think it worth it. Does Meade really still have the market share worthy of Andrews being interested in them? Andrews being Andrews I’m sure they’ll aggressively undercut the competition, but I don’t take that as an indication of other local retailers over-charging us, and it’s not necessarily best long term for us consumers.

I think I get ripped off more by my supermarket every week than I do by any local astronomy retailer. And that’s every week. On basic living expenses.

[RickS]

Is Meade sold through an exclusive distributor for Australia? Just wondering because in areas nothing to do with Astronomy I have seen high local pricing due to a disti making juicy margins courtesy of effective monopoly status...

[iceman]

Love these two quotes!

[casstony]

No comparison in that mix of professions. Teachers, food workers and farmers don't really get the opourtunity to rip people off. In contrast, our latest debt-fuelled real estate bubble has provided ample room for rip-offs in associated trades/professions.

Once my half-hour drain cleaning fee rose to $180 I purchased my own drain cleaning machine with 20 metres of cable for $540.

I'm not really bothered by the cost of astro-goods since they are luxury items; I don't have to buy them and there's currently a healthy amount of competition in the industry.

[PeterM]

Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!

PeterM

[OICURMT]

The exercise was not with respect to absolute costs, but relative costs. In particular, what an end consumer could achieve in the way of relative savings. I do admit (thus the "Classing" comment) that there is an inherent level of uncertainty over the entire process chain from source to sink.

I also recognize the "purchasing power" of the USA through "economies of scale", however, as a single source of product, delivered through a single source of branding, the absolute differences with respect to the overall wholesale price should be relatively minor. My rational? Part of my career deals with being able to cost on a global scale, taking into account FOREX, regional trends and commodity prices. In this particular exercise, I asked myself. "How much granularity is required in order to prove or dis-prove a point?" The answer, not much when viewed through the eyes of an end consumer. I didn't start the exercise to prove that thing were more expensive here due to inflated scathing pricing practices. I purposefully set the final target per advertised pricing and worked backward to a solution. The data I used is real, not made up. But as you pointed out, my flaw in the analysis is the retail angle.

Thus............. if you consider a "retailer" here in Australia buying from a "retailer" in the USA and then shipping a million dollars worth of product to Australia and then reselling at AUSTRALIAN retail prices, you can see that the Australian retailer still makes close to a 25% margin on the goods purchased OVER THE COUNTER in the USA. Thus, this exercise demonstrates the worse scenario for the retailer, not the best.

I hope this explanation was "clearer than mud", but somehow I feel I may not have been as articulate as I could have been.

OIC!

<Late Edit: I should state for the record that I do not consider a 25% profit margin to be excessive, considering the locked market that is Australia (read between the lines here)>
<Another Late Edit: I should also state that I've never actually shipped a single, individual container anywhere, except for personal effects. The quantities I've tended to deal with are much large in both volume and weight, thus, I can not *exactly* stand steadfast on my number without actually picking up the phone and making some inquiries>

[stephenb]

I guess the upshort is that if you are happy for the service, convenience and customer service of buying through a dealer, then go for it. The consumer has a choice.

I see the Andrews has their price list on their site now:

ETX-80AT-TC BB 80mm f/5 Backpack package. $549.00

ETX-90AT 90mm f/13.8 Mak. has UHTC and PEC. $999.00
ETX-125 125mm f/15 Mak. has UHTC and PEC. $1399.00

LS, Lightswitch 6" f/10 ACF SCT w/GPS and UHTC. $2399.00
LS, Lightswitch 8" f/10 ACF SCT w/GPS and UHTC. $3099.00

LX-90 8" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $2699.00
LX-90 10" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $4199.00
LX-90 12" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $5499.00


LX-200 8" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $4199.00
LX-200 10" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $5699.00
LX-200 12" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $7299.00
LX-200 14" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $10,999.00

ED Triplet 80mm f/6 APO refractor OTA. $999.00
ED Triplet 102mm f/7 APO refractor OTA. $1999.00
ED Triplet 127mm f/7.5 APO refract. OTA. $2599.00

Lightbridge 10" Dobsonian f/5. $1199.00
Lightbridge 12" Dobsonian f/5. $1499.00
Lightbridge 16" Dobsonian f/4.5. $2499.00

Additional models coming, too! ACF = advanced coma free. UHTC = ultrahigh transmission coatings. PEC = periodic error correction Prices and info shown may vary

[AG Hybrid]

ED Triplet 127mm f/7.5 APO refract. OTA. $2599.00

If you factor in exchange rate and shipping. Thats ~about on par with Optcorp at US $1999.

[orestis]

Hi guys,just wondering would they be selling meade eps aswell?

[terrynz]

Think you guys got it bad, try $28,800 NZD for a 16inch meade LX200r OTA. Consider they retail in the US for $10,000, it like WTF...
Do the math in NZD.

$2,600, Flights to LA for 2 return.
$14,000, OTA less sales tax (order going out of state)
$7,000, 2 week holiday with my wife tripping around the USA
$900, OTA to NZ, including insurance
$2,500 GST on import

16inch OTA costs $17,500 and for $29k we get a nice holiday. Frankly the agent here are a ripoff.

If broken in transit, DHL or however replace it. If broken by me, my insurance replace it via the NZ Agent.

So personally, I think Lee is doing us all a favour and the agency stuff is a load of cr....

[GrampianStars]

less GST really
just open the original packaging and take out the OTA
then it becomes second hand for importing purposes
say worth is $4K ;)

[mch62]

Can't figure this one out:question:
From Andrews for the Meade OTA with mount LX-200 14" f/10 ACF w/GPS, UHTC. $10,999.00 --- OPT USA price $7000 , no problems fair enough with costs.

Celestron14" EDGE HD OTA only from Andrews $11000---OPT USA $5800.

Am I missing something here or do I need to invest in a new calculator:screwy:
Fill me in please :shrug:
P.S. I have an 8" EDGE OTA and they are an excelent scope but not the excelent:P
p.p.s and lee is the best Celestron price in OZ i think.

Mark

[Octane]

Mark,

You'll find Celestron's distributor for Australia is probably taking a hefty cut of that.

At the end of the day, everyone has to make money, somehow. Vote with your wallet.

If Celestron cut out the distributor and sold directly to dealers, you can bet your bottom dollar (no pun intended) that the prices would be fairly equitable to our American counterparts.

H

[terrynz]

you need to read the law around GST. NZ Customs and the law don't care whether its new or old. ANY item over $500 inc shipping costs (they charge GST on that too!) gets slapped with GST on entering the country.

My Paramount ME landed in NZ got $2600 of GST. My celestron Axiom Eyepiece's brought off couldynights secondhand got $70 GST. Declare it as a gift and you pay GST...

The only way to get around this is to declare it as being under $500, reduce your GST by declaring a lower value or carry it on the plane and not declare it. Not sure you'll get away with the last one.

Problem with all of these is insurance. DHL etc won't payout more than it's declared value. You make it $400 and it gets broken... you've lost your money. Your home and contents insurance won't cover you.

Get creative at your own risk... Personally I don't mind paying the GST. , I just don't like being ripped off by their agents in NZ.