William Optics - Flattener 4 - Won't Fit My Nikon

[Logieberra]

Hey guys

I have screwed my Nikon D40 T-Ring onto the front of my camera.

The Type IV has threads that match the T-Ring, but I can't screw them together because the flattener hits the flash housing / area. The flattener is just too wide.

Here she is:

http://www.williamoptics.com/accessories/flattener4_features.php

Is there an accessory to space her out say 1" ? I hope so.... :(
Cheers,

Logan

[Octane]

Logan,

Do you have a T-mount? It's essentially a barrel on which one end goes the T-ring. The other end should be threaded as well.

H

[Logieberra]

Thx H.

I do have one, but the threds on the other end of the Type IV (the output end) are too small for the internal diameter of the T-mount.

I am using a 2" T-Mount...

[gbeal]

I'd be guessing, but the obvious answer is to put a slight extension so the flattener is slightly away from the camera.
The "gotcha" with this though is the optimum distance is then all up the creek. While the blurb says it is for a DSLR, I suggest that someone in R&D didn't actually try it on a DSLR.
I could be quite wide of the mark of course.
Gary

[Logieberra]

H

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are designed to scew directly into a T-ring, which then connects directly to the SLR right? This would be a clean connection....

The head of the flattner is just so darn wide!

[bmitchell82]

well definately its pushing that it is 100% for use with dslr's becaues it mentions them a fair bit. why its not fitting into you T ring is beyond me.

Oh also logan :) the kit you picked was right! :) you'll enjoy the ease it brings!

[UniPol]

Hi Logan,

It took a little while for me to work out your problem and it sounds like a case of bad luck fitting the Flattener 4 to your D40. I have attached a pic of my set up using an EOS 400D and EOS T2-Adaptor. As you can see, there isn't much room left under the flash housing and yours is obviously lower. It sounds like a spacer of some sort is needed.

Cheers,

Steve

[Logieberra]

Steve

You're hit the nail on the head! Thanks for taking the time to reply with pics. Very nice.

Yup, as you can see the flattener is very close to the flash housing. Mine touches on the D40.

So the question is... where do I get a female to male T-adapter that is like 1-2cm long (will look very similar to a T-ring in thickness).

And the other question, how will focus work with the camera offset by 1-2cm (assuming I can find the right adapter?)

Thx again Steve. People will understand what I mean now.

Cheers,

:)

[gbeal]

Logan,
I might be wrong, but I don't think what you propose will work.
The distance between reducer and chip is designed to be a certain amount, and you are looking to change/extend this. If it is anything like my Baader MPCC, it needs to be within +/- 1mm or so.
Can't hurt to try it though.
Just a thought, can you raise the flash, of course, without making it actually fire when you trip the shutter (great astro-party trick though, LOL)?
Gary

[MrB]

The FF4 has designed-in adjustment.
That is, the element can be moved in relation to the body to fix the element-chip distance.
I can't find my FF4(in one of many removalist boxes) but from memory it has about 20mm of adjustment so using a spacer shouldn't be a problem.

EDIT: I just looked at Stephen's second photo above, yep it has 20mm adjustment, from 66mm to 86mm.

[Logieberra]

Nice :0) Have you heard of a small female to male T2 adapter? I called Andrews and Bintel last Friday with no luck...

Good info guys. Keep it up.

Cheers.

[Logieberra]

Would these be the trick? And is there an aussie supplier?


http://www.alpineastro.com/eyepiece_adapters/eyepiece_adapters.htm#Extension Tubes

♦ T-2 Extension Tubes ♦
http://www.alpineastro.com/eyepiece_adapters/images/Extension40.jpg Two T-2 Extension Tubes, 40mm
http://www.alpineastro.com/eyepiece_adapters/T2-25AC_Med.jpg T-2 Extension Tubes, 15mm and 7.5mm
T-2 Extension Tubes enable you to securely set or vary the spacing between T-2 components. The tubes are available in three lengths, 7.5mm, 15mm, and 40mm, and are provided with an internal T-2 thread at one end and an external T-2 thread at the opposite end. Full internal threading and blackening kills any stray light reflections.
T-2 Extension Tubes are used throughout the ASTRO T-2 System™ to provide proper spacing of system components. The Alan Gee Mark II Telecompressor (http://www.alpineastro.com/optical_accessories/optical_accessories.htm#alan gee summary) may be configured in various ways that benefit from the ability to vary the spacing of the lens relative to camera or eyepiece. The extension tubes provide a secure way of varying projection ratios (eyepiece to camera separation), for the OPFA (http://www.alpineastro.com/digital_photography/digital_photography.htm#OPFA) System (http://www.alpineastro.com/digital_photography/digital_photography.htm#OPFA) (afocal and ocular projection), and the MPCC (http://www.alpineastro.com/optical_accessories/optical_accessories.htm#MPCC) makes use of the T-2 Extension tubes to accurately locate and couple the coma corrector to eyepieces. You can use the extension tubes anywhere you need to precisely space and couple any of the T-2 components, in configurations of your own design.
- T-2 Extension Tube 7.5mm (# T2-25C)
- T-2 Extension Tube 15mm (# T2-25A)





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In-stock (javascript:tablePopUpAdjust('/productInventoryStatus.aspx?inv=1', 350,550))
Baader Planetarium Varilock 15mm T-2 Extension Tube (http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=105-182-967-9984)[T2-25A] The Baader 15mm T-2 Extension Tube is part of the Varilock T-2 System for setting the exact focus at intervals. Determining the preload by adjusting the extension tube's millimeter scale to the desired length. The Baader 15mm T-2 Extension Tube incorporates both male and female T2 threads. Helps to set H-alpha solar filters and image field correctors with critical focus position. The Baader Planetarium Varilock T-2 Extension Tube is available in three sizes: 7.5mm, 15mm and 40mm.
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[Visionoz]

Logan

Give Steve Massey a call for the adapters - perhaps this might help: http://myastroshop.com.au/products/cam-adapt.asp

HTH
Cheers
Bill

[gbeal]

I have the Baader ones, excellent, and they 7.5mm might be as much as you need.
Gary

[MrB]

Logan, this drawing may be of use to you.
If you know the Nikon mount to sensor distance you should be able to work out a spacer size.
Note the '34.8'mm figure gives a max sensor to element distance of 86.7mm.

[Logieberra]

Thanks Simon. I hope that you had this pic lying around and didn't draw it yourself!!! Wow.

(Caveat - I'm new to all this astro stuff): I haven't used the Flat IV as yet, but I assume that the 66 to 86 incriments corrospond to the primary objective lens. I have an 80mm refractor.

I spoke with stever @ MyAstroShop and he suggested the 6mm spacer:

http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-005B

Assuming that I would normally use the 80mm stop, and because we'll be bumping her back 6mm with the spacer, I plan on adjusting the unit in 6mm to the 74 stop. How does this sound?

Or I may be way off because I don't really understand how the flattener's internal optics work... There are some complex elements in there...

Cheers.

[MrB]

The 66 to 86mm is the lens to chip distance.
That is, from the lens within the flattener to your camera's sensor chip.
The flattener is designed to work around 76mm but some people like to adjust it for best results. (I've heard some people getting good results around 73.5mm, but this will vary slighly depending on equipment used.)

You need to move the flattener further out from the cam, so I posted the drawing for you to see if you would still have enough adjustment within the flattener.

If your camera has a sensor to flange distance of 46.5mm (it does), and the T-Ring is 8mm(I'm guessing) and the flattener has a flange to lens adjustment range(according to the drawing) of 14.1 to 34.8mm then the lens to sensor range of the combination is 68.6mm to 89.3mm, and the ~76mm sweet spot for the flattener is reachable.

If you then whack a 6mm spacer(as suggested by Steve) then you have an adjustment range from 74.6mm to 95.3mm lens-chip distance, getting pretty close to the flatteners sweet spot, you have a bee's-thingy adjustment one way, and a ton the other.
If you used an 8 or 10mm spacer, the flattener probably would not work for you, not at its best anyway.

[Logieberra]

Thx MrB

When my adapter arrives I will chime back in. Thanks again.

Logan.

[Logieberra]

Guys, the 6mm adapter arrived from Steve. I took some images with her and it's not looking good :(

The images are filthy around the edges, and much worse then just the SLR camera / scope combo. The stars look like a 'clown hat balancing on a golf ball' - if that makes sense :(

Should I return the 6mm spacer and go for the 3mm?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4698562849_d9c1d02bdb_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4699194140_3e36bb3853_b.jpg

[bmitchell82]

MORE POWER CAPTIAN.......
scotty: I CANT PUSH HER ANY MORE, SHE JUST AINT GOT THE POWER....
warp 15! :S

[asimov]

Boy! That's pretty severe. I don't know the 1st thing about focal reducers but in my mind, with this particular FR being somewhat 'adjustable' the spacer ring is not the problem here.

Was this taken at this setup's recommended 'sweet spot'? Taking into account the spacer?

[troypiggo]

Whoah mate, that's pretty bad. Have you tried playing with the "dial" on the FFIV at different settings?

[Logieberra]

Yup, sure have, all the way froom 66 to 86 and everywhere in between :( with the 6mm space, and with no spacer (tough to screw on) it just keeps producing those clownhatballs!

Sheesh - I'm having some bad luck with equipment at the moment :(

Guys, what is William Optics like with customer support? What are your experiences? Before I go down the warranty path, what else could it possibly be?

Cheers,Logan.

[asimov]

Check out this thread.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=60329

[troypiggo]

Perhaps the reason you're getting the distortions is because you've stretched the distance between the flattener and your sensor? You haven't posted a picture of your setup, but on mine the sequence from camera to scope is:

40D->EOS adapter->WO FFIV->scope

No need for a T-adapter because the thread for one is already on the FFIV.

Sounds like your setup has an extra 6mm between the camera and FFIV somewhere, presumably between the adapter that connects to the camera and the FFIV? Man that's a bummer about the FFIV clashing with the face of your camera without some sort of extension.

[Logieberra]

Thanks Troy

I haven't been using a T-adapter. The problem is the William Optics advertises this unit as follows:

‘designed to cover full size DSLR cameras with clear lens aperture of 50 mm'. My Nikon D40 is a full size DSLR.

I have emailed Tim at William Optics. I am hoping they they will give me a store credit. On their website they have a strong customer service committment: “two-year, no fuss warranty and constant customer service!”

Fingers crossed :)


Cheers.

[Logieberra]

I've decided to sell her :( If you need this fella - check out the classifides:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=62483

Cheers,

Logan.

[Octane]

The D40 isn't a full frame camera.

Still, this shouldn't pose a problem, not to my knowledge, anyway.

H

[troypiggo]

Yeah, it's weird. Focus is being achieved. It's like it's over-correcting or something. Like a lens is back to front or around the wrong way or something?

[Logieberra]

I have spoken with Tim at William Optics. He is great to deal with.

I have the option of returning the item if we can't figure it out :(

Thanks William Optics. Great service.

[Logieberra]

Ok, so the plot thickens...

I just so happened to come across a google post of a UK astronomer (Brian) that uses his ED80 successfully with the AFR4 flattener: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/boatman (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/boatman) or http://donastro.blogspot.com (http://donastro.blogspot.com/)

This is now the 2nd person that I know of who can get his combo to work. Troy from this site is another.

Brian mentioned something very interesting, which may account for the STRANGE images that I get from this thing – at all settings on the flattener. Turns our that there are multiple versions. I wish that William Optics had product numbers / codes L

I assume mine is one of the originals, it was recalled after I'd had it for a week, because they fitted one of the elements back to front, they said. I didn't actually send mine back but waited for the new ones to be available and my supplier, sent a new one to me to try out. I did and preferred the old so I returned the new one to him.
The new one actually gave me more coma, was physically about 3" longer, and had a 1.15x factor that the supplier didn't tell the supplier about. He told me later that the new one was replaced by a new, new one of 0.8x, and I assume this is the version you have.

Please check out my pic again, and let me know if it’s probably the “element back the front” deal…

Cheers,

Logan.

[troypiggo]

Gee, wonder why that wasn't suggested before? (Look up 2 posts at #29) ;)

[Logieberra]

Thx Sherlock :)

Hmmm... would be great to test this unit with one of the recommended WO FLT refractors. I wonder if anyone here in Canberra has one and would like help me test her?

I have delayed sending it back to WO b/c they will charge me a 10-15% restocking fee. Seems a bit rich if the product was broken from the beginning! But given that I'm new to all this astro stuff I should assume that I'm doing something wrong, vs. slamming a reputable company like WO... Time will tell...

[troypiggo]

Try contacting them again and bargain with them, get them to agree that they'll pick up the tab if the fault is something like a lens being back to front or clearly a manufacturing fault, but you'll pay if it's something that's happened since purchase.

[MrB]

Yep, I've been having a whinge about this for some time.
They do the same thing with their scopes. There are 3 differend versions of the Megrez 90.
MkI, MkII, MkIII etc etc... how hard is that?
:shrug:

[Logieberra]

Guys

What an ordeal!

Thankfully we’ve come to the end of this one. Tim at William Optics has been very patient with me along the way. I ended up shipping the flattener/reducer back to WO in Taiwan. They just send me an immediate Paypal refund once she surfaced safe-n-sound. Great service.

The lesson here?

The perfect flattener/reducer combo is difficult to find, especially if you’re mixing different brands of equipment. In the future I’ll stick with reducers/flatteners designed for my exact scope, or ones with proven results (eg the Borg 0.85x flattner/reducer is nice combo with my Tak FS-60C).

I hope that this post helps other newbies out there.

Regards,

Logan.