View Full Version here: : Suggestion - Buy / Sell ~ Consider imposing > 100 posts before you can sell
09-04-2010, 03:41 PM
Just a suggestion, based upon the numerous for sales we've seen over the past few months, from new members, with outrageously good offers for sale.
Many web sites that have a buy and sell section don't allow members with under a 100 posts (or an peer ranking above XXX) to post for sale items.
I guess if a deal looks to good to be true - it often is, but maybe the moderaters / community here could evaluate this to make it a tad harder for scammers to target this community.
Agree entirly Matthew, it used to be that you had to have a least a few posts under you belt before you could post a For Sale Item.
Some of these people sell their stuff and you never hear from them again, just go through the members list and see all the zero posts.
09-04-2010, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I think the initial threshold was 5 posts before being able to sell.
09-04-2010, 04:18 PM
I agree. I was thinking about this all day specially after looking at that add last night. 100 posts may be too much as it's taken me about 5 yrs to get to my measly 274 posts. I think that a minimum must be set at least 20. It's hard enough to earn money to have it taken by a scammer.
09-04-2010, 05:25 PM
I also agree, its hard to keep scammers out without anything to stop them , 5 would be a bare minimum hopefully anyone with good reason to post a for sale without that could contact the mods and explain their situation (deceased estate of a member for example)
09-04-2010, 05:26 PM
I haven't heard of anyone not getting their purchase:shrug:
Has anyone been scammed:question:
09-04-2010, 05:51 PM
For a couple of years, you had to be a member for 1 month and have at least 5 posts before you could post new threads in IceTrade.
Those restrictions were put in place to stop potential scammers.
About 2 years ago (or so), the restrictions were taken away because it was more of a hassle to genuine sellers. Especially for community members who genuinely don't post much if anything.
Agree with Ron. There's been literally a handful of questionable for sale threads - I could count them on 1 hand. And in every case, they were identified before anyone lost their money (to my knowledge).
Less than 5, out of literally thousands of items put up for sale every year. With those stats, there's simply no justification to put the restrictions back in place.
The community here is very smart, very savvy and very wary of stuff that looks "too good to be true". That's the best way to be.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic?
If they had to wait for a month and have 5 posts just to sell their gear, if they wanted to never come back again, they'd still never come back again regardless.
And if they have zero posts, then they haven't sold anything.
The majority of any community don't post much if anything. It's always a smaller minority that are the most active. It's the same on every community I've even been a part of.
I'm not a fan of re-introducing any restrictions, for the reasons I stated above. However I'm happy to hear feedback from more members (on both sides) to see what everyone thinks.
09-04-2010, 06:14 PM
I have never seen a post where someone has said I have not received what I paid for:shrug:
I am sure if somebody had not received their good they would be screaming from the roof tops :mad2:
Some people just want to sell their goods, and this is the place to sell them:) and if the purchaser and seller are happy all well and good:):):)
09-04-2010, 08:46 PM
i have followed one recent thread where people seemed very suspicious-as it turns out someone i know bought the item in the end and all concerned seem happy...that transaction would never have happened with a post restriction
This place works so well because your judgement is usually spot on. I think you have made the right call here again.
But if we start to see an outbreak of scams, then I guess it should be revisited.
I don't have many posts, but I have bought heaps of stuff off the classified forums on this site (scope, mount, numerous eyepieces, filter,barlow, books and videos) and I'd hate to think that there would be a restriction on someone like me from selling similar stuff (as I have accumulated way too much). If there was a restriction linked to posts then it should be a really small number like 5, but no more than that.
Anyway my 2 cents worth.
10-04-2010, 10:21 AM
Agree Leon. 3,560 members with 0 posts to be exact.
Anyway the 7000-odd membership claim for this IIS is purely inflated with over 3,500 member never posting a single post. Most of those who have never posted in, say 2 years of their registration should be deleted.
10-04-2010, 11:46 AM
I'd try to refine that a bit. I can't find anything in the TOS which says anyone MUST post if a member, or how often.
I'm only a moderate poster :D so can imagine someone merely reading everything in sight, but nothing else. You could go on for years that way here, there is so much top-class stuff ;)
I think you would need to detect whether people had not visited for a long time, before zapping them. I don't know of course if that can be done.
10-04-2010, 12:41 PM
It would be reasonable to expect new members to post the item being sold before payment (but only on the first item) to demonstrate that they are genuine.
I "bought" an item a week ago. Once the money was cleared I got a message explaining why the item got too damaged to send. I was asked for my account details, which I was a bit reluctant to send, but did anyway. Haven't heard from him since and no money has been returned. Hopefully all is well and he's out of town, but it doesn't sit comfortably. I'm beginning to wonder how wise it was to give over my details. Here's hoping......
10-04-2010, 02:28 PM
Heck, trusting Bruce. I would be delving deep, and now rather than later. Yes you are likely right, but to me it stinks.
At least make some discrete enquiries with someone in the same area as the "seller", do it through a PM with one of the moderators or something, but DON'T sit on it.
hi i must inform you that i paid $500 for a specific item as advertised and got an entirely different article ,the seller claimed it was a mistake,but all efforts by me to get my money back including returning the mistaken goods were a waste of time and the seller vanished off iss.all attempts by me to engage the moderators assistance was a waste of time,with one moderator(he knows who he is) telling me that the item i was bidding on was worth much more money so i should have expected a mistake as well as acusing me of being a bargain hunter?......indeed i was referred to the terms and conditions of iss trade by all the moderators....clearly this problem needs tro be addressed by the forum,my suggestion is that the seller and buyer must exchange addressess and tel numbers by pm before money is sent,at least this way you can contact the other party....the alternative is cyberspace anonimity.
10-04-2010, 04:16 PM
Hi Bruce and Qld,
Sorry to hear this, I'm especially unhappy for you about the reported moderator's response (not that there is actually much they can do) .
I shall take greater care myself, as I have been lulled into a state of somnolence due to my experiences here up till now.
10-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Well in that case I'll put my hand up and be your first.
I paid and item never arrived. He swears he posted it but never offered a remedy when informed I never received it.
Should I scream from the rooftops that he is a liar? Who should rightfully bear the loss?
I've never sold anything on this forum, but have sold heaps on another forum.
When I ship something, rather than risk getting into the dilemna of who is responsible for a 'missing' or damaged parcel, I always insist on sending stuff by registered and insured post.
That way, hopefully, monetary loss is eliminated and both sides are (I hope!) left feeling the whole transaction is a lot more secure and less up-in-the-air in case of any damage or loss.
Having said all that, I've never had a problem with any parcels and I use Aus Post all the time. They may take forever, but they have always gotten it there for me ;)
Just my humble 2c :thumbsup:
Well I have actually trusted a member to pay for what he got, so I sent it off thinking he would do the right thing.
The money never came, it was not a lot, but the principal of the thing, has warned me to see the dollars in the bank before it leaves my place.
This was some time ago, and I never raised the issue and have never heard from him again.
10-04-2010, 07:11 PM
I'd be straight to the police, that's mail fraud. The feds could have easily found out who this person was and where they lived. However I don't think it's a moderators job to chase up bad trades unless directed to do so by the authorities. Maybe paying by paypal is an option then you have recourse, that would only have cost an extra $15 at most.
11-04-2010, 06:39 AM
While some of these stories are interesting and add weight to the suggestion that people should be careful buying stuff online, some of them are not really relevant to the original topic - that is, the SELLER having to wait before being allowed to post a new for-sale thread.
In fact some of those stories above were where the long-term member was the seller. It's obviously much easier to protect yourself when you're the seller.
There have been other suggestions about how you can protect yourself when trading online..
* Use (or insist) paypal,
* Use (or insist) registered post,
* Ask for their phone number and speak to them,
* Wait for the money to show in your account before posting
A general reminder from the TOS (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/tos.html) about using the IceTrade Classifieds (see section 10 for the whole list):
Persons holding out items for sale shall be truthful in their description of items for sale, and shall not be indemnified by the administrators or moderators of the site in respect of any claim that a purchaser may have against such vendor under any trade practices or sale of good legislation.
The administrators and moderators expressly have no liability for the transactions which may occur between members of the forum, whether through the medium of the IceTrade Classifieds, or otherwise.
Each forum member who purchases an item from another forum member, does so at their own risk and they expressly waive any entitlement to bring any claim against an administrator or moderator with respect to any such transaction.
11-04-2010, 07:56 AM
what does he owe you Leon Ill chip in :mad2: so the issue isnt the annoyance of spam posting (as yet, It may come to it, I forget how hard/easy it is to join, is the first post moderated?) but more in those who pop in for a short time and go, is it possible to be banned from the for sale/wanted's for some time or number of posts or?
11-04-2010, 09:11 AM
I have bought several items off IIS with no issue (including a $1500 purchase) I do however insist always that the item is sent COD where I then pay for it at my local post office - the seller also has to fill out a fair amount of personal details when sending. If the seller doesn't want to do business this way then I am not interested. It is not fool proof. I always exchange phone numbers before buying and ring to confirm the item has been sent. Sure there is no guarantee of what's in the box until its opened. Once you have paid Australia Post the seller is sent an Australia Post money order, so I guess there is a paper trail in the event of an issue.
COD slows the process in your favour after you have committed to buy and the seller must go through steps and they will be paid - no risk to them. If it doesn't turn up you don't pay. Be wary if COD is dismissed outright.
Not sure of weight or package size restrictions on this with Aust Post for COD.
For the most part if it is too good to be true then I always assume it is and take other measures to ensure the item and seller exist, maybe local family, friends, check white pages. Those that set out to scam rely on a quick response and $ transfer and it's not always the unwary that bite, just human nature.
So now we know of several members on IIS who have not received items they paid for, that is of concern and I feel for those who have lost $ but I don't see a link between having people post many times before selling and how that would have helped stop this. I don't see it as being the Mods role to get involved in sour transactions.
Buyer beware doesn't always save you. COD might help. Having the item sent by registered post may help in the locating a lost item but no guarantees there either. Staying vigilant, reporting what may look like suspicious ads and letting Mike and the Mods deal with it as they did recently seems a good start.
11-04-2010, 10:52 AM
I used to sell guitar gear on the old sold.com website and always used COD because I thought it was safe for both parties, although quite expensive for the buyer if only a small item. Unfortunately, one 'buyer' wouldn't collect his parcel from the Post Office, so it was eventually returned to me by Australia Post, with postage both ways and COD fees all payable by myself. I didn't do that again.
11-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I'd rather not sell an item than be bothered mucking around with COD.
11-04-2010, 11:01 PM
Stephen! No where on this site does it state 7000 active members, it just says that we have 7000 members.
Clubs all over the world have a membership list but most of the time only a small proportion are active participants.
Most of those who have never posted in, say 2 years of their registration should be deleted
Are you going to do the deleting:question:, is it really worth the effort:shrug:
11-04-2010, 11:12 PM
If you try and search without signing up and logging on you have to fill out one of those anti-robot code boxes everytime. On CN you can't search without signing up and logging on. I don't see the problem with non posters myself.
12-04-2010, 07:11 AM
Where did I mention "active" members, Ron?
In the end 7300 members looks better than 3000, doesn't it?
12-04-2010, 07:54 AM
Stephen! WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
If looks is all you are cribbing about, it's a bit sad.
As I said are you going to do the deleting?
I bet that cloudy nights does not delete members who do not post after a certain amount of time.
12-04-2010, 12:29 PM
I recently sold my long standing ad of a Robotic Lawn Mower (yay me!) for $2000 and the buyer very smartly asked me for verification that I was who I said I was and yes, I had the item with me. I supplied him with photos of me and the mower as well as proof of identity with licence but identifying details blacked out for MY security.
I did not ship the item until the money was deposited and this was only done after I had quite rightly put in writing that I would send the item and provided my address and knew his address and contact details.
All very sensible and all above board. Everything went smoothly and I kept him in the loop as to the delivery time, tracking number and company who is carted it etc.
The key to anything like this is to communicate and make sure the buyer AND the seller provide identifying information that can be verified.
I completely understood his request to identify me and sight the product to ensure he got what he paid for, in fact I commend him for doing so and I had no problems with the request, after all, it was a lot of money.
The difference is that I am an honest seller with nothing to hide and unfortunately there are some people out there who aren't. Not saying that I have any experience of this here, as all the items I have bought here have been fantastic, I am just saying to be wary, be informed, be smart and you won't have a problem.
This website provides a bulletin board for users to post items for sale, as far as I am concerned, (regardless of the legalese needed in the TOC), their responsibility stops there. This is not Ebay but a community forum of like minded individuals. It is no different than buying a chest of drawers from a flyer posted on a for sale board at the local shopping centre.
As with anything you buy, there is a certain risk. The secret is to learn how to minimise that risk by either buying from a dealer (who aren't allowed to sell on IceTrade) or take the chance online. Sure, you might get stung 1% of the time, but you simply have to weigh that up with the potential saving involved.
Importantly, back to the point of the thread, the first thing I notice about new posts for sale is the seller's post count and alarms start ringing if it is low and I am wary before I even scroll down to read the contents. My gut is an often overlooked early warning system which I have learned to trust as I have become older. I don't think a restriction on the minimum post count before sale is a good idea as it would exclude people who see an opportunity to maybe sell something they dont need but go elsewhere because its too hard to sell it here.
Bottom line: Human Nature being what it is, if you are an adult, who uses the internet to any degree and trust everything you read and you don't protect yourself, then sooner or later you WILL encounter untrustworthy people who only want to rip you off. It is naive to think otherwise.
Sorry for the length of the essay
12-04-2010, 01:53 PM
Have to agree with you. If you cant get a prompt and clear reply to succinct questions or they start to spin a line about something you have not asked about then I'll purchase direct from a dealer or forget about it.
14-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Its quite possible that someone may sign-up in order to only to buy / sell equipment. That seems perfectly legitimate.
It may also be reasonable that, like other fora, a modest 'subscription' is charged for those wishing to use the buy and sell section.
The subscriber would then have to supply a legitimate address/contact number. Not fool-proof admittedly, but more so than a post limit.
14-04-2010, 05:52 PM
There are also others like myself who contacts via PM only for purchases on items put up for sale by sellers as I want my transactions as discreet as possible
I can see not benefit in imposing a limit on minumum posts as it is not a mechanism that guarantees the honesty/integrity of the seller! As someone else said here, it's best for the two parties to communicate and verify each others bona fides before parting with one's money - after all the seller has to give me the bank details to bank the payment into and there's already a paper-trail so if anything goes pear-shaped at least the authorities can trace the account-holder's address etc; unless of course the individual is so great a scammer that even the banks get hoodwinked in allowing the person to open an account without proper 100-points ID!! in which case I'll have to consider that I've gone to the casino and threw a bad hand of the dice and lost!!
My 2cents worth
14-04-2010, 07:36 PM
I've bought quite a few dollars worth of stuff (and sold a lot less dollars worth) in the last 12 months on IIS.
I agree with Chris's sentiments - I go with my gut feeling on the issue. I'm probably naive and will get burnt at some stage. I'd be unlikely to purchase an expensive item from someone with a limited post count.
It is a great resource to have this site available for trading. To tie this back to the original post, I would support the need for a minimum time for registration and post-count to help sort out the wheat from the chaff.
15-04-2010, 06:50 AM
A good thread,glad its been bought up.I think 100 post before you can sell is
far too harsh,I am other photography sites a lot less than this one,and they
want minimum of 50 before you can sell,thats very difficult,for people like me
that dont go on often,However I feel around 20 is fair,also a good point has been bought up here-if you dont post a post in say three months,you should
be deleted,I think thats fair.I have enjoyed selling and buying of this site.
It has all been very good,I even sold a bundle of timber I thought I would never sell that here!I agree with a previous poster that say half the number
that are belonging to this forum,never post,or only once,I think the moderators
should look at a the list,and see how many.or few a person has posted,and if they havent posted,be deleted.
Yes,its a very sad fact,that some will see sites as easy targets and rip people off,my only guide has been -if it does'nt feel right-dont do it.
I always look at how many posts a person has done,and then looked at a few of there posts,If I have never heard of them,Fortunatly all my purchases
have been of BOMBOs or other S.E QLD chaps,that I know-this helps
15-04-2010, 07:43 AM
What do you gain from deleting accounts of people who haven't posted in three months?
15-04-2010, 08:06 AM
Nothing, and it will never happen.
15-04-2010, 08:07 AM
Just thought of something re the 100 posts also, what's to stop someone just posting a smiley on a thread 100 times or on 100 threads to bring their count up? nothing, so therefore the 100 posts isn't really a deterrent.
15-04-2010, 10:45 AM
Well-if someone posted 100 smiley:) faces,and then put up a 8 inch TAK refractor for two hundred dollars,would you buy,Chris???
I think people are just making suggestions,Chris.
It would appear that some people,like Leon and the chap that does music,have
unfortunatly been duped,Yes-Chris your right-no matter what safe guards are put in place,someone honest will be dis advantaged and fraud will take place.
I personally believe that 20 posts,before you want to sell something is not unreasonable.
I have sold everything from a$1500 telescope mount to strange furniture items on this site.and all of the buyers,that did'nt know me=checked out my posts.and asked a few questions,It soon becomes apparent to anyone in the know,-that if you cant answer simple questions on the item been sold,its usually a good indication something is'nt 'right'.
Such a shame some people have had bad experience on buying and selling on this forum,its the first I have heard of it.
15-04-2010, 02:14 PM
For me the real world situation is that I personally know quite a few people on the IIS forums and if I were ever to do a dodgy deal on someone I would loose overnight some of my most valued aquaintences. And quite rightly so.
That I couldn't have happen as I've had more than a few great laughs and memories at star parties and dark night go-aways than I would ever jepardise for a few dollars. Some friends you don't want to lose.
24-04-2010, 08:36 PM
I have bought and sold quite a bit of gear through IIS and have never encountered a single problem. The only rule I use is to buy from people I have had conversations with on the forum and who have been around a while and I always request registered and insured post. If I am selling I go out of my way to present the item warts and all in the ad and will only post the item once the money is deposited and showing in my account. Again I will only ever send goods by registered and insured post and spend a little extra to make sure I recieve notification when the item is delivered. I let the buyer know when the item is sent as well as the registration number. That said I still think it would be a good idea to have some sort of registration system in place to allow people to sell on the forum and I think this would be far better then restricting people based on post count.
:) well it has made my count thread add up :lol::lol: and it has made people here know that im a happy person :lol: Would you purchase something from me :rofl:
I dont think the thread count thing if it was 5 posts or 100 would make much difference, there is nothing to say that if you are a member that you have to post in the forums. i know i could spend hours in here just reading stuff without posting one post :P But you can see when they logged in last and there recent activity on IIS
I think as a buyer and a seller just do your homework first :thumbsup::D
25-04-2010, 05:14 PM
Couldn't agree more Jen (how do you find all those emotions, is that what they are called??), basic homework. It is a small tight-knit community, and even if you are new, normally someone here already knows you. We were all new here at one time or another.
The other thing that helps is that one smelly deal is always remembered, and the 100 sweet ones rarely recalled.
If in doubt, ask someone, via PM, if the person you are looking at buying from is on the level.
Contrary to what Mark does I have often sent the item well before the money showed. Yes, one of these days I will get burnt, but until then, I believe.
25-04-2010, 05:56 PM
But then again some people do not acknowledge that they received the money which to my mind stinks.:(.
After I have received the goods I acknowledge that I have received them with thanks:thanx:
28-04-2010, 11:50 AM
On other forums we've had a 'trader rating' system where traders can leave honest feedback about someone they've either purchased from or sold to etc ...
It is a great system (much like the ebay ratings) that allows people to make decisions based on minimum ratings etc for the relative dollars and risk they are taking.
Generally speaking you can spot a 'too good to be true' scenario - but this system can help you know if there is a genuine 'lost in the post' scenario or a rip-off in progress and react accordingly.
Attached is my trader rating from another forum.... a rating summary is displayed with your username and personal info when posting - so people can see quite easily and quickly how long someone has been a member and if they've built up a history of being an honest buyer/seller.
Just my 2c.
29-04-2010, 07:37 PM
How about a seller verification system that is displayed as 'seller verified' when their add is posted. If the seller isn't verified, then it wouldn't display someone as verified.
How to verify someone's details to the forum is an entirely different matter. Any information supplied by someone to become verified would be held in confidence and not openly available to the public or forum users unless needing the intervention of the forum administration (for obvious fraud reasons)...
Suggestions could include: a copy of a driver's license (if available), or a copy of a passport?, a copy of a utilities bill?, a declaration of identity by a commissioner of the peace?
Being realistic - something simple that could be provided by someone to prove identity, along with a contact phone number etc.
We rely on honesty in all these types of transactions, and there has been ample evidence of late to suggest that a few dishonest people ruin everything (from cheapskate behaviour, rudeness, failure to pay, dissappearances etc) for the majority of forum users.
I think you are on the right track.
How about a small paypal donation to verified by IIS. It seems to work well on Astromart.
29-04-2010, 08:27 PM
I think you guys are making a "Mountain out of a Molehill":confused2:
The amount of DUD transactions on iceinspace is Miniscule as far as I am aware, so why are you people carrying on as if it is Wide spread:shrug:
Do your ****** homework and use your Common Sense when you see something for sale, or someone contacts you to purchase something.
The system is working OK so stop Trying to make it more complex:screwy:
The thing to remember is some of the stuff we are trading is very expensive. i.e. not miniscule.
If something simple can be done to make it safer, then it should be done.
29-04-2010, 09:08 PM
Do your ****** homework and use your Common Sense when you see something for sale, or someone contacts you to purchase something.:rolleyes:
Would you sell an expensive article to someone who joined iceinspace the day you put the article for sale without finding a few things about them:question:
I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs
A few of common sense things to do would be
(1) GET A PHONE NUMBER AND TALK TO THE PERSON
(2) Make sure the money is your the bank before sending.
(3) NO Post Office Boxes without the person signing for it( registered mail).
If you are buying something from someone who has just joined iceinspace to sell some thing, then Number (1) APPLIES.:thumbsup:
Ps before this thread was started no one as far as I am aware,had come forward to say they had been ripped off,WHY:question:
29-04-2010, 09:32 PM
I've read this thread with interest...just to see where it might lead.
While there have been several great suggestions on how a site might be made "safer" for buyers and sellers I think they all miss the mark.
IIS was not set up to be a "trading post" but was established as a forum where like minded enthusiast could come together and discuss our hobby (and occassionally a few other things too).
The buying/selling come up later and was added (from my recollection) as a convienence to members and also to keep the forum threads "pure".
To my understanding (and way of thinking) this site was never intended to become a marketplace.
There are many marketplaces and their purpose is to facilitate the buy/sell/trade and swap goods transactions.
I think of the buy/sell section here as nothing more than an announcement board with little difference to its purpose than to act as a telephone or light pole for us to hang our for sale signs on...if people see my sign and want to buy great...I would not expect a bulletin board (or pole) to provide anything else except a place to make my sign visible to people passing by...and in my opinion that is no more or less what IIS does (and should continue to do)...
30-04-2010, 07:14 AM
I really don't see the need to change anything.
The site is working just fine as it is and imposing a post limit on members posting an item in the "for sale" sections just gives the mods something else to police.
If any IIS'er is thinking of buying second hand gear, whether off another IIS member or Fleabay, they just need to use some common sense. I think most of us have some idea of the relative worth of used equipment and can make up our own minds about the prices being asked for goods on sale. No one is being forced to do anything.
30-04-2010, 08:19 PM
Maybe it is time the "for sale" section to be removed. It would stop all the problems in its tracks. This is as much of an answer as all the other suggestions, as the section may be getting too big for the site and management to control.
30-04-2010, 08:46 PM
I'll repeat what I said before--the particular transaction that seemed to create all the angst-I think-it turns out was perfectly legit..the seller did not have any posts before and probably will never again-but I happen to know the buyer and last I saw him, he was grinning from ear to ear because of how happy he was with his buy...all I say is, exercise caution by all means, but just because someone has been haunting the forum doesnt mean they are more scrupulous then someone who has dropped in to get rid of an unwanted astro item
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