Losmandy Gemini Alternatives.

[Tandum]

Are there any alternatives to a gemini system for PC GOTO control of a losmandy mount?

I see an Argo Navis kit for losmandy mounts but it's not cheap either.

Is there another way?

[Hagar]

Why would you want anything other than the Gemini? Cost? You get what you pay for. Its not just a control system it also comes with a set of servo motors, not steppers, The control system itself has a lot of very nice features not found on many control systems. When setup correctly it provides a very accurate and easy to use interface. There have been a lot of complaints from people about the hand controller and it's use but believe me it is simple and very easy but you need to get used to it. Meade, Celestron and Synta all make control systems for there mounts but not one of them gives you the feedback or accuracy of the Gemini.

As for your original question, I'm not sure but believe there will be something else out there. It may not be specifically made for the Losmandy mounts but may well work with them.
The gemini system can be fitted to other mounts with most parameters adjustable. Try the Losmandy Yahoo group.

[wasyoungonce]

The Losmandy user group has had a few people adapt other systems...but they all appear add ons IMHO.

From my limited GEMINI experience (all of 4 days worth)...it's clunky (haven't run it outdoors yet) and it's not intuitive but it works well.

You can also run the GEMINI by GCC (http://www.docgoerlich.com/GCC/) or the new ASCOM (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gemini_Driver_Beta/) drive just released in lieu of using the handset. Although you can still use the handset for inputs when running either of these (well you can with the new ASCOM).

The new ASCOM allows direct control if you are not happy with the Handset. You can even add on a joystick controller with the new ASCOM driver. This driver also allows keypad inputs when in use as well. It appears a pretty good alternative.

GCC does all the ASCOM does...but IMHO it does appear very clunky to use as well. It was designed by the GEMINI developers so that probably explains that.

From what I can see the new ASCOM pretty much does all the GCC does (although the new ASCOM doesn't have user gear ratio settings) and maybe even some more in that you can add in joystick controller & assign buttons.

GEMINI as a system is OK...let down by a one line handset but the new ASCOM & or GCC make it a lot easier to use the system.

Anyway...that's my 2 cents worth.

[leon]

Mate if you have the Gemini Go To, and it is understood it can't get any better than that, as Doug said the hand control is a breeze once one gets the hang of it, and if i can handle it, anyone can.

Leon

[Bassnut]

Yes the Gemini is a bit hard to get used to to start with, but becomes intuative with use (as with anything I guess). After some 3 years constant use, I could operate it with my eyes shut. I got so good with the handcontroller, that it was faster to sync on power up and slew to something (in the end thats all you do night after night) than bother with PC control.

I wouldnt bother with anything else, its made for Losmandy mounts out of the box, is proven and reliable. Local support is very good, I had 2 serious faults (my fault) fixed in less than 2 days by ATS.

Many applications have dedicated drivers for Gemini, not just ASCOM, which allows for tight integration with special features not available with ASCOM only controllers.

[Tandum]

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to justify another $5K :)

[Bassnut]

Well, I can understand that, its painfull, but given its an important uttterly utility device, its not something you want to fiddle with and worry about on a nightly basis, theres far more agrivating things to worry about. You only need a couple of things to become long term bothers, and suddenly you find half your imaging time is eaten up fighting equipment every night.

A Losmandy mount with Gemini holds its value well too (compared with a butcherd oddball set up anyway), its a standard ppl are looking for when you come to sell it.

[Hagar]

I think you will find the cost has fallen quite a bit along with the rise in the Dollar. I believe tha aftermarket add on is abot $3K to 3.5K and is cheaper when you purchase at the same time as the mount.

[Ian Robinson]

Try AWR in the UK .... http://www.awrtech.co.uk/

I think you'll find something there.

[Tandum]

I see G11 for $3.3K or $4.8K which puts gemini at ~$1.5K (bintel prices). Imported OPT prices with gemini are similar.

[netwolf]

The simplest solution is go Gemini, and if you do pay the extra 200USD and get the Maxon motors. Its cheaper to buy with the mount.

I have the Sitech System with Gemini standard servo motors.

There are quiet a number of Stepper based systems like th FS2, Pulsar mostly from europe.
Most recent of these is the Littlefoot Elegance using the swiss ESCAP stepper motors. This system seems to offer some extra control features, like network control, DSLR control, Focous control, etc etc.

I have used my mates Gemini and I dont like it very much because of the Handcontroller. But as others have pointed out the new ASCOM control seems promising.

[Tandum]

Excellent Famin, this is the first real alternative to gemini so far and I've found more details on CN. (I really should register there so I can search). If I move on this, I'm thinking this mount will stay put so will always be on a pc anyway :)

[netwolf]

Robin,

If you want to find out more about the Sitech controller then join these yahoo groups.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sitechservo/
and there home page of the maker Dan Gray
http://www.siderealtechnology.com/

Also take a look at this conversion done by the group moderator.
This is his conversion of his G-11
https://sites.google.com/a/sitechservo.info/chuck-shaw-s-site/pictures-of-my-g-11-converted-to-sitech-servos

Also have a look at what this mount can do with a Gurley Encoder added using Sitehc Tick mangement. Note this is similar to what the TDM product does.

https://sites.google.com/a/sitechservo.info/chuck-shaw-s-site/Home/g-11-gurley-mounting

Note that even with these mods, Chuck has advised he can still switch the mount back to factory default.

And i reccomend you download and read these documents
http://www.sitechservo.info/controller-manual


But I would still say the easiest option is Gemini and it has a large userbase of Losmandy users.

[Barrykgerdes]

I have had a G11 with the Gemini control system for two weeks now. It is sitting on the floor beside my computer so I can learn how to use it.

I have written a basic control system to help me to fathom out the hand controller.

I have found that the hand controller is the thing that causes the most problems with new users. Its seven button control system leaves a lot to be desired for a new user.

After using a LX200 for fifteen years it is even more difficult. Both systems use the arrow keys to move through the menus however the LX200 has some extra buttons to initiate functions whereas the Gemini has to do this with just the arrow keys and the menu key.

This has been achieved by prograqmming tricks that work well once you get the hang of it. The keys at first don't seem to work in a logical fashion. eg using the right arrow to scroll through at menu tree does not always step back a level when you press the left arrow and the "enter" function occurs automatically when you reach the end of the menu tree.

The programming language is a sub set of the Meade protocol which means that the basic entry of data can be done with computer programs that will drive a LX200. It also allows simple programs written in Basic to address all the functions.

I have printed out the Gemini manual. It is difficult to read on the computer, much easier when you can flick back and forth through the pages of a book. Everything you need to know is in the manual.

The GCC program is useful for control of an operating system but the start up needs to be done from the hand controller. Just like the LX200 however the computer can be connected to the gemini from start to set some of the parameters whereas the LX200 must be aligned first. I don't think the GCC program is worth the 40 euros they ask for it. I have written my own program that does all the same things in a manner that I am used to.

Barry

[multiweb]

I second that. The very first time I used the hand controller I thought wtf? 50 menus and sub menus and 4 buttons? :shrug: After using it for a couple of years you don't even think about it. It becomes second nature. Get used to it. The more you use it the faster you'll tame the beast :thumbsup: As far as Gemini vs. other systems goes, there is no substitute for Gemini.

[Octane]

Agreed with Fred and Marc. It does not take long at all to become accustomed to the way the menus are laid out.

And, in actual fact, you will only use a very small subset of the entirety of Gemini.

I love it, and, I can't see myself moving to another system. The Gemini just makes sense.

Regards,
Humayun

[rsbfoto]

Hi Barry,

I do understand your frustration with GCC as I thought in the same way as you are after having bought GCC. I did no know what to do with it for about 2 years ...

It is not correct that you need the handcontrol for starting up before you are able to use GCC. I have 2 Losmandy G11 sitting in my Observatory and since one year I have not used the Handpaddle anymore. I do start up everything remote from a PC.

... and about the € 40.00 we can discuss :lol:

I would recommend you get more used to the Gemini Logic and you will see that it is quite intuitive ...

[Barrykgerdes]

Yes you can start from the computer without the hand controller. but I found it easier to turn the Gemini on and let it do the warm start/cold start routine before I changed to computer control.

Do you mean that GCC is intuitive or the hand controller. GCC is OK but I disagree that the hand control is intuitive although it can be fairly easy to familiarise yourself with its logic. I have a standard test for devices that are intuitive. I turn them on and see how far I can get without reading the manual. If I can make them work they are intuitive otherwise they are not. Simple as that!

As for the cost of GCC It is probably very reasonable for most but as I already had a program to drive an LX200 I only had to rework it slightly to make it work with the Gemini and it does all the same things with all my own databases.

Like any equatorial mount it needs to be polar aligned for proper use. In an observatory this can be very precise if on a permanent mount. This will remove all the problems with the initial start. The warm restart is all that is needed for it to be aligned.

In the field I have initially found it tedious to do the polar alignment process but this will become easier as I get used to it. This process is much easier from my light poluted home location because the alignment stars are quite obvious. But in a dark location these stars do not stand out as well and can be missed if you are not familiar enough with the sky. Once alignment has been achieved operation is easy.

Barry

[Geoff45]

Quality remains long after price is forgotten.

[wasyoungonce]

Looks as in the beta GEMINI ASCOM (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gemini_Driver_Beta/) also has this feature.

Haven't tried it yet.



Edit:

Yep "boot system" feature works with ASCOM beta.

[mick pinner]

l bought a G11 with Argo Navis and not for a minute do l doubt Gemini is a great unit the A.N with G11 is superb, no strain on the motors and object positioning is great.

[wasyoungonce]

Hi Mick...is your driven with the Stepper motor system?

Isn't that restricted to 16X Sidereal max drive or do you un-clutch the axes and move them?

Sorry for my Knob-ness.

[mick pinner]

unclutch the system and push to co-ordinates, tighten the clutches and your away, could not be simpler. your welcome to come see the system seeing your so close.

[wasyoungonce]

Yep be up with you soon to pick up counterweight..if that's OK.

In the mean time I'm trying to learn my way around the GEMINI & mount.

[rsbfoto]

Hi Barry,

If you have a permanent setup and you did NOT move by hand the mounts RA and DEC axis you should ALWAYS use Warm Restart and NOT Warm Start.

Warm Start is used after you loosened the clutches and made something manually at both axis !

A Warm Start with Gemini requires as CONDITION that the Counter Weight Shaft is in vertical position and the Telescope is pointing South in your case !

If you do a Warm Start in ANY other position you will shift the whole alignment model as well as your LIMITS !

[Barrykgerdes]

Sorry if I said warm start instead of warm restart. It was just a typo in a comment I added at the last minute. I was just refering to the difference in operation from a permanent mount and a portable mount. I will edit the post to make it correct. In any case as I park the telescope at the CWD position after a session it really does not make any difference.

Barry