EQ6Pro vs GM8 vs G11

[koputai]

It's almost time to buy a better mount (to get into astrophotography)
and I'm weighing up the contenders.
Lots of people around here seem to get awesome results from the EQ6
Pro, yet a lot of folks say it's a beginners mount, and you have to get a
Losmandy.
In Ron Wodaski's book, he says the Losmandy GM8 is useless, and even
the G11 is a mediocre performer. I'd say his book was written before the
EQ6Pro came out, so I don't know what he'd say about that mount.

As far as the load it needs to carry:
Guide camera wise, I'm thinking of running a 60mm or 80mm refractor as
a guidescope with an SBIG ST-5C guider as I already have these. For the
imaging scope I'll use my existing 8 inch Newt for a while, then go to
either a VC200L or a 130mm-ish refractor. Camera, possibly a DSI III Pro
initially, then something like a QHY-8 or similar.

I'm pretty sure any of the above mounts would carry this load quite well,
so is it worth going with a Losmandy over the EQ6?

Cheers,
Jason.

[Hans Tucker]

The GM8 is out of it's weight class if you are pitting it up against the EQ6 & G11 because the latter two have a similar weight bearing capacity where as the GM8 is half that.

Also I have to strongly disagree with Ron Wodaski's claim that the G11 is a mediocre performer. I owned a G11 and it is an excellent entry level medium sized mount for astrophotography but it is considerably more expensive than the EQ6 pro. I also owned a HEQ5 mount which is the baby brother to the EQ6 and these mounts have come a long way since they first were introduced and as you have already noted many people here on this site have been successful at imaging with the EQ6.

So my recommendation is to go with the best mount which would be best suited to carrying your equipment weight and your budget.

Goodluck with what ever you choose.

[mick pinner]

it's obvious to anyone that has owned a G11 that Wodaski has no idea.
having owned an EQ6 AND G11 seriously there is no comparison IMO, the G11 is a far superior mount in every way. people with EQ6's may disagree but you don't have such a price difference for nothing.

[AlexN]

back in the OLD days, Losmandy mounts had some issues with machining tolerances, however these days, they are superior to anything synta releases in a similar weight class...

A GM-8 will destroy a HEQ5 for accuracy, PE etc, and a G11 will do the same to an EQ6 given similar load percentages...

Also, despite the EQ6 being rated to carry 24kgs, I'd like to see you accurately guide and attempt photography with 24kgs on one.. I've tried. I failed. a G11 will carry 24kgs with no issues what so ever..

No comparison. If you can afford the Losmandy mount in the weight class you're looking at, then get it....

FWIW, Gemini goto can be a pain from my minimal experience with it.. a lot of users opting to go with the non-goto digital drive mount with encoders and an Argo-Navis. cost is a little less overall than buying a go-to mount too..

Alex.

[marki]

Why not go that little bit further and get a AP Mach1 GTO. Similar capacity to the others, max PE of +/- 3.5 arc sec or less and only a couple grand (US) dearer then the G11.

Mark

[AlexN]

I dunno Mark.. How long do you want to wait for your mount? If you want a mount now, the losmandy is a better option, if you're willing to wait 4~7 years, sure, order the AP Mach1 GTO.. Far superior mount to all the rest mentioned in this thread.

[dpastern]

It ain't a 4-7 year wait for an AP. Prolly closer to 18 months from what I'm seeing out of cloudy skies forums.

Dave

[marki]

Alex, if you go the AP site the 900GTO is available for oct/nov 2009 delivery at $8450 US. Not sure about the Mach 1 though.

Mark

[Hans Tucker]

Personally, I would love to downgrade from my Takahashi NJP to an AP Mach 1 but have you ever tried to sell an NJP on the used market in Australia.

Anyway on the subject of the AP Mach 1 you also have to factor in a tripod and counter-weights when purchasing this mount because the $5800+ US price does not include these items where as if a person goes the G11 route they get the lot.

P.S. Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the EQ6 was equal or superior to the G11 but if someone is working on a tight budget the EQ6 may be a good mount to start with.

[renormalised]

Precisely. Not too many people can go and plunk down uber bucks on a G11 when they can get by purchasing an EQ6 without breaking the bank.

[Alchemy]

i use exactly what you have in mind, ( 132mm refractor, 80mm guidescope plus qhy8) i chose the G11 and still would, the adage you get what you pay for rings true generally.

ron wodowski is pretty much commenting on the very top end for mounts, note the book is a few years old now and autoguiding is very sophisticated, i might agree with him if you are shooting at huge F/L then by all means get a paramount or similar, but at around 1000mm i dont think that is a concern.

[AlexN]

I dont know about that.. I'm on the waiting list for one.. have been for at least 9 months now.. I got an email when i got on the list saying that the list was currently 6 years long for the Mach1 GTO... And apparently a 9 year wait for my AP130 EDF.. :(

In any case, I will agree with Hans, You can't beat an EQ6 for value... however this does not mean its better than the G11.. Take for example, Fred (Bassnut) uses his G11 to image with a 3000mm focal length, 12" SCT + guiding gear + imaging gear.. The mount is built like a tank... You do indeed get what you pay for.

[beren]

:) Rod Wodaski's book is a good one......not sure if I interpret the author as describing the G11 as mediocre but here's the passage.....

"The Losmandy G11 has been the entry level mount of choice for imagers on a budget for some years. The GM-8 is not stiff enough to be a good imaging mount, but some folks have a good success by putting the G11 tripod and saddle on the GM-8. if your are going to take that approach, you might as well just go all the way and get the heavier G11 head, too. The price difference between the GM-8 and the G11 is not large.
The G11 has larger periodic error than most of the other mounts mentioned here, but you can usually guide out the error satisfactorily if the focal length of your imaging scope is under 2000mm. There is some variability in the periodic and random errors in tracking from mount to mount, and some sites have sprung up with suggestions on how to improve tracking accuracy.
Unguided exposures with the G11 are often problematic due to tracking errors. I recommend using a guider with the G11.
The G11 is a good choice if your on a tight budget, but expect to put in some time tuning the mount and learning about its behaviour under load. The G11 is often spoken of as being capable of carrying 60 pound loads, for imaging, somewhere around 30-35 is more realistic.
Now available in a goto version called gemini, the G11 is excellent for visual observing, and the servo motors of the gemimi may be better for imaging then the stepper motors used in the non goto version."

Quoted from Page 133 The New CCD Astronomy, Rod Wodaski

The other mounts mentioned are from Astro-Physics, Takahashi, Software Bisque, Mountain Instruments, William Yang ;)

If astrophotography is what you want to do the G11 is the minimum I would look at :thumbsup: but I have seen a heap of good work from people using EQ-6's.

[dpastern]

Maybe the waits are longer for the mach 1...a few more grand gets the AP900 which is a much better mount imho. Hell, for US $8450, that's a steal, especially since our Aussie dollar is not the best. I'd love an AP900, but I can't really justify it since I'm not even using my current mount to its best potential yet.

Dave

[AlexN]

Yea a few more grand. $5800 for the AP Mach1 head (no tripod/weights/saddle plate etc) all up around $6500~6900 USD, or closer to $10500 USD for the AP900 all kitted out.. at 10500 USD you may as well go 13700 for a AP1200 and be done with it! :) lol. You have to draw the line somewhere.. The Mach1 will do just fine I think... Yes the wait is painful... I'd rather wait it out than buy on the used market though..

[Hagar]

The choice of mount is probably the most important choice you will make when talking Astrophotograhy. I have owned an EQ6 pro and was lucky to get one which worked mechanically perfect straight out of the box. Others have not been so lucky and have had to go down various lines to make the mount and it's control much better. It is a big heavy mount and served me very well.

I now own a G11 and find it to be an even better mount than I had expected. It is again a very heavy mount to carry around but would consider it the minimum for imaging with the likes of an 8" SCT or VC200L along with a guide scope and camera. At focal lengths of 1800mm in the case of the VC200L the mount has to be accurate and stable and this mount and tripod fit this requirement well.
There has been some talk about the Gemini control system being a pain but I can assure you these comments come from those that have not used one very much. With a little use the control system is extremely accurate and well thought out.
My recommendation would be go for the G11 with Gemini control. It is way more stable than the EQ6, has a better weight carrying capacity than the GM8 and EQ6, is extremely well made and quite well priced and can be sourced without having to wait a year or two to get one.

[Tandum]

I believe there are after market worm gears available for the G11 which move it's accuracy into the super mount bracket.

http://www.astromart.com/articles/article.asp?article_id=663

[marki]

So forget the Mach 1 and get the 900GTO. You can have it by november and there is not that much of a price difference (~ 6 vs 8.5). Might seem like a lot but will last you a lifetime. I have seen a couple of 130's come up for sale second hand of late but they usually don't last more then 1/2 hour. You would have to be pretty quick to get one.

Mark

[g__day]

I think Ron loves his super mounts. Alot of folk seem to use the EQ6 or G11 with great success here so my thoughts would be you have to know your boundaries. If you think you will get into long duration, long focal length astrophotography - the G11 will have longer legs and better precision to make it a reality.

After 2.5 years of tuning, set up and gaining experience - I can now do hour long shots at 2.3 metre focal length and get round stars (guided tracking seems around +/- 1-2 arc seconds star movement per any 30 seconds - which could be atomspheric, differential flex, mirror shift, polar misalignment, PE etc).

The key point I make is its the long focal length, shifting mirrors, heavy gear (3 OTAs plus focusers, camera, guiders, heavy Losmandy bars etc) that mean the mount has to be absolutely up to it else you are in for alot of pain (and I' argue my Atlux has slightly higher spec's than a G11).

It takes time to master difficult guiding - you absolutely have to nail and try your hardest to eliminate all sources of error (loose or unbalanced gear that shifts only in the microns, CCDs that aren't sensitive enough to guide off, excessive backlash in your DEC). The better quality and capability mount you start with - the fewer sources of error you have to fix.

Serious amateur astrophotographers have managed great results working with the G11 + Gemini combination - there must be a reason why!

Matt

[gregbradley]

I have seen both AP900 and Mach 1 GTO's for sale on Astromart recently and more than once. The US astronomers generally speaking are hurting more than the Aussies so there are deals out there. The Aussie dollar is around the US83 cent mark which is pretty high considering for many years it was below 75 cents.

Have you also considered a Tak EM200? Or perhaps a 2nd hand NJP which will handle up to a 12.5 inch RCOS and a TEC180mm refractor.

Tak is very user firendly and simple to use. Losmandy uses Gemini system which whilst it has a lot of features I found it very time consuming and slow to align and synchronise. My NJP synchs pretty accurately after only 1 star. Others may have other experiences but when I used Gemini it was still so so on Go-Tos after 10 synchs. Perhaps my polar alignment sucked at the time.

Tak is way to go in my opinion.

AP900 and Tak Em400 (or NJP) are similar quality from a review of someone who had both and from what I have seen in images.

G11 is good value but tracking errors and eggy stars are more likely at longer focal length. Tak has lower PE to start with but has no PEC and relies on its low PE.

I am sure you could get a 2nd hand EM200 or very close to it for the price of a G11.

Also with Tak and AP sure the initial cost is higher but you get most of your moeny back when you resell.

Remember the Forengi laws (Deep Space Nine) resale is at the end of the cycle of purchase!!

Greg.

[Terry B]

I use an EQ6 pro with EQMOD. On it is a VC200L and a 127mm APO refractor that doubles as a guidescope with a QHY5 guider.
The EQ6 copes very well with this combination. I'm sure that the G11 would also cope and may be better but it is vastly more expensive. I can achieve guiding well within 2 arcsecs over a 10 min exposure at 1800mm fl. Anything longer is limited by flexing between the scopes. Using the internal guider on my SBIG camera essentially gives me limitless exposure time.
Getting a more expensive mount would be nice but bang for buck the EQ6 copes well with my setup.
Note that the VC200L is much lighter than an 8" SCT so that option might be a different story.

[koputai]

Hmm.
This thread (and the expectations of fellow IIS'ers of my spending capacity) has grown
somewhat out of proportion.
The EQ6 Pro is $2k AUD new. I'd be really stretching my budget buying a G11S for $3850 AUD new.
All those super mounts suggested are going on Astromart for around $10k US used. Then add
shipping and insurance we're looking at $14k AUD for a used mount. AINT GUNNA HAPPEN!!!
Unless miraculaously some astro-dood in Aus gets desperate and wants to drop his super mount
for under $5k AUD, I'll be getting either an EQ6 Pro or a G11, so pro's and cons of those two
beasties would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jason.

[AlexN]

If your intentions are to use a 132mm refractor and possibly a VC200L for imaging, I would go straight for the G11S if you can afford it.. The 132mm APO will be fine on an EQ6, although you're stretching its capabilities for smooth stable tracking when you load up the VC200L and try to image at 1900mm F/L. Yes, it can be done. No, it won't be easy...

As has been said in this thread already... Your mount is THE - SINGLE - MOST - IMPORTANT - PURCHASE in any astro photography setup...

Lets say you buy the best optics on the planet, with the best most sensitive camera availiable, and you plonk it on a cheapo mount that can not track accurately for more than 2 minutes.. No matter how good your optics and camera are, your mount will destroy all of the gears potential with tracking errors.

If on the other hand, you buy the best mount you can afford, and put a cheap 2nd hand 80mm ED doublet on it with a modified Canon 350D. Guaranteed, you'll get nice images, round stars, long exposures, no tracking errors.

Simple as that. You get what you pay for.. A $3800 G11 is better than a $2000 EQ6 Pro.

G11 Pro's:
Better construction.
More accurate gears.
More teeth on the RA gear, equaling better tracking.
Easier polar adjustment knobs.
the bubble level on the mount is accurate and works.
elevation scale is laser ingraved into the polar axis of the mount and is quite accurate.
the tripod would hold the G11 + a school bus. its very sturdy.
Instrument capacity rating is somewhat conservative.

Cons :
Gemini GOTO takes some getting used to.
Its more expensive than an EQ6.
Its heavy to cart around to star parties.
If you kick the tripod leg while you're imaging, your image will be fine, but your toe will be broken.

EQ6 Pros:
Easy to setup.
Value for money.
very user friendly hand controller.

Cons:
quality of tracking is inconsistant from unit to unit.. some are fantastic out of the box, some are not.
Peak to peak PE is not great. PEC can help but only to a point.
vixen style dovetails are not the most sturdy option available.
the 2" tripod seems big when you first see it. but its not.
bubble level in the head is grossly inaccurate.
elevation scale on the head is inaccurate.
polarscope out of the box required collimation (in my unit..)
Instrument weight capacity is somewhat exadurated.

Yes - You can take great images on an EQ6 Pro mount. I'm not saying you cant. Many people do.

No - You cant expect the world from a budget mount.

Yes - its your money, Spend it however you like.

Yes - If you buy the EQ6 now, You will want to buy the G11 eventually. Save yourself the effort, and the money.. and buy the best mount you can first time around.

I hope this has helped.

[Peter Ward]

Sometimes fashion outweighs solid engineering.

If...and that's a big *if* you can get a Losmandy GM100, and *precision* astro-imaging is your goal: buy it!

Best bang for buck Scott Losmandy ever made...sure non-GoTo..but an Argo Navis will sort that out...but, sub pixel guiding with an SBIG and zero backlash in Dec. I mean Zero. Nada. Zilch.

I'm sorry I sold mine.

[koputai]

Fantastic post Alex, thanks heaps, and Terry too.
I'd only be one of the above scopes on at a time, plus a smaller
guide scope, not a reflector plus 130mm refractor at once, so
payload isn't intended to be huge.
The lure of a nice mount like the G11 is very great, but so is the
initial value of the EQ6 Pro.........

Cheers,
Jason.

[White Rabbit]

I'll be upgrading my mount mount from an heq5. I'm thinking the G11s, can you upgrade with the gemine goto system later if you want? It would make the price more digestable. I'm assuming you can hook these mounts up to a pc and do the goto from there, no??? If thats the case what is the point of the gemin?

Thanks
sandy

[JohnG]

Yes you can update to the Gemini system later and yes, the mount will interface with a PC using the Gemini.

The standard G-11 comes with a Digital Drive and Stepper Motors, you can interface with a PC using a system like the Argo Navis and Digital Setting Circles, whilst that system is not GOTO, it is Push To.

Cheers

[Omaroo]

The Gemini is the GOTO system. Without it there is none - using its internal model, it controls the servos and provides the object database. A computer can drive the Gemini like any other GOTO. The standard Digital Drive just allows you to track and guide - that's it - it won't even slew. I prefer it this way because I prefer an ArgoNavis attached to my G-11 to provide me with push-to rather than GOTO.

[gregbradley]

This one would be close to AUD$3800 give or take a little and its an AP mount:


http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=642098

I know he says US only but they often say that. You just reassure them that sending to Aussie is as simple as sending to another US state and they are usually fine especially if noone from the US is wanting it which is likely at the moment.


Greg.

[AlexN]

Jason - Send this guy an email ASAP! That is a bargain, and will do everything you want and more!

[marki]

Alex it's CONUS only. Might be able to twist his arm if you are quick. What kind of load will it carry???

Mark

[AlexN]

CONUS means "sweet talk me and offer me an extra $200 USD and I'll send it anywhere."

I dont have the cash right now, and besides, on the wait list for the Mach1 GTO...

[marki]

Thats what I meant by the arm twisting :P. Do you have any idea of it's load capacity? Can't seem to find much anywhere. I still think with the rate you go through equipment a 900GTO would be a better then the Mach 1 GTO. Plus when you put it up for sale I would be waiting:P :D.

Mark

[Hans Tucker]

Frome the Astro-physics website: Capacity of AP 400:
"Approximately 18 lbs. (8.2 kg) scope and accessories, depending on length. Will accommodate many refractors up to 5" f8;, reflectors to 6", Cassegrains to 8"
Note: Some telescopes are very heavy for their size and will require a larger mount."

I myself was interested in this mount, I need something lighter than the NJP and I thought this would be ideal for my FSQ but it said CONUS only so I also didn't bother.

[AlexN]

I had my name on the AP1200 list untill a few months ago.. unless something really drastic happens a 1200 is off the menu for me, and really, the capacity of the 900GTO is overkill for anything in my future plans... After owning this high quality triplet APO for just one week now, I can FAIRLY safely say I wont be going to a reflector until I can afford a PME + 17" CDK or 14.25" RCOS... The Mach1 GTO will easily hold my ZS70, TMB 80 and AP130EDF with no issues what so ever... Overmounting is key.. even if I load the all 3 of those APO's at once, im looking at 51% of the Mach 1's capacity.. Should be sweet! :)

[koputai]

Yeah I'd seen that one before. I'm sure it's a nicely built mount, but it's
specs aren't that great.

Load Capacity: 8.2 Kg
Worm wheel: 76mm, 192 teeth

Thanks for looking out for me though!

Cheers,
Jason.

[AlexN]

total capacity is a little low.. but despite its teeth and worm wheel size it would be an incredible mount for something along the lines of an AP130EDF + self guided SBIG camera...

[marki]

Yeah the PME would be nice for sure been thinking of getting one for a while but would only do it if I set up a permenment observatory. Must say I like the chronos mounts better with no worms or weights. 8.2kg is a bit too light for my needs and doesn't allow much room for growth even as a portable mount.

Mark

[JohnH]

Or you can add the Ovision high precision worm to the G11 and get the same performance range as AP for USD500....

[gregbradley]

Alex,

There are 2 AP1200 mounts for sale on Astromart right now. One is new in box.

Greg.

[TheDecepticon]

And I believe there are some available for the EQ6 pro as well. And gears and tweaks etc. And guiding tweaks. It is going to depend. Like most people, me included, buy to your budget. Learn how to screw the most out of it. If you buy an EQ6 and you're happy with the images you get, well, the mount is good enough. At the end of the day, the mount is for you, and if "mount X" suits your needs, who cares what the others say.:thumbsup:

[marki]

John, you could add what you liked, a G11 will never be an AP mount. I am not saying the G 11's are bad by any stretch of the imagination but they are not in the same class.

Mark

[gregbradley]

Here you go Alex, AP Mach 1 GTO with no wait and as new.

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=643278

Greg.

[marki]

Just saw that Greg but he wants 8.5K which is about the same as a new 900GTO head which will be available for delivery in a couple months. The new 1200 on astromart is only $1300 more.

Mark

[AlexN]

mark. thats the full mount, with pier, couterweights, saddle plate, extra accessories etc. for $8500 Thats a good price... The price listed on the AP site is for the mount head only. At that price, you can't even fit a scope to the mount, as it does not come with a dovetail saddle plate. it does not come with weights, or a tripod/pier setup.. The price listed for the AP mounts is purely for the mount head with none of the other parts required to get the mount running. So yes, an AP900 might be roughly the same price as that AP Mach1 on Astromart, but the AP900 will still cost you EASILY another $1500~2k USD to fit it out so that you can actually fit a telescope to it and take some photos..

And I think we should really stop wandering off topic :D :D

Alex.