Solid DOB vs Collapse DOB

[Marclau]

Apart from size and the ability to transport the Collapse DOB more easily, is there any large differences?

I'm looking possibly at a 12" heading around Xmas time.

As for vehicles, we have a new Grand Cherookee and the smaller Cherokee so vehicle wise, plenty of room.

Does the Collapse DOB bring in more light, distracting light then a solid tube etc etc..........

thanks in advance.......

[astronut]

Marcel,
Since you have plenty of room to transport your equipment, the other differences are this: 1. Price.
2. Physical size, I've seen plenty of people trying to manhandle a 12" solid tube Newt. It looks painful!!
My 12" LB feels like setting up a scope half its size!
Whether you choose the Meade, Skywatcher or G.S.O Truss or strut scopes, they're a better deal than the solid tubes.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Marclau]

Thanks John,

I'm 6'2 and 100 kilos........so not sure if this makes any difference??

As for the Collapse DOB, is there any light interference between the gaps.....(if that makes sense)......I'm a total newby with regards to these....

[rmcpb]

Off axis light can be fixed with a shroud in the collapsible dobs so its not really an issue.

If this scope is going to live in your new observing platform and a solid tube is cheaper then I would go for the solid tube one BUT if you plan on moving it around the collapsible one, with shroud, is the better option.

Cheers

[erick]

And you seem to have two arms! A 12" solid tube GSO or similar will be no problem for you, except you will move the base and the tube unit separately - together the weight is not impossible, but it's too awkward - you risk damage to scope and back. :scared:

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Marcel,

I am 6'9 and 120kgs and my 12 inch collapsible Skywatcher dob is even a handful for me when fully assembled. It IS possible to move it around with the tube on the base as long as you retract the secondary cage first (VERY easy to do and convenient, by the way).

When I move it from the backyard up 4 stairs (about a metre in height) to the back yard fully assembled, there is the risk of back injury, but I have done it a few times. The main problem is the 64cm diameter base which bangs on your legs or shins.

Its much easier to handle as the tube by itself and the base by itself (using the handle).

With transport, I have a HIGH roof ute canopy and the tube when collapsed JUST fits under the canopy when I put it on the supplied foam OTA circles that came with it (for protection). I havent tried lying it down in the back of my bouncy leaf sprung ute yet (too scared) so for now it is strapped in with bungy cords to the side of the tray using the foam OTA bits from the box.

Also, because of your height, it may be a good idea for you to make a box for it to sit on when observing like I did as your back gets sore bending down to look at something thats not at zenith (straight up) and when it sits on my dob box, i can stand straight up and look around which is GREAT. Sitting down and swinging the scope around is annoying to have to shift the seat constantly.

As for the light getting in the tube, I havent had this problem at all as its VERY well baffled because of the size of the secondary cage and the height of the main tube stops most of the stray light getting in. A quick knock up light shroud in the gap would fix this anyway if I feel the need later on.

I hope this information helps, in a nutshell, the collapsible design of the Skywatcher is VERY well made, VERY convenient (compared to a Meade or other) and saves on set up time and ultimately makes the whole thing a whole lot more portable to move around and transport.

(FYI - and for anyone else reading, I noticed that Andrews has dropped their prices on collapsibles to $399 for the 8 inch, $799 for the 10 inch (BARGAIN) and $1199 for the 12 inch -GRRRRRR I bought mine for $1499. So they are a STEAL at the moment, especially for the 8 inch!)

Cheers

Chris

[Marclau]

Appreciate the quick feedback..........

O'K seems the 12" Collapse DOB is the way to go........would love to be in a position to buy it now but unfortunately not..........just recently purchased the Jeep.......so probably somewhere between 6 -8 months away :(

Some good points about the base and my shins.........nothing worse......and I might just be moving it around as I wont have my observatory built just yet.........still thinking about that as well but I suspect this may be 12 months away.

I'm fortunatate that I have 120 hectare of parkland and bushland right across from where I live so should my backyard not be dark enough, i could simply walk it across the road. The idea now of portability is starting to make more sense now and since my son (age 10) and daughter (age 6) are very much interested, this might be the better choice.

I have finally dug up my old Tasco 4.5" Newt (made in Japan) and will set this up after 20 years in hiding (and 4 house moves).......hope it still o'k....:(

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Marcel,

One more point, if you are getting an observatory and want to make the most of your money, it MAY be better to get a solid tube 10" or 12" dob as you can then install the tube onto a Equatorial mount like an EQ6 pro and have tracking for planetary or Deep Sky Pics later on. I dont think the collapsible ones will ever be able to be mounted like this (until some smartypants designs tube rings to handle a collapsible tube), so if this is the way you feel you might head when the funds come around after the observatory is built, then a solid tube is better value in the long run.

Something to consider.

Cheers

Chris

[Marclau]

One final question..........is a 12" worth more then double the cost of a 10"?? and can you really see further/more dimly lit object etc etc

This will be my main telescope and one I will be using for some significant time until I win Tattslotto........so I need something that will get me the power if you like to observe, stars, planets, moon, comets, deep sky nabula etc.......

After speaking with the misses.......I mean financial controller again today she asked the question would I really like to leave the scope outside or in the observatory??

Smartypants she is, cause the thought of leaving it their permanently did not cross my mind........as we go camping a lot I would kinda like to bring it along. So Chris, the point you made early is really coming home.......I think I would like the flexibility to be able to move it even in 2 parts stages wont be an issue......

What do you think?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Marcel,

OK, then with this in mind, my recommendations are;

If COST is the main issue, buy the 10inch collapsible for $799. You would notice the difference (resolution on planets, or brightness of some DSO objects like galaxies) BUT it wouldnt be enough to justify the extra $400 (I am quoting what Andrews Comms prices are as of right now)
Also, the 10 inch is slightly less bulky which means more room in the back of the car when camping.

I was all set on buying the 10 inch collapsible as the best bang for buck / performance / portability / light gathering scope after 6 months of research. The ONLY real reasons why I went with the 12 inch scope were;

1) I was ALWAYS going to be thinking...."should I have bought the 12 inch version?" and having aperture envy everytime someone with a 12" turned up next to me.
2) This is probably the killer; When I asked my wife of her opinion as to whether I should buy the 10" for $800 or the 12" for $1500, she said, (and I quote) " what is going to shut you up once and for all about this freakin' telescope?"

So I bought the 12" version....:)

For $1199 for a 12", you can't really go wrong, but again, if times are tight, $799 for a 10" is $400 saving for NOT TWICE the performance hit.

I suppose I could also say that by buying the 12", I will get better value for money in the long run as I will be able to see FAR more with better clarity than the 10" for a LONG LONG time..... I could have seen myself upgrading in less than 12 months the longer I think about it.

By the time I run out of stuff to look at with the 12", I probably will have enough money to buy a FLT132 Refractor on an EQ6, so it really wont matter by then.

Sorry if this muddies the water somewhat.

Cheers

Chris

[Marclau]

Damn..........I think along your lines and must admit.........I wont settle for anything less then 12"......knowing that longevity will be much more then a 10" in the long run........

So know it's back to a solid tube or collapse...........I do wonder just how portable the tube is even in 2 parts as opposed to a collapse one......

[Screwdriverone]

I think its fine to carry the tube in a big bear hug up against your body, the advantage the collapsible has here is that when its off the base, you can still carry it by the black hand grips you use to turn the scope around which means you dont have to hug it.

FYI;

The OTA for a 12" solid is around 1400mm long and the OTA for the 12" collapsible is listed at the same length but goes down to 920mm when collapsed.

Cheers

Chris

[erick]

I used to carry an 8" solid tube in my Lancer, easy. I upgraded to 12" and could not fit either the tube or the base in the Lancer. (In fact, I couldn't fit the 12" tube on the back seat between the door handles of an EL Falcon!)

I now pull a covered 6'x4' trailer to take my scope away from home!

[astronut]

I can fit my 12" LB, 2 cases with e/p's, batt etc.
Observing chair, fold up chair, food, drink in another couple of bags + extra clothing, chart table & charts and still have a little room to spare in my 89" Ford Laser.
If the scope was a solid tube, this would not be possible.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[alexch]

Hi Marcel,

I started with 8" solid tube then upgraded to 12" solid tube. I chose solid tube because my car is a people mover and space was never an issue. I just couldn't justify the extra cost for something I don't need.

Moving it around in one piece is a challenge, so only do that when I want to move it short distance. I am not small by any standard (6ft 6 and 120kg) but the base size is tne most awkward part. It's very easy to move in two pieces though.


I see that you are in Mornington Pen. so if you want to see it in action then I can bring it along to MPAS public viewing night in Briars. It is held every first Friday of the month. Here is more info: http://www.mpas.asn.au/PVN.htm. Just let me know (PM) if you are going there and I will take the telescope with me.

Cheers,
Alex

[bobson]

Hi

I have 12" solid tube Dob. You can not put the tube on the back seat of Falcon but if you lower down front seat than put it there and seat belt around it, base at the back seat and ready to go :) It is a bit hard to put it in and take it out, so I got station wagon and problem solved.

There is less collimation issues with solid tube. No need for covering in between like with collapsible.

Less prone to dew problems as well.

Less chance to go out of collimation when observing things low on horizon.

Generally speaking if you have less moving parts there is less chance for problems.

At the same time I can see how it must be easy to clean main mirror if you have to with collapsible :) I had to take mine out to do so.

My personal opinion is still for solid tube, price is on its side as well. In my opinion only 16" and up should be collapsible, but thats my opinion, and you know what they say: "Opinion is like an asshole, everyone got one" :)

cheers

bob

[Marclau]

hahahaha thanks Bob...........true in every way including opinions and ass_ole...........hahaha

Yeah, I'm starting to be persuaded for a solid tube especially since I have the Jeeps but also the thought that if I do end up with a observatory, it might be better........also the extras worries of dew blah blah blah......besides, to help carry it, thats what my slaves, I mean, kids are for right??

[Batfink]

I got the collapsible 8" dob from Andrews, and am very pleased with it, when collapsed it's easy to carry, especially through door ways, sets up in seconds and so far the collimation has been spot on even with numerous folding and unfolding.

I really don't think you need to worry about stray light entering the tube, I set mine up behind a caravan to block a street light, it's a dead end street no cars, and there a few house's arouind with lights on and I have no problems at all.

Peter

[Marclau]

damn it...........than I think I'm finally persuaded and then another post pulls me in the next direction....................arghhh hhh

Me know starting to think going back to a 10" and saving some money....ARGHHHHH my brain is starting to hurt..........and my wife (financial controller) is getting sick of my indecision and mind changing..........

Got a question............would a 12" be a scope for life and could the same be said about a 10"?? I'm talking solid tube now too.........

[Screwdriverone]

OK let me make your mind up for you Marcel.

1) I dont think a 12" or 10" solid will be for "life". From what I have seen and heard here in the last 18 months, one telescope is never enough and the first one either stays with you and gets added to, or "upgraded" by selling it to IIS members and buying the next best thing in your life at the time.
2) For $599 for a 10 inch collapsible (not $799 like I thought), the price of the 10 inch is A STEAL!, saves you $600!!!!!! over a 12 inch scope and as I said, its more portable, takes up slightly less space in the car and isn't too far behind the gathering capacity of the 12" version.
3) You mentioned an observatory perhaps in the future. When that is built you will probably want an EQ mount that stays set up, aligned and ready to go instantly when the need arises. A 10" or 12" dob taking pride of place in an observatory (to me) seems a bit silly.

In summary: Save some money now while the prices are rock bottom on the 10" collapsible at $599. Buy one, take it camping, use it as often as you want, chuck it in the car, let the kids use it (IF THEY CAN GET YOU OFF IT) and keep the $600 difference for the 12-24 months away when you decide to UPGRADE.

Seriously, by the time you get sick of it, or run out of things to look at, you will have been secretly putting aside savings to purchase the "next best thing" on the horizon to slot into the observatory.

One thing I have learnt here is: There is always something else that you want to buy.

After all, we are "only" talking about $600! Nifty Kev hopefully should be funding it?

Cheers for now

Chris

[Screwdriverone]

Oh and one other thing!

When I was trying to "justify" the expense to the Minister of Finances, one thing struck me as I was sitting in the kids rumpus room contemplating blowing $1500 on a telescope..............

Well, not exactly one thing, more like;

Xbox 360 = $500
Nintendo Wii = $400
Playstation 2 = $400 (at the time)

81cm LCD TV to play these on = $1500
and over (wait for it) 100 games @ $80-100 dollars EACH = $8000 -$9000 !!!!!!!!!

And I said: "stuff this, I am buying a 12" telescope TODAY!!!"

and then I went and asked my wife :sadeyes:......

Cheers ;);)

Chris

[Marclau]

Your a legend Chris............seriously......... not a politician are you?? :lol:

Thats what swayed me couple of days ago but then reread your post early on about egos etc etc.
Wife made a good point though; would i really want to bring it camping? Would'nt the 4.5" tube and binos be good enough??

Even though both our cars could easily accommodate the tube, it has had me thinking all bloody day at work............but you are right.......looking at my wish list down the track I would love a GPS based 12" or 14" as ultimate (Meade LX200-ACF 12" Advanced Coma Free).........and then I dream that after my vehicle purchases, it will take me 5 years to save based on my $2 per week pocket money from my accountant...:eyepop:

Bugger, maybe I just take the plunge..........anyone heard good things about Andrews Communications?? They have scopes that are $200 cheaper then Bintel's...........and yes, it would cost around $50 for delivery to Melbourne...........which brings me on to the next question; how good are the Saxon 12" DOB's...........??maybe I should do a poll on the models and see what people vote for..........ummmmmmm

[Marclau]

hahahaha I know the scenario well.........we have a new Sony 120cm LCD Bravia Xmas time and the PS3.......dont know why as we had a 101cm Phillips LCD that was perfect...........on top of that a 100" projector in the Rumpus............geeee i'm such a nerd and gadgets man.........don't even get me started on those...............wife absolutely hates it. My excuse, I dont drink or smoke.............hahahaha I win everytime...

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Marcel,

No, not a politician, so, YES you CAN trust me.

If you are camping, in a nice dark sky, you will want the bigger 10" tube to see more and take advantage of the better night sky. The other advantage of the dobsonian 10" over the 4.5" is that its TWICE the aperture and MUCH easier for everyone to use (including the wife and kids) so you can ALL fight over it when looking at cool stuff.

As for Andrews Comms, my experiences have ALL been positive, that's where I bought my 12" Skywatcher DOB from. Also, Saxon is the same manufacturer with a different name on it.

Go for the 10" from Andrews Comms at $599, its well worth the money and from my own experience and also others here and reviews in Australian Sky and Telescope, the optical quality of these scopes is very good.

I am not affiliated with Andrews Comms or any other vendor/shop by the way.

Cheers

Chris

[written, spoken and authorised by Screwdriverone (Chris) for the IIS Telescope Selection Party (2009)]

[Marclau]

hahahaah funny guy...........yeah I suppose........in fact this months issue if Sky & telescope (I think thats what the mag was called) just reviewed the 12"..........the only thing it said was the the alt was too easily moved even when using the finderscope etc.........too easy to move around......I'm now back to thinking 12"............every day a different point of view.......probably change my mind once I see them so looking at going to Bintel's first to get an idea of size and weight........then I will look at who can give me the best deal...........postage I'm assuming from Sydney would be around $50 - $100??

Does anyone know if the Bintel DOB's are the same as SW & Saxon rebadged?

[bobson]

Marcel,

Buy 12" and you will not look back. If you buy 10" you will always think what if I bought 12". Beleive me, I was in the same position and not once I felt I should've gotten 10". In this hobby, bigger is better. Once you look through 16" you will want that one and so on.

As for Bintel, I got that one, its GSO. Made in Taiwan. Saxon and Skywatcher are made in China.

Just to add to this post, I had Skywather 8" before this one and sold it to buy 12". I recently bought Skyawatcher refractor 102x1000. But the views were not even close to my 12" Dob. Talking about planets and Moon here. I didn't expect refractor to perform as good as 12" Dob but the views with Dob are so much better that I sold that refractor. Yes, it was easy to move around, and it was on EQ mount, but all that is not enough when you look through 12" Dob. Than you will know why you bought it.

Don't forget that 12" collects approx. 40% (or even more)more light than 10". Someone correct me if I am wrong. Its not just 2" difference and people think, well its only 2", so what?

cheers

bob

[alexch]

Mine was like that for first couple of months and I added two pieces of foam to add stiction, it did wear in however, and I had to remove the foam later as it was too sticky. The az movement is close to perfection now (easy 500x hand guiding). I replaced the nylon alt bearings with steel roller bearings too.

[Screwdriverone]

Mine rotates too easy in Azimuth too, all I did was tighten the centre bolt - problem solved.

I have been trying to get Marcel to buy the 12" version for a few posts now, I simply cannot really justify $600 more for the 12" collapsible compared to the current list price of the 10" at $599.

I know that you may say (like I did) "what if?" but come on? TWICE THE PRICE?

Still, $1199 is a good price but all the factors here (longevity, portability etc etc) make me think a 10" is a great solution for Marcel's current situation and for what he wants to do with it and places he wants to take it. The 12" is a BIG scope, even when its collapsed.

Anyhow, decision is not mine so.......

Cheers

Chris

[Marclau]

Thanks Chris again, Alex & Bob.........I think once I can get an understanding and visual of ths actual size compared to me will be the decision point.........weight too i guess...just need to save...........pulled out and set up the old scope 2 days ago.........OMG.........can't wait now for a DOB....

[Marclau]

O'K went and visited Roger at Bintel this afternoon.

Nothing short of sensational. Like a big kid in a candy store.

Service was A1 and even though I mentioned that I was only looking at this stage, Roger was sensational discussing all my options and 'for's and againsts' for 10", 12" collapsibles etc........I actually held the 12" tube easily enough and only 18 kilos plus 16 for base (if I recall correctly) but more then easy enough for me so looks like the 12" tube is now the go and settled upon in my head. And now to keep saving........:)

I feel for my needs, and long term investment, the 12" was the way to go. Aperture Envy convinced me that the 12" would make the better investment too with 40% larger light capturing ability as mentioned earlier.

[Calibos]

Marcel,

You've made the right decision. When I got my Orion XT12i 18 months ago, the only Chinese non premium scope Truss/collapsibles were the 12/16" Lightbridges. However I was swayed to the solid tube Orion 12" by the Intelliscope and as a beginner who knew nothing about collimation, I was worried about the talk of Trusses needing to be collimated more often. While I am glad I got the Orion Intelliscope as it turned out the 'Thrill of the hunt' was more like the 'frustration of the hunt' for me with regard to starhopping, I quickly realised that my main reason for not getting a 12 or 16" Lightbridge which was the fear of collimation was a moot point. While collimation sounds hard I got the hang of it in no time at all.

The only problem with my Orion solid tube was space in the car. While I could fit it in with the back seats folded down, between the OTA and the base, there was not much room for very much else.

Now that my fear of collimation was gone I started to investigate the scope that could have been my first scope instead of the Orion had it not been for my fear of collimation, the LB16. After carefull measurements of my car and after finding out the dimensions of the LB16 from others, I realised that this 16" scope because it could be broken down, would fit in my car a lot better than a solid tube 12". Instead of 1/4 the interior space being available for accesories, I would have 1/2 the space free!

More space and all that extra apeture to boot!! A short while later the bubble was slightly burst when I got to compare my 12" Orion with a Premium 20". I was massively surprised how well my 12" held its own when comparing the views on several objects. I realised that the improvement in views is not linear. ie. Big improvement in views from say 4" to 8" and 8" to 12" but after 12" in apeture the law of diminishing returns kicks in big time. You just don't get the same level of improvement as you step up in apeture above 12" while at the same time from 12" upwards the price and size and weight of scopes increases exponentially. ie. 4" apeture upgrades are worthwhile from the smallest scopes up to 12" but from then on you really need to be jumping 10" for the views of the bigger scope to really blow you away. Sure, there is improvement in some objects with smaller jumps but to be able to see amazing new detail in most objects requires much bigger apeture jumps.

Anyway, I ended up getting an LB16 anyway because like I said, it fit the car much better and because I got a brand new one for the price of a 12". I did not get it for the extra apeture though because if I didn't see much differance between my Orion 12" and the premium 20", I certainly wouldn't see much differance between my 12" and a 16" except on a handfull of objects.

Thus I think cheap chinese 12" are the goldilocks scopes with regard to the price performance ratio.

You have the benefit of more choice with regard to trusses and collapsibles than I did.

If it was me deciding on my first big scope right now, with what I have learned about apeture, different types of scopes like dob/newts/sct's refractors etc, and that I preferred dobs but liked pushto/goto and tracking. I have had to add these tom my LB16 at significant extra cost. Well if I was deciding now, I'd be waiting for the 12-14" Skywatcher Collapsible Flextube Auto. Collapsible to fit in the car, Goldilocks 12/14" apeture, tracking built in adding only 2 hundred or so to the cost instead of the 7 or 8 hundred I have spent for rtacking with an EQ platform for my scopes, and once they work out the bugs, Skywatcher will make available their Syscan handset upgrade for this scope for about 200 which will bring its 40,000 object database and full goto to this scope!! A mere fraction of what any other 12" goto SCT would cost.

[Jorge]

Hi all. What I'm learning from this thread is that there is not a significant difference (from an observational perspective) between a 16" dob and 12" dob. I need a little clarification as a begginner. If I were to compare a 16" and a 12" side by side (let's assume both are auto-tracking and using the same eyepiece), what significant differences am I likely to see? Thanks.

[Marclau]

Hi Jorge,

It all comes down to light gathering (aperture) and thus what you are trying to achieve out of your telescope and the quality and detail of your images.

From my learnings, and feedback from what everyone has been saying, aperture is one of the most important ingredients.

I was almost hooked on a 10" but have only just realised that longevity of the scope, a 12" will give me more pleasure for longer.

Also think about portability and where you want to view. Do you have the room, vehicle etc etc??