How can the price difference be justified?

[toryglen-boy]

i was looking at some largers scopes, from a couple of well known online retailers. In particular i noticed two places had the same scope and mount, one site had it at $2500 and another had it at $3500 ... for the exact same scope!!

In reality, how can this be justified? i mean, i dont mind paying a little extra for speedy, good customer service ... but does this show the markup some shops/people make?

i dont want to name the scopes/sites etc. as i am not affiliated with anyone.

:shrug:

[TrevorW]

I saw one local retailer advertising a 152mm APO from Hi-Optics in China for $7800

Go figure

[stephenb]

From my recent extensive research in a medium-size SCT, my advice is:


research carefully what warranty is offered with the product, where you would have to send the item back to if there is a problem;
research what customer service the shop offers; Do they know anything about the product.While I am not defending the "higher priced" shops, there is usually a reason why they are a few hundreds dollars more than the cheaper stores, or put it another way, there is usually a reason why the cheaper shops are a few hundreds dollars cheaper.

I don't want to go down this old argument of local retailers, but I believe that after the exchange rate and other charges, our local shopfronts are offering reasonable prices.

[toryglen-boy]

can you elborate without mentioning names? i am sure there is no harm in posting your findings, without making it personal

;)

[bojan]

I think the stores should be named, and notifed (like what Bunnings is doing.. additional 10% off if someone is cheaper then them).
How else to ensure the competition (and reasonable prices) if they do not know for one another?

Also, it would be interesting to know the REAL prices for those things (the one you would pay in China, at factory door).
I bet you guys would be even more puzzled.

[stephenb]

It is not a simple matter of "naming and shaming". This old chestnut gets raised with monotonous regularity, both here at IIS and on other forums.

Some "on line" retailers, as Duncan refers to them as, may offer different levels of support and customer service. Some stores may have less overheads. I also believe that some stores "may" import direct from the US (although I cannot confirm that), thus your item may not be completely covered by warranty. There will always be a reason and I do not think it is a simple matter of the more expensive shop "ripping off the customer".

If you want to know the "real" or cost price of items imported into the country, ring up and ask the retailer for the cost price, the profit margin, but I bet they do not tell you, and why should they?

No one would ask these questions when buying a car, a clothes, a flat-screen TV, so why is a telescope shop any different? If you do not like the price, shop elsewhere.

[toryglen-boy]

i would agree, and dont have a problem with openly naming stores and price comparissons etc. But maybe its up to the site owners to give the ok on this.


:thumbsup:

[toryglen-boy]

some valid points, and like i said, i dont mind paying for customer service and good advice etc, i dont mind factoring that into the price at all ...

but for $1000 difference i would want it hand delivered on a 24K Gold forklift, with a choir of Angels.


:P

[stephenb]

Like I said, you raise a valid question, but a question which gets asked all the time. My point is perhaps we should look at what we are "not getting" with the cheaper price, rather than the other way around.

By the way, I have absolutely no affiliation with any retailer.

Can I asked what the item is?

[toryglen-boy]

soz if it gets asked alot, but money is a subject close to peoples heart !!

10 inch reflector on EQ6 mount

not that i can buy ... employee oportunities hang in the balance

:sadeyes:

[RB]

Just a reminder about what Mike has set out in the TOS regarding vendor discussion.
We've had situations on here before that have ended in threads being closed or deleted due TOS Rules.

TOS (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7856)

[toryglen-boy]

thats exactly my point, and i have no desire to break any rules

:)

[xstream]

So in fairness to all vendors, this thread should die here!

[toryglen-boy]

why?

we are talking about the price of equipment, and what you get for your money, no names have been mentioned

:shrug:

[wasyoungonce]

Well not really.

A certain telescope sales company in Greystanes, NSW recently had price rises on products I was just about to buy, beaten by a day or 2.

I called to order & I bemoaned this fact, so, he reduced his prices to what they were previous for me.

An extremely first rate gesture by that dealer. He didn't have to.:thumbsup:

Bottom line though.....all Aust prices on Telescope stuff is heading north on prices because of our dollar:shrug:

[bojan]

That only proves that the point is perfectly valid.
After all, we, customers, have also some rights here, one of them is a right not to feel like a fool after finding out that we paid for something 100% more than we would somewhere else, or even next door. And I do not accept the formula that "I should have done my homework better".
Also, all other things (service, support etc) are very theoretical in nature.
I personally prefer to be served by the most rude person in the world provided I am getting exactly what I wanted to buy, at right price, then to be ripped off by some golden-tongue sweet-talking retailer.

Political correctness is NOT a good attitude, it wil backfire sooner or later..

[Gama]

Make sure that the web page is current.
It may just be an outdated page.
You really need to call the vendor and verify the cost and the model. It may look the same, but may not be. An example is the Skymaster series. There are normal, and black edition versions from memory.
It may come with motor drives, while the other doesnt. Check and see if indeed they are the same model and current price.

But as a vendor for my products, i can tell you now, there isnt much additional profit. But then i dont have the overheads or staff to pay. This is why i only concentrate on one niche of the woods, and stick to it.
Its bad and tuff enough for the larger retailers having wages and much larger overheads to add to their headaches, but also compete.
Backup support is "THE MOST" important aspect of the price you pay.
If anything, i sometimes loose money when providing this support. Sending this back, repairing the items at your cost and time.
Plus many hours is lost helping out the customer and these hours are not within the confines of business hours either. I have been called even at 2:15a.m, yes a.m.. Which is fine, as i am contactable till 3:00a.m most nights.
I believe in the old school, that is, how would i like my support for something i just bought.. So i now what its like to be frustrated with software, drivers, things not doing something right, or your just inexperienced at doing something. So i spend the extra time to make sure this is either non existent, or resolved ASAP. As the products should be enjoyed, and not waste time worrying about it.
You will get bananas support from direct overseas purchases near all of the time, so just remember this next time you find a fault or need help to load something.

Just a last note.
I do buy from local suppliers, it costs me more, but i do two things that make me feel a little better.
1) I keep the guys employed and the shop opened that little bit longer.
2) i know if i need help, i can just call them.


But just to shoot myself in the foot, $1000 is a big difference. Its got to be something else..

Theo

[Bassnut]

Reading this thread was an irritating waste of time. If you wont or cant detail the complaint, whats the point?, why bother?, so vauge, could be a 1000 reasons.

[PeterM]

Fred I admire you, your words are like the volume control of a 100 watt Marshall amp being turned to 11, I hope others can hear it.
PeterM.

[marki]

I think the real solution to this is for retailers to detail the level of support they offer with each product. That way consumers such as myself can make a well reasoned choice. Careful consideration of after sales service is an absolutely essential part of the decision making process in my book and yes this thread was annoying to read.

Ciao Mark

[TrevorW]

"Caveat Emptor"

they chose to increase prices or not we who chose to buy or not buy determine whether they survive or fold in a depressed market

[matt]

Spot-on, Trevor.

It all comes back to the same old thing...shop around!!!

[marki]

You still need to know exactly what you are getting. The cheapest price is not always the best deal.

Ciao Mark

[matt]

Well...one would assume you've done enough research to answer that question....or you get what you deserve!!!:P;):lol:

[marki]

I agree however, I would still like to see warranty and aftersales terms etc displayed next to the item you are considering especially on online shops. You often do not get this info until you open the box. If the cheaper prices have come from direct import and there is no Australian warranty I think it needs to disclosed at the just looking stage, not as a bad suprise when something goes wrong. The large descrepencies in pricing just don't add up in my view. For the folk in the east transport costs are much cheaper as all the astro shops are there. For us western dwellers freight costs are a major consideration e.g. if my LX 200 stuffed up I would pay $500 (to and from Sydney) in freight alone before anyone even bothered to look at the scope. If the faulty part was not covered by warranty that would be an extra cost as well as labour. In short the transparency of terms of sale is very important and should not be hidden.



Ciao Mark

[dpastern]

You are absolutely correct, but in this day and age, people who run online forums are more concerned with protecting themselves than *true* freedom of speech.

I do find it offensive that the TOS basically protects the rights of vendors before the rights of us, the consumer. Given Mike's attitude to protecting vendors, and complaints not being posted against them, I guess iceinspace is not the forum for me. I'd rather have openness and freedom of speech anyday to be honest.

Another forum bites the dust (for this lad).

Dave

[Bassnut]

Read the OPs 1st vauge post again Dave, and the rest is noise, random venting, as is your post.

I presume you mean Mike Salway?. He moderates precisely as I and many would expect and agree with.

[h45e]

We should try to organise "group buys" to try to make things cheaper?

[AstroJunk]

I buy from Andrews Communications. Their prices are rarely beaten and their service is absoultely top rate in my experience. If they don't stock what you are after, go somewhere else!

Duncan - I don't know why some other retailers charge so much more for the same stuff. Because they can I suppose, it's a free market. There are clearly people who believe that the threat of sending a parcel interstate/overseas warrants paying more money to guard against. The only thing I have ever had to send back in 20 years was a Nagler Eyepiece, and the man himself in the US covered all the costs (very good sevice Al).

I have no affiliation to any retailer whatsoever, and this post is 100% TOS compliant!!!

[Tandum]

Be realistic. Why would these guys (IIS) pay for a court battle to defend your freedom of speech when a vendor sues them. And the vendor will sue the forum guys as they are the publishers of your comments. I would, who else do you sue. It's happened time and time again. It's easier to delete or ban the comments. Sorry, it's a fact of life.

Get a fruit box and head down the local park and shout your lungs out. See how long that lasts.

As per pricing, how can one vendor selling, say vixen gear, which he must buy from Tasco, an importer, match another vendor, an agent, who can buy direct from Vixen. Do your homework first. Or find a grey importer if you don't care about warranty.

[ColHut]

Hmm YMMV - At one level if you live well away from your place of purchase - support, may be everything or nothing. If you end up paying for return and back again freight sometimes you may as well just buy new gear.
If you cannot take the problem item in for a quick chat and look - again that free after sales service may not be worth much. I think I am more likely to buy from a shop front with good and proximate after sales service if I live close by than if far away and but it will depend on the cost and risk to me.

Back to the original point. I was more staggered by the huge variation in apparently identical 12 inch dobs about 4 months ago - seemed to be $700-1300 which was a huge variation.

[iceman]

You've gotta be kidding me, right? I didn't start a forum for *true* freedom of speech, as you call it. I didn't start a forum so random people I don't know can come on here, bad mouth retailers so THEY feel good about getting it off their back, and then put me in the crap because of it.

We've already covered this argument twice in the last week, I take it you've read those threads and the reasons for the rules?

The TOS doesn't protect the rights of vendors. It doesn't protect the rights of the consumers. It protects me. Simple as that.

I agree with one thing you've said in your post - if you don't like it, find another forum. I don't have the patience to be reasonable any more.

I encourage you to see how many forums out there give you the value that IceInSpace does, *and* lets you have your so-called freedom of speech.
Or start your own forum, have your own set of "freedom of speech" rules, and see how long it lasts and how popular it is (it's been done, I already know the answer to that).

[spearo]

Goodbye Dave, best of luck to you.
Don't let the proverbial door hit you on the way out
frank

[madwayne]

Frank - you took the words right out off my keyboard - I was about to type in the same thing.

Farewell Dave!

Hang in there Mike there are 5,000 odd of us out here who respect and admire this fantastic website. Let the occaissional oddball go and the rest of us will stay and be happy.

Wayne

[gregbradley]

I support Mike. I saw Dave post on the SBIG yahoo group a rant about Vista and those who don't like it.

Greg.

[netwolf]

If we think our own freedom can infringe on anothers and be happy with that then that is not freedom. The rules are there to protect the owners of the forum from litigation, pure and simple becasue that is the world we live in. If you can find any forum where you can say anything you like and not get sued, then good luck to you.

I agree that we often can get ripped off, but is that any diffrent in non astronomy purchases. And if we do get ripped of then perhaps it is our own negelect in not doing the research. Where is the personal responsibility before you start asking for fredom that infringes on others good community spirit in setting up a forum like this.

I have myself commented and created threads on similar subjects in the past, but i tried my best to keep the information factual and to some degree anonymous.

The better way is to post postive things, like bargains that you have found. That way others can shop with there wallet if they wish to.

The choice is ours to buy where we want. Where then is the infringement on us? We have the freedom to buy from anywhere we want. Do your homework. If you know you got ripped off after than you could have known that before. This is true not only for Astronomy related purchases but for everything. The fact is Why should the owner of this forum be open to litagation for our lack of research. Will you be happy with that and then will you be happy if the forum closes. Where will your freedom of speach be then? If you belive in it so strongly go change the law of the nation to protect forums from litgation then we can speak about political corectness.

I like IIS and to me its purpose is for individuals with a common pursuit to help each other and to provide a culture of postive and balanced guidance. And there are rules to protect those who run and own this forum, we who participate are mearly guests and should behave as good guests.

[JethroB76]

What he said..

Go and stick your head in the sand and ignore the realities of the increasingly litigious world we live in

[toryglen-boy]

thats a good word, do you mind if i use it?


;)

[JethroB76]

Talk to my lawyers..

[stephenb]

Back on track... Do your research and ask the vendors questions. People would not walk into the first car dealership and see the first car on the showroom floor and say "I'll buy that one!" People do their homework, and it should be the same in this hobby.

There will most likely be a reason for such a price difference, but you need to ask these vendors. If you are prepared to buy without much after sales support or whatever the reason is, then go for it! Horses for courses.

Just to touch on an earlier post where I have not had time to reply,



Walking into a Bunnings store with a catalogue from, say Mitre 10 or Home Hardware, with proof of a cheaper price, in order to receive a 10% discount on the same product, is not "naming". It is a simple company policy based on getting the competitive edge of the opposition. I can do exactly the same with telescope shops. I can walk into one with an advertisement from AS&T and see if they can match the cheaper price. Some store may, some may not. They is their commercial decision. Then it is up to the me, the consumer, to decide.

For example, I walked into BinTel recently knowing damn well they were more expensive on a particular product I was interested in, and also knowing they could not match the price from a competitor (and they couldn't!) but after a lengthy discussion about the product in question, I will be happy to pay that extra amount for the knowledge they have about the product, the support and warranty they were prepared to supply. I know that some people may not have that luxury of spending more and are prepared to take the less expensive option.

I think we have done this to death, and many will still not agree but I think it is fair to say that there are a number of factors which determine the final retail price:

The initial cost of the item, taking into consideration what bulk quantity discounts the vendor receives from the supplier.
Shop-front overheads (rent, employee wages, advertising)
Warranty and after-sales support
Customs and import duties (if the vendor is shipping directly from overseas)Please don't shoot me down here. I am just trying to apply some form of levelness to this thread.

[Kal]

You cannot be held liable for slander of you stick to facts. If there is a published price difference of $1000, and this can be proved by providing direct links to both published prices, then I don't see what the problem is?

If you start making generalised comments which are not substantiated by a fact, then you risk libel and having the thread deleted. Read the IIS policy carefully and you will see that this position is supported.

[DJDD]

hwo about a thread about:

How do some of those big clothing/TV/hardware/toy retailers (take your pick) justify the mark-ups on their clothes/TVs/spanners/Shrek dolls?


or perhaps we should all run around naked (except in winter) as a protest against the mark-ups of clothing retailers? :lol:

[Geoff45]

I'll wander a bit off thread here. I've never tried this policy with Bunnings, but did try it with some other place that sells office stuff and has a similar policy. First of all the check out person looked stunned when I tried it--first time it had ever happened to her. She went and asked someone, who came armed with a whole lot of hoops for me to jump through. Since we were talking about a $20 item I decided to forget it. The point is that this policy really costs the store nothing. It creates a nice impression that they have the cheapest prices, but it is up to you to do the legwork. Even if you personally do get your 10% reduction I'll start believing in the tooth fairy if you go back the next day and find the price of the item has been reduced.
Geoff

[Geoff45]

Actually, I did get a much lower price on my ZS110 than Andrews was offering at the time, but the reasons were clear. Andrews has a shop, staff and stock. The item was available that day. The place I bought it from was a one-man-move-the-boxes-in-and-out show and I had to wait 2-3 weeks for delivery. A web-only dealer should always be a lot cheaper than someone running a shop.

[wavelandscott]

Why do I read threads like this one...they almost always end in tears or someone leaving the sandbox.

Maybe it is the same compulsion that makes people gawk at roadside accidents that makes me read on.

But to the point of the thread...There is no need to rant ever again on this topic...

Yes, yes, there are differences in distributor prices (sometimes issues of exclusivity) and taxes and transport costs to get them to Australia not to mention the exchange rate of our beloved (And I do love Australia) "banana republic"...However, the true answer to the original post "How can the price be justified" is that someone somewhere is willing to pay that price...and since that is the case, it is the right price...that my friends and dear associates is how the free market works...you don't like the price, don't buy it.

And since I am on my soapbox (and the air is rather thin tonight way up here)...This website which we all so dearly enjoy is not a democracy nor should it be...it is part of Mike's (and maybe Mojo's) house...they built it and allow us to play here...in this instance the "golden rule" shall apply..."He who hath the gold (or in this case the owns the site) makes the rules"...

Now it is clearly time for me to take my "generic prozac" and lie down for a while. Good night all from the frozen North Eastern USA.

Clear Skies All!

[dpastern]

It's nice to see a friendly forum, and to see the mods allow others to make derogative posts about others. You obviously like that "freedom of speech" don't you, but you don't like users posting negative comments about vendors. It's this level of hypocrisy that sickens me.

Australia has no freedom of speech clauses in its constitution, and despite being a member nation of the United Nations, and supposedly abiding by the United Nation Charter of Human Rights, our politicians still refuse to introduce any such legislation. It's the only good thing that the USA has going for it, although it's heavily abused over there as well.

It's good to see the large numbers of suck ups here, no doubt eager to crawl up the backside of the forum owner. See, I too can make snide remarks. Of course, favouritism will mean that my remarks get removed, whilst other remarks stay online.

Anyways, I'll bid you all farewell. Have fun in your little house of straws.

Dave

[Octane]

Dave,

Mike personally replied to your comments/criticism.

Is it wrong of him to try and save his backside? Would you rather see someone who has done such an amazing job by providing a forum and intellectual resource for the Australian amateur astronomy community get served by the law, or, to put measures in place which allows this community to function and continue to be a wonderful resource for us all?

I am sorry that you've taken other people's comments to heart, but, I think there was a bit of heat under the collar due to your posturing comments about freedom of speech and how the terms of service are set up solely to protect Mike.

If you don't mind doing so, can you explain why people would be "eager to crawl up the backside of the forum owner"? What have they got to get out of it? This is a pretty big claim. Or, doesn't freedom of speech work that way?

Regards,
Humayun

[marki]

This is getting as bad as one of those old westerns, you know the ones I mean, the cowboy gets shot and takes three hours to die. Can one of the moderators lock this thread before it becomes any worse please.

Ciao Mark

[wavelandscott]

I'm with Mark, especially since I have contirubted my 2 cents worth :D...

[Jen]

:eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::sc rewy::screwy:
i am not crawling up anyones butt around here :mad2::scared:

:poke::poke::poke::poke:

c'mon guys there is PM or the ignore button ---------->
get out there and get the dust off the scopes
:rolleyes: