Need to know about UFO’s!!

[Elmer]

Hi all, I have been just doing some research online for anything interesting related to the UFO’s , like any reports, findings, sightings and anything related to them. This is nothing like my job, but just an interest in the unknown world that has created an eager inside me to know about them. Do you people have anything that would interest my search on them?

[mick pinner]

if you mean spaceships with aliens imo they just don't exist. with all the cameras and videos in the world, not one piece of proof.

[jungle11]

You will never know for sure if they're real (I think) unless you see one in the flesh (which I haven't).
Might I add, there are tens of thousands of pictures, and thousands of videos of UFOs from around the world. There are radar sightings confirmed by civilian and military pilots, a few of the Appollo astronauts + a steady stream of astronauts up until the present. Mass sightings like the Belgium UFO, pheonix and countless others.

Look, some of this stuff may not be true -but all of it?

I think there's proberly plenty of 'proof' - but how can you know what is real and what isn't?

Maybe aliens seem like a long shot, but we just don't have the experience to judge how likely/unlikely a possibility it is that they are visiting us. Makes sense that an intelligent race would want to study another, especially when they (us) are just beginning to rise into a technological age.

Some people rule them out because of the lightspeed barrier, space being so vast, but once again -how do we know they are limited by physical laws? UFO's have been observed (on radar as well!) manouvering such that they must be circumventing the law of inertia, as if they have no mass!?!(right angle turns at thousands of km/h, accelerations that would rip a manmade aircraft apart - let alone the pilot) Not defying the law i doubt, but finding a way around it. So maybe they find ways around lightspeed as well.
Sounds like fantasy, because for us it is fantasy, but in another thousand years....? Like Jules Verne writing about a rocket to the moon not that long ago;)

Mate, I am a believer - no I can't prove it, no rectal probe r nothin/:lol:

Check out Bill Chalker on the net, should see a link to 'The Oz Files' which is the RAAF (Aussie) files on ufos from the 50s through to the 80's. Some pretty amazing stuff there. Just be mindfull that a lot of websites on the topic attract 'cranks' who 'want to believe' at all costs.

Happy hunting

[Bassnut]

Your kidding right?. If they can travel faster than C (nothing else makes sense), then they are advanced enough to make themselves obvious (in a way we would comprehend) or totally invisible, by choice. If they wanted to make contact, why would they bother being obtuse ?.

[Ian Robinson]

No - they don't exist .

So I already know everything there is to know about UFOs.

Figments of imaginations.
Misidentified objects.
Hoaxes.
Attention seekers.
Did I miss anything .... ?

[Bassnut]

Nice one Ian, smart man :P :D :thumbsup:

[jungle11]

Yep, a fair and logical question:)

Perhaps they aren't interested in making contact? What could we possibly offer them. Just study I think.

Why would they bother making themselves invisible? We certainly aren't a threat to them.

Anyhow, I fully understand why many don't believe, and I respect that.

[Lee]

They are probably already among us..... trust no one! :lol:

[Karls48]

UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. And that’s exactly what it is. It could be some meteorological phenomena, electrostatic or any number of natural phenomena. Alien spaceships? Extremely unlikely. I have seen it few times in Europe and here in Australia. Fired couple shots at it when I was prospecting in Northern Queensland – no response whatsoever.

[Bassnut]

Sucker, they probably appreciated the shot as essential fuel to aid them to obliterate the earth :P.

[PeterM]

Yep I can help, welcome to Ice In Space,
Get involved in this incredible hobby, join a local club hire one of their telescopes and within a very short time you will find that with so many wonderful objects to look you will find this far more interesting than the hocus pocus of UFO's. Sincerely if more people know about astronomy and the sky then we would see less an less UFO reports, Oh, and one more thing just about everyone has a camera and video on their mobile phones so you would think there would have been an explosion of UFO reports when in fact it is exactly the opposite and that pretty much tells it like it is. Start your own voyage of discovery as I did 40 years ago and you won't look back and I guarantee you will not see one object you will end up calling a UFO.:welcome:
PeterM

[Starman73]

Hi There,

Personally I believe there is probably alien life out there, they are just smarter than us, and I think that means they are not interested in us. Alternatively there is alien life out there, they are just far too less developed than us and haven't left their home planet yet, and still not interested in us.

Think about it, our TV signals that we unintentionally beam out to space so that anyone with the ability can pick it up are probably right now looking at vision on Adolf Hitler! Does that say come and visit our little cozy planet, we have fun here?

I have recently read a book by Seth Shostak called Sharing the Universe. This fellow for anyone who doesn't know is on of the SETI gurus. It is an excellent read, he sets out the case about alien life, what it means for us, the likelihood of it being out there and the chances that we have been visited, will be visited or are still being visited. He even looks at things like the likelihood of the appearance of the aliens, will the have 6 legs, 10 eyes and have green copper based blood, and if they can lay their eggs in our abdomens so that their young and rip their way out!!!!!

If you have any interest at all, I suggest that is book is a good read, even if you don't believe aliens are out there.

As far as UFO's visiting Earth, I have been to Wycliff Well (Can't remember the spelling and couldn't be bothered getting up to get out the map), the UFO capital of Australia, there is nothing but a roadhouse, caravan park and pub there. Sure it may be close to a couple of sensative military operations, but why would aliens who can travel millions of km, who would have much higher tecnology then us, be interested in our weapons and military hardware? I have also travelled the Nullarbor Plain, no aliens there either.

Take care all, and look at all cuts and scratches on your skin with care!!

Paul

[jjjnettie]

I reckon there is life, intelligent life on other planets.
But have they ever visited the Earth? Much as I'd like to think that they have/will, (I'm a great sci fi fan) deep down I know that they haven't.

[PeterM]

True, there may well be other life in the universe, would be a waste of space to quote others if there wasn't -though impossible unlikely it would resemble us I thinks, you know evolution and all that. I don't think you can put Seth Shostak and UFOs together in the same sentence, paragraph or book, that just doesn't work. Many years ago through the Australian skeptics (and I am not a member) I met Robert Schaeffer and I was totally engrossed by his incredibly thorough research - if you really want to read the facts that have been thoroughly researched on all the classic UFO cases then google him and have a read, this guy is amazing. I am sorry but I and a few others have been the cause of many UFO reports over Brisbane in the 80s and 90s - white helium ballons with zylume sticks inside, etc etc all reported on the radio as UFOs over Brisbane over those years. I was also at the Mt Barney astrocamp years ago where some 30 amateurs witnessed 4 bits of space debris that entered the Earth's atmosphere only to be reported as nothing less than UFO's, what else could they be? Myself and another amateur on hearing this drove to the nearest police station and reported the space debris on the radio and the next thing we read in the papers is that 40 amateur astronomers also saw the UFOs, to those who must believe you can never win. Again I say get those people involved in knowing the sky and they will soon realise what a load of codswhallop this is and maybe enjoy the sky for what it is. I have stacks more of supposed UFO's that were easily explained but bamboozled many or wrre just plain joshing, but I have bored you enough.
PeterM

[Clarry]

It must be close to 100 years now since people apparently started seeing, photographing and reporting UFO sightings. Yet in all this time we still have no firm proof of their existence. I personally find it very hard to believe in them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we are the only inhabited planet in all of space. When you think that you could take all of our universe and scale it down to the size of a pin head, and yet still it would be surrounded by infinite space filled with infinite galaxies, then it makes it difficult to suppose that we are the only ones here.
No, it's not the existence of other beings that I doubt, it's just whether or not they have visited us that I question. I try thinking of it the other way around. If we had the capability of traveling vast distances to other worlds, then when we got there we discovered they were less advanced than us, would we spend 100 years just zipping to and fro in their air space every now and then. I think not. I think we would land in their equivalent of Central Park and announce ourselves. Yet some people obviously believe that aliens have been stealthily creeping around our skies for that long. Perhaps they're vastly intelligent but extremely shy & timid.
There's also the distance factor to consider. Our nearest stellar system is Alpha Centauri. It's 4.35 light years away. So if you lived in that system and could travel at the speed of light, it would take you 4.35 years just to get here. And for what? To shadow a Cessna across the Pacific then head home again. "See you guys, just popping over to Earth. Be back in 9 years, provided my lightdrive doesn't play up."
On top of that, we're pretty sure there's no advance life in that system anyway, so the surreptitious aliens would have to have come from much further away than 4.35 ly. Way too far for a joy ride. Face it, we have not been visited & there is a very good chance we never will be.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, much as I'm a skeptic as anyone else, aren't we forgetting the fact that we don't understand much about wormholes (if they exist), and it's in these uncharted waters of physics that may lie the answer to interstellar travel?

:shrug:

I don't know anything more than the average layman about this stuff, so I'm happy to be shot down (har har) by a physicist who knows better. I do recall Dr Karl Kruzeniski postulating that the knowledge that comes out of the LHC experiments over the next couple of decades may solve some of these mysteries. He was even suggesting that it may tell us how to lose our mass (thanks to the Higgs Boson), which may facilitate faster than C travel.

Whilst I too am a skeptic, I also know that we don't know everything yet ;)

And for all we know, we're just some big ecological experiment :P:eyepop:

[rat156]

There is no life in the universe.

It can be proved mathematically.

To paraphrase Douglas Adams...

Space is infinite. There are an infinite number of stars, many of which have planets, so there are an infinite number of planets. We know of a few which don't have life, therefore there is a finite number of planets with life. If you divide any finite number by infinity the result is zero. So the probability that there is life on any planet is zero.

Seen plenty of UFO's, no aliens though. I'm sure someone can identify them, but to me they're UFO's.

Cheers
Stuart

[Clarry]

That's just it, we don't even know if they exist at all so why bother speculating that they could be used for traveling great distances. To me it's like religion, People think that because we can't prove something does not exist, then that automatically means it does exist. I say no, show me an alien or show me an omnipotent being & I'll believe.

[jungle11]

Without speculation how would science progress? Would it have even begun in the first place? Wormholes may not exist, but if nobody theorises or speculates about the possibility, then we will never know either way. If the first astronomers didn't speculate we wouldn't have astronomy today...

(perish the thought!:P)

[jungle11]

So how does earth fit into that theory Stuart? In an infinite universe, even if life wasn't present on every planet, there would still be infinite number of planets with life. Any fraction of infinity is still infinite.

[edwardsdj]

Maybe we are a remote destination in a desolate area visited occasionally by some space tourists seeking a thrill. A bit like Antarctica is on Earth but even more out of the way.

But then again maybe not :)

[Clarry]

I've got no problem with speculation, sure there's always the possibility that these things exist. I just don't understand when people say "I believe" with absolutely no hard evidence at all. Why not say "I believe there's a chance of them existing". Now that makes sense.

[jungle11]

Yeah that's fair enough and i guess that's about where I stand on UFOs. As I mentioned earlier - you'll never know for sure if their real unless you see one yourself. Even then, it would have to be a pretty definitive sighting ( like close enough to see your reflection on the hull:P)

I fully agree with Ian Robinson's list below, and I can see a vast majority of reports fitting into one or more of those catagories.

But with the sheer number of reports (they go back several hundred years - recorded anyway) I find it hard to go past the possibility that perhaps a few of them may have been the real deal.

cheers

[xelasnave]

Well of course "they" are out there...they are getting ready to invade..thats why they try remain a myth... so we need to build battle stars and post them at the boundaries to our solar system...and of course later when we have removed all threats locally can post more battle stars at the edge of our galaxy...

Now I am sure we can get some believers on board for the new battel star industry...

I can understand how folk can "see" things...only yesterday I caught a reflection from a jet which came to me thru slight cloud.. well it looked 100 times larger than it was and caused a flatish sphere image...the jet passed the cloud and disappeared as it was now only a mere dot in the distance.. one could interpret that one had seen a ufo that disappeared...

Still we really need to get onto the battle stars move all the military to the edge of the solar system with the world united to fight a common foe... gee everyone has seen the movies funding should be a snap.

alex

[Jeffrey]

This has always been a topic of discussion for many people. Many people go on the verge of searching the truth, but have not been able to verify the real truth about UFO’s. There have been projects launched by authorities but did not seem to gather any significant evidence on them or may be that the evidence is just hard to digest. One can say that whatever done is less known in public. To help you in your search further more, there are http://www.ufo-sightings-evidence.com (http://www.ufo-sightings-evidence.com/) that you can check out.

[Ian Robinson]

Just a few wee additional comments :

1) I have no doubt there are other technological species out there, the universe and our galaxy is probably swarming with them.
2) I have never seen any convincing evidence that they are currently visiting us - much as I would like to have them do so providing they don't see us as potential slaves, or a good source of food, or as an inconvenient infestation that needs to exterminated to allow them to use the earth's resources.
3) have they visited earth in the past ? - well the past is very long time - earth has been a visitable destination for over 4,000.000,000 years , so I'll concede they might have dropped by some time , perhaps even frequently , in the geological past (millions , or billions of years ago , even if they are limited to travelling at subluminary velocities, plenty of time to do that since the earth formed) - no evidence of such visits exists that I have heard off.

[Ian Robinson]

No thanks - got better things to do .

[xelasnave]

Its worse than I thought :eyepop:...they could have been planning for all that time... and I reckon if you leave aliens to their own devices for 4 billion years they will get up to no good...

And they are clever enough not to be discovered so they are not to be trusted.

We need more folk to keep a look out:) ... but first we need T shirts:whistle:... mmm a new cult..planet gardians:D...

yes wet here...

alex:):):)

[Ian Robinson]

Ha! I was under the impression such specified cult already exists - they are called amateur astronomers and go by the code name of stargazers ....

There are millions of us , yet , by some perverse circumstance , stargazers don't seem to ever see UFO's .... why is that ?:shrug:

[AlexN]

Thats a nice theory... But by said calculation, there is no life in the universe, hence, we dont exist.

I think whilst there may or may not be other life, I would imagine that it would be a LOT less likely that there is no life, and that we reside on the ONLY life supporting planet in the universe. In the galaxy, yes, definitely. but in the Universe... Infinite stars, each with the possibility of having orbiting planets, some of those planets being in the right conditions to support life..


The chances are there. as is the possibility... Im not saying "intelligent life capable of traveling faster than C, or capable of navigating wormholes in order to come here, abduct humans for probing purposes etc.. or doing flybys of populated areas." Im saying, Life. Germs growing and forming... Over time, evolution, etc. maybe more life, multi celled organisims.. in time maybe human like intelligence, maybe even human like form..

There is no way of saying "There is NO life in the universe appart from on Earth" Unless you've been there, you have absolutely NO idea. Nobody does.

Any answers in this thread are purely speculation. Chances/theories/possibilities etc. None of these can ever prove or disprove the existance of something that we can not possibly observe... It can give us a set of numbers with varying accuracy on which to make our hypothisis. But at the end of the day this will always be exactly that. A hypothesis.

I THINK its very unlikely that we are the only life to have ever lived in the entire universe, or that we are the only current living life in the universe. I do doubt that any other life has ever visited us (the chances of finding something the size of earth in an infinite universe would have to be statistically insignificant) however I do think that it is very narrow minded to assume that there is no chance of life, let alone no life out there somewhere.

[Davros]

As was said in Carl Sagans book ............it would be an awful waste of space if we were the only ones.

[deadsimple]

While many people point to Drake's equation when discussing the possibility of extraterrestrial civilisations, I find the Fermi paradox just as important - worth a read if you're still hung up on the idea of "UFOs".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_equation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Personally I see the universe as a big soup of physical/chemical interactions. Intelligent life (or local pockets of 'order' to be a bit pedantic) in my view is inevitable through so many simultaneous processes, that is assuming the laws of physics making the processes possible continue to exist in a time-frame reasonable for such order to come about.

Why haven't we seen any evidence elsewhere? Apart from the huge distances involved and the other points covered in the Fermi paradox, there always has to be a 'first' civilisation. I'm sure that sounds obvious, but what if we are the first? We wouldn't see any evidence but would have to wait around for the 'second', etc.

Now I'm not saying this is what's happening, but it's a possible scenario.

What I don't believe in is 'aliens', seemingly so technologically sophisticated that they can navigate across the galaxy without effort, coming in and newbie crash-landing into Earth and/or hiding outside people's windows and/or hovering and disappearing for no reason. So silly I can't understand why there are serious UFO discussions in the first place.

[jungle11]

Perhaps if a chimpanzee wondered up to one of use while using our telescope to look at 'meaningless' points of light in the sky, he might find the practice silly too:P

[AstralTraveller]

Added to what other skeptics have said, there is also the matter of timing. In a universe 13,700,000,000 years old they happen to appear in just the last 100 years. Even the 2,000,000 years of hominid history is fleeting in comparison. Unless you want to suggest they visit regularly, it's a pretty amazing coincidence for them to arrive just now.

Some may suggest that they came in response to our increase technology. Well we have been transmitting radio that 'they' might hear for 100 years (give or take). So, galactically speaking, even the neighbors have only just heard us. For them to be intelligent, but somewhat clumsy snoops is also a pretty good coincidence.

[Dog Star]

I usually try to stay away from this subject (but I just couldn't help myself)
Somewhere in this huge sprawling continuum of time/space, intelligent life must statistically exist.
As for them visiting us in the recent past - I'd like to believe, it's just that I can't on the available evidence.
I would very much like to be proven to be wrong, however.

[xelasnave]

If we limit the size of the Universe to the size suggested by the big bang, which I think is some 160billion light years across or limit our expectations to the visable Universe some 26 billion lights years we still have a rather huge opportunity for places where we can have life along our preconceived ideas of the "perfect" region ...and that is without introducing opportunities for life maybe using systems other than carbon based.

We, the Milky Way galaxy, have maybe 300 billion suns, and we are finding planets are seemingly "normal" so the percentage of our Suns that have planets that may offer sufficient opportunity, although not determined, may favour a statistical basis for support to the belief many planets that will/may support life.

It would seem strange if we are the only life (Earths including us) to be found within our galaxy... and we are not the only galaxy... so how many opportunities exist...thats right at least 27:whistle:

I think it is understandably arrogant for humans to believe there are no greater species than us... but no doubt there is. If it could be established that we are it... and there is no other life at all out there anywhere... would that make one feel unbelievably depressed ... we are charged with life and probably will screw up the planet before we get to leave it.......if we snuff it out it is then lost for all time???

AND the big question....Will they visit us?...well no based on our beliefs of what they can do (based on what we can do) but we assess the chances by what we believe to be truth... time prevents space travel we believe...but maybe there is a species that are past our stage of development and can run their folk for over a thousand years before they have to be terminated... we have folk right now on our planet who are suggesting death will not be with humans for much longer and although this seem unthinkable maybe there is a species out there who for what ever reason live to ages that enables space travell is possible...

However even if we had over a 1000 species in our galaxy travelling about the numbers suggest it would be a rare event for them to arrive at our particular point in history... and if they are smart enough to travel I would say they would be smart enough not to be noticed and perhaps have no desire to interact with us...

Still there is the chance they are there and ready to invade so lets get some battle stars ready:D... it matters little if they are not used in anger what matters is getting the Earth united against a common even if non existent foe:lol::lol::lol:... so we stop fighting umongst ourselves you see;).

Imagine however the impact of a visit:eyepop:.. I mean like so many movies out there where they land on the lawn at the white house...

I bet our visitors would go say to the police station and be told they would have to come back when the duty guy gets in:P...

how would the add companies go:shrug: ... ratz thats how..imagine the effort to secure rights so the visitors would endorse a particular product...

Would they be the same as us in general appearance... and that leads to the question are our bodies the most efficient generally or will other planets favour more legs or the like,,..

Would the reaction between us and them be like cat and dog ..what customs could they have that we find repulsive...maybe they eat their young and breed not only for procreation but for food...

The important thing with all this is not to let ones imagination get carried away past a gentle exploration of the posibilities and recognition of the stats that will both suggest yes there must be other life maybe smarter than us but the chances that we meet would be remote given the huge spread of time available to them and us...

alex:):):)

[Starkler]

Thats pretty much my position too.

As for visiting aliens making themselves obvious and making contact, well they have probably watched star trek and adopted The Prime Directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive) as a good idea.:whistle:

[styleman333]

I like to imagine the human race as a tiny fish living in a rock pool by the sea..... to the fish the rock pool is their world and all that exists . The fish cant contemplate the teeming oceans and world full of live outside its own environment until some situation happens to force it to see it.

[jungle11]

Nice analogy, it pains me sometimes to think I'll only ever see this short piece of history (a lifetime) We think life began here 3.9 billion years ago, and here I am to see our first forays into space, the massive acceleration of our science, technology and understanding of ourselves, our world, and our universe. I should consider myself 'flukishly' lucky to have come along now.
But, I complain to myself, if only I could see what takes place over the next few millennia (if we last that long!) Kind of a downer to think I'll kick the bucket without ever knowing the answers to some of the fundamental questions we all ask ourselves from time to time.

P.S. Perhaps we should hold off on the death star Alex, lest we shoot ourselves with it:P

[joe_smith]

If you look at the recored history of man it goes way, way further back than that. :whistle:

[AlexN]

Styleman33 - Fantastic analogy indeed..

Greg, I get that same feeling sometimes... How happy I am to be living in these, very exciting times in human development, where we are always discovering new things, and making incredible advancements in science, and technology.. However sad that I will only get to see a finite amount of human history. I fear that the years after my time may be even more exciting than the time I have, And I sure dont want to miss out. :)

Now back to building my Live-forever-inator... :)

Alex.

[Clarry]

Maybe so, but I reckon that since man started flying, the frequency of UFO sightings has accelerated. Perhaps because we now know how to defy gravity, our bogey men take on even greater powers.

It's weird that aliens are intelligent enough to cross galaxies at phenomenal speeds and then make 90 deg turns at these same speeds with no effect on their vessels occupants, yet their medical science is somewhat lacking. How many cows must they abduct before they know how they work?



http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s300/sjclark1967/FarSideFriendly.jpg

[jungle11]

:lol::rofl::lol:

Sorry, the cow reminded me of the spaceship trying to lift homer on the simpsons..

[Glenhuon]

Just been reading the news before coming on here and this thread reminded me of "Pray that there's intelligent life, somewhere out in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth" :)
If there are Warp capable civilisations out there, they are not going to talk to us any time soon. ( Mostly Harmless, or as the Vulcans are reputed to say, "Too Primitive to contact") :lol:

Bill

[AstralTraveller]

That would be one factor. The realisation of the size of the universe (external galaxies), our own ability to get into space and some clown reading War of the Worlds on radio :doh: would be others. I remember reading that the rise in doomsday cults was due to the great meteor shower of 1844.

[joe_smith]

There is no evidence they/them/its come from galaxies far far away they might be a phenomenon in our own solar system and they have been here longer than us. Something more than just random events have led humans to where we are today, If not we should still be swinging in the trees with the rest of the natural creatures on our planet.

[ving]

...the truth is out there!


I am an alien.

[xelasnave]

:lol:I have wondered if Jupiter is simply a more advanced Earth with all the pollution that such advancement would generate:scared:.

So under all the clouds there may be a race battling with extreme climate change and self generated polution:rolleyes:....there we go another cult opportunity:D..mmm I think brown uniforms as this group probably wont wash:lol::lol::lol:...

It is so wonderful that we live in an age where such matters can be contemplated:).. life in general ..I have already lost favor with the polluted Jupiter idea:screwy:..... I have no doubt that life will prove abundant, not beings better than us of course as we are obviously number one in the Universe:whistle:, and we may find it (life) within our solar system in regions not yet thought posible to manage life.

I feel life may be more interested in energy than any other aspect and maybe even water is a secondary consideration....which would open the books considerably:).

So we dont want any criters out there that could get into our crops here on Earth so again lets build some battle stars:D ..armed with canon and crop dusting gear:whistle:.

ANYWAYS... we expect any visitors to be of a size that we could see them easily...

we figure that any alien will be almost as big as us and unattractive in comparrison... however I would think that an advanced species...such that could space travell, and can engineer their folks to run for 1000 years before termination would have genetically engineered themselves to be real small... and that makes sence you see for a planet that is running out of room... imagine if we were only the size of ants the price of real estate would be a lot less..and presumably having a command greater than our in the nano teck area small makes sence;)....and so my money is on the fact that they will be very small and their craft very small:lol::lol::lol:..less materials less energy etc... so would we see them:shrug:.

Their craft may be so small we would need a microscope to see them:eyepop::scared:...mmm new places to look and another cult I suspect:lol::lol:.

alex:):):)

alex:):):)

[jungle11]

Microscopic aliens....that would scare the socks off germaphobics everywhere, wondering if aliens are crawling up their gazoots while they sleep - forget about the probes!:lol:

You really are set apon this death star idea, aren't you alex?:whistle:

I always say how much i hate guns n stuff, but everytime an F111 flies over our house (they train out this way) I get a shiver - man they're cool!:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

I dislike warfare and I conclude that there is however a need for certain members of our species to conduct war...well they need a foe;)...so I give them one in the hope all military resources and personel are mustered at the edge of our Solar system to repell attacks:P...they can have war games rec leave and stuff but maybe such a system could keep them off the planet...the military not the aliens:whistle:...

In contemplating other species we should not look down upon them in the widest sence but we regard anything of a small size as somewhat inferior...well maybe there is a species out there somewhere...not necessarily with plans to come here by the way...that are real small:shrug:...

If life was cut back to insects on this planet I wonder if say ants could develope in a similar manner to us...

I heard a show in which the narrator assigned mere bacteria with "inteligence"...by a reasonable criteria such that one was inclined to agree...

The point is finally we are finding more facts that surprise us in respect of life and its abilities to survive and flourish...look at those ocean vents and the "brine lakes" in our oceans... folk would have bet against it 15 years ago.


Hey the jets fly over here as well at tree top level :scared:..even eye level when I think about it:scared::scared:...

When in real estate I was letting a house and the tenants, young men , were flyers of such jets ..I told them about this place and they knew it because they used to line up the house across the road to fly across the valley:eyepop:. They said if you can photograph them they will send you an ariel of your place...well they said it b ut I dont know if that is Airforce policy.

alex:):):)

[Dog Star]

Ants develop like us? Come on Alex, you're not the sort of bloke who doesn't pay attention to the world around you.
Ants are the virtual masters of their own world. They harvest almost everything around them for food; they exploit their environment in imaginative ways; they wage virtual war on anything that crosses their path regardless of species type; they have developed societies that are both complex and brutally efficient; they are unhampered by superfluous emotion or morality.
The main differences between ants and humans are that they are smaller than us and far more efficient at what they do.
If we ever encounter aliens with similar qualities, the human race will very quickly become extinct.
For ants to develop like us would involve a backward evolutionary step for the ants.
"Go to the ants, thou sluggard. Learn of their ways and be wise."

[Babalyon 5]

Mmmmmmm.......My life is based on what I can prove, who I am, photo drivers license, birth certificate, make a 100 pionts at the bank so you can change your own d**n accounts. I think religion and UFO's fall into that category for me also. Come down here, make 100 points and I'll believe you!!:rofl:

[billsmith]

This is why UFO are what they are

Mainstream media is governed by a set of rules they must adhere to. These rules aren't so much about no sex scenes or vulgar mouthing off.....these rules relate to what they cannot under any circumstances present to the public.
UFO's ammongst other subjects is one of them.
WHY..................?????

Lets sit back and think for a bit...we're all intelligent beings hence why we are on this discussion forum in the first place.

Lets put our thinking caps on and listen and learn.

For this example UFO's will be substitued for a tree.
The unknown powers that be will be...uuummmmmmmmmm known as bob.

Now one morning the bob is minding his own business working as ususal. At coffee break time he decides to go out the back of the building for a smoke. As he is enjoying the glorious sunshine he glances over the fence across to the native bushland to see what he believes is a very interesting looking tree. He thinks he has time to spend so jumps the fence and gets up close for a look at this tree.
Why is he so interested in this tree?
Well he noticed from over the fence these green and yellow blossoms coming out from each branch. Upon close inspection he sees these blossoms are in fact $50 notes....what you may say $50 notes growing from this tree....not just one or two but dozens and dozens of $50 notes blossoming from this tree.

Now poor bob has a problem on his hands......being the human he is with human traits and characteristics and may i add the main of all human flaws (greed) he decides this tree is coming home with him, he isnt going to let anyone have this tree as he is thinking of the immense wealth he will obtain from this tree.

So promptly he begins to dig this tree from its place of seed and drives home to plant it in his back yard away from public eye.

Months and months pass as bob enjoys the lifestyle of being rich....his tree produces note after note and he loves this lifestyle.....he now has POWER over his friends and family......he can buy what he wants, go where chooses .....why??????.....because he has all this money thanks to his little tree....aaawwwwww how cute.


Problems arise for poor bob.....with all the care and nutrients he gives this tree he doesnt realise that over the months he has had it in his back yard that a seed blew over his fence to the neighbouring park.

A SEEDLING HAS BEGUN GROWING IN THE PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

So one brisk morning sue is walking her dog astro through the park and suddenly stumbles across this funny looking tree. Upon closer inspection she nearly collapses to her knees as she sees the impossible.........$50 notes growing from this tree...heaps of them.

Oh ....what does she do...she runs back to home to tell barry and trish her neighbours about her find.....you can guess what their response was.

'Sue honey you gotta be joking...you need to see a doctor....money doesn't grow on trees' says barry jokingly.

poor sue is embarrassed but she knows in all her mind she seen what she seen......'how can they not believe me' she thinks to herself.


well through conversation that afternoon at the pub barry tells his mates about this tree sue was talking about....bob enjoying his beer overhears the conversation and no sooner is out to the park to see the tree growing . promptly he yanks it out of the ground takes it home away from any eyes.

good ole baz, trish and sue take a quick drive to the park and the tree doesnt exist anymore much to barry's expected outcome. he and trish give sue one last chuckle and tell her to see a doctor or get married...lol


so what have we learnt here.

money growing on trees does sound highly impossible........because we havnt seen it happen yet......but bob has....he knows its real and for many years to come this tree allows him to literally become australias most powerfull man in charge of very powerfull and wealthy corporations whom have been built on the rewards of genetically altering the tree's genetic build to enhance growth of more notes....he even has trees that grow $100 notes now.....and all this is done away from public eyes in the secrecy of his well hidden organsiations.

poor sue and the many others whom may have seen this seedling in the park will go on living their lives being laughed at everytime they tell their story of the money tree.

bob will at some stage own so much that he buys the tv networks and newspaper companies. The reason behind this is to discredit any sightings of these money tree seedlings that may surface from to time to time. his highly paid employees will search for these trees and move them away from the public so more and more people will discredit those who claim to have seen one and the media stations that bob owns just makes these witnesses a joke and laughing stock for all the country to laugh at when they go on tv to tell of their story......because we know money doesnt grow on trees..........or does it?
are UFO real?.....YES
have i seen craft in the sky here in oz......oooohh yes.....the hairs on the back of your neck do really stand up...trust me they do
do the powers that exist in our world know of their existance?....YES
do they possess technology that would benefit our environment and way of living....YES
will these powers share the important technology they discovered and now possess with you and I and the millions of hungry men, women and children around the world to remove poverty and give heating, cooling and clean drinking water at zero cost of energy....NO
there are a lot of things in this world that you nor i understand and may never understand or be told about.....but there are people in this world whom do know what exists out there beyond the stars and will never tell you or i as this is their money tree which allows them to be in charge always and forever.
open your mind and think like you are meant to....dont blind yourself with ignorance that is pumped into you from reality tv and whether brittany is having another baby....there is more to life than the ususal day to day stupid issues we have on earth. Enjoy your telescopes and what they allow you to see....you may one day see a money tree seedling as bob did by mistake.

Let the user ask about UFO and dont mock him...some of you dont undertand the subject he is asking about and yet you clearly state its all a bag of lies and hocus pocus as if you know first hand.

IF YOU ONLY KNEW............................... ..........................

Thankyou

[jungle11]

Well, that's one way of putting it...I personally don't seek to mock people who claim to have seen them. I was first to try and help the poster of this thread, and I know what you mean about mocking. Most people respect others opinions, but there's always a few who 'know' they're right.
In saying this I do believe a significant portion of these reports have misinterperated, or are lying. But, yes, I believe for some of the reasons i mentioned in my first post.
On March 30, 1990, the Belgium Air Force scrambled two F-16s after over 100 people reported several UFOs. Two radar tracking stations recorded contacts that correlated with observers positions.
In addition to these stations, the fighters also had contacts at these same positions. Everytime they 'locked-on' with onboard targeting systems the object on radar would move erratically, and with disrespect for how manmade aircraft should move. One movement was a drop in altitude from 3000 to 1700 meters in 1 second (recorded from one jet and on the ground).
The Airforce publicly released all of this, so you've got 100 witnesses, seperate radar facilities, two fighter jet pilots....
Fair enough some people wont believe, but people who do are not complete loons i don't think. Nobody knocks religion (no offence intended - niether do i)

Don't know about government involvement though. Like someone mentioned earlier - if their so advanced, why should they crash in a lightning storm?

enough - i told myself i wouldn't post on this one again - but alas, i am drawn like a moth to a flame!

[xelasnave]

Welcome billsmith to iceinspace.
I hope my comments have not been interpreted as mocking.
My point is to keep an open mind irrespective of ones present beliefs.
Life must be out there wheter it comes here is up for consideration but currently there seems no hard evidence.
UFO's are just that...Unidentified Flying Objects...they have not been identified as alien or any thing else so the matter is open for speculation but dwell on the word...specualtion.. I speculate on many things yet I keep my feet on the ground and work with the realities I feel confident with.

So where are the photos..I thought someone would have one by now.

alex

[jungle11]

there are thousands of photos collected on the net alex. just google ufo photos. Question is, are they all fake, or are some of them real?
Lots of photos these days can't be proven either way - computers can make fakes look indistinguishable from real. So photographic evidence will never be proof.

[xelasnave]

i am shattered that folk may use fake photos...

As I said it is always a case of folk believe what they want to believe so some will say the photos are absolute proof without any thought that a photo may not be for real...

I did a small movie of a small light moving around to replicate a ufo... it was very convincing with me shouting over on the audio... "quick come out and look at this etc"..a mate is teaching me movie making and impressed upon me the value of audio because that suggests what you want the viewer to accept... and with the fear in my voice the movie seemed real... I have showed it to folk and it is surprising those who believe it is for real... it is good admittedly:D and difficult to figure how it was done but rock solid evidence for those who want to believe....

alex :):):)

[jungle11]

Yep, there's more than one group of believers.
There's the government flying around in reverse engineered craft using principles humans couldn't possibly understand types.

And there's the one's more like myself, who stand a foot from the fence with one finger touching - trying not to forget the logical points raised here in this forum, but facinated by some pretty convincing evidence that UFOs (whatever they may be) might just be a real phenomenon. The belgium evidence is pretty hard to dismiss i think.

But, in my case, the x files addage 'I want to believe' applies and I need to stop myself sometimes from getting carried away over speculation.

[xelasnave]

Speculation is fun...absolute belief in anything is dangerous.

Anywyas we wont see any UFO's... the jets patrol the area here and although they never say as much it is to keep the UFO's away...

I find it ammussing the current belief in black holes ... the theory suggests the possibility and now the observations support the theory..understandable but dangerous in my view. AND because the theory suggest it those who believe find the observations as clear proof... I dont and still happy to speculate on alternatives without a commitment to any belief one way or the other.

In fact I do not believe in anything.... so I am a fence sitter as well I guess.

alex

[avandonk]

I do not bother to even read let alone answer these sort of posts. For all our rationalities some of we humans are really superstitious! Show me a body or any artefact of aliens. Sorry a spear does not count. Anal probe maybe? Why in the very complex mathematical Universe would an alien use an anal probe? Does he really think your brain is in your arse?

Bert

With this sort of thinking the Alien is correct!

[xelasnave]

:lol::lol::lol:

I always wondered about folk who claim they have had such torment... and there are some who say they were abducted and probed... do they believe what they say... it is sad to think people can be so deluded.

So turn your radio to JJJ they are doing an end of the world thing 2012 is the date they are setting....a parade of sad folk who are so convinced.

I just found out that the reason we are naked is because that means we can be closer to God"....you learn something every day I guess.

AND God is intervening at the end will kill millions to save us:eyepop:

Nice photos also Bert:thumbsup:.

alex:):):)

[astroron]

As an astronomer of over twenty years , and have spent perhaps a thousand hours under the stars, I have yet to see anything that defies explanation.
As was said to me once by a UFO buff I will never see one because I don't believe, the I meaning me Ron, not the UFO buff.
Some of the stuff written on this question is just plain rediculous.
Just my two bobs worth, and is my last post on the matter.
Ron

[avandonk]

I do this for my own enjoyment AND everybody's.

Bert

[jungle11]

Pretty dumb thing for a believer to say:lol:

yep, thats cool - I've spent lots of time looking up, not for ufos, just dreaming. Seen a few things that seemed wierd at first, but with a little scrutiny, easily explanable.
But I also think that, if planes and such didn't have running lights, you wouldn't see them either - ahh there's no help for me hehe..;)

[xelasnave]

Hey after that JJJ show I was listening to about Doomsdayers we need a new thread...

I felt intolerant at first then sorry for them...yes pity them was my final thought...

why do people have to think such crap... and if the end is coming why should one care for goodness sake... stuff happens.

alex

[Jen]

Who do you think makes all these dam clouds happen around here :lol::lol:
when the clouds are out they are flying up there having a great time :rofl:
ok i will be quiet now :D:whistle:

[ngcles]

Hi Bill and All,

Hmmm ...

In response to what you have posted Bill I won't mock (this time) but will reproduce a quote from Phil Plait (The Bad Astronomer) in an email just the other day and it perfectly reflects my own attitude:


Now, let me make this as absolutely clear as possible (which will be to no avail, because I have been very clear before, and UFO proponents still manage to completely mangle what I’m saying): if you want me to think that UFOs are not just misidentified mundane objects, then all you have to do — and it really is this simple — is provide me with evidence.

Here, let me make this even clearer:

PROVIDE ME WITH EVIDENCE.

What do I count as evidence? Hard, physical data. Not eyewitness reports (because even the most highly-credentialed person in the world can misidentify something, or not understand what they are seeing, or may suffer from an episode, or decide to lie, or just be simply wrong). Not fuzzy photos. Not fuzzy video.

I want hard, physical data. I want an alien on the White House lawn. I want a piece of metal with clearly non-terrestrial isotope ratios of components, or be composed of some currently non-discovered element. I want some piece of predictive evidence — a map of an alien world that can eventually be verified, or an alien-given advance in physics that can later be verified with the LHC or some other cutting-edge technology. And nothing vague like "a unified field theory exists"; it has to be definite and precise, so that there is no controversy.

Do you think this is too demanding? I have news for you: you’re asking me to believe in something that will revolutionize all of human existence. I think demanding some actual evidence for such a thing is not only not too much to ask, but is to be demanded. (emphasis added)

I believe life in our Milky Way Galaxy is rare, and intelligent life is probably exceptionally rare -- I'd be surprised if there are more than say a dozen civilisations and it may be as few as one (ie us). Like so many here, I've been watching the sky very carefully for several decades -- many thousands of hours of observing with a (hopefully) objective eye, and I've never seen one thing I couldn't explain. I do not accept that there are alien space-ships visiting us, nor that there is a conspiracy(s) to cover it up.

The one other problem I have with the whole subject is this: They should not be called "UFOs". We have no proof on a vast number of occasions they are reported that they are "objects" nor that they are "flying". Instead, they should be called "Unidentified Ariel Sightings" or "UAS".

Best,

Les D

[jjjnettie]

Alex, they think this sort of crap because their brains are vacant, their lives are boring and they want to create some drama and excitement in their lives.
They grasp on to superstitions, omens, horoscopes and pseudo sciences and allow themselves to be guided by them.
It's sad, because a lot of these people are quite intelligent, and given some education, could be set straight.
Hmmmm, but then again I could be wrong there, I was showing a local School teacher the conjunction the other night, and then she started rabbiting on about Astrology. :shrug:

[jungle11]

Wish I could argue with that Les, but of course that quote is correct - whatever your personal beliefs. I don't think a lack of hard evidence rules out the possibility but by the same token - none of us are ever going to prove something as potentially important as visiting aliens without it.
I think if we were flying around buzzing aliens, we would make quite sure not to leave any hard evidence lying around - especially on a planet dominated by a species who might use technology gained to exploit each other. If they have been watching us - then they've already seen how close we've come to nuclear war on a couple of occasions over the last 60 years.

[billsmith]

yes i agree we and all need proof.



remember the employees that go around removing the trees from around the place.


this is one of the main reasons why we dont see or have enough physical proof..........its worth so much that many many complicated measures are employed to hush the existance.


remember people we aren't talking about a new toaster or electric shaver here....its revolutionising technology that will change the world as we know it.


whether you realise it or not...some of this tech has in the past 50 years been introduced into our daily lives without you knowing and passed of as inventions when in fact it was handed down to the manufacturers for domestisizing.


no, aliens will not land on the lawn of any colored house or what not.

its not allowed as far as protocol is concerned.


bob doesnt want the trees existance to be proved because the whole world would benefit.

Some interesting facts for you all


Close encounters of the 3rd kind, ET and Independance Day were all produced with objectives to see how the population after viewing these movies would react - This is fact.


Yes proof would be nice


Soon it will surface............................ ........................

[astroron]

Bill Smith, What other conspiracy theories do you have?
You must have lots.

[jungle11]

There's some pretty big statements there, and apart from your admission that we require proof, they sound to me very much like statements of fact. You think Steven Spielburg is an alien spy, or a government agent? Do you think velcro was discovered on an alien environment suit? Or computer chips? What makes you think we could even understan alien techmology that might well be many millenia more advanced than ours?

Sorry, perhaps I am mocking - but if all this stuff was hushed, then why is it written about in a hundred books, and pasted all over the internet?

Don't get me wrong, I think there's something to UFO's or UAV's as the RAAF refer to them, but I think you have to be carefull not to get sucked into some of the folklore. Because humans are big on faith and storytelling.

Sorry, don't want to offend, just be careful cause belief and faith can be powerful things.

[capella]

What is this thread doing on IIS? This is utter drivel.
With all due respect I think these 'Ufologists' Knowledge of the universe and astronomy lays somewhere between haven't got a clue and no bleedin' idea, they can't tell an asteroid from a haemorrhoid (unless of course they are being anally probed).

Gawd help us,

Steve.

[jungle11]

If you don't like it, don't look at it.
This is General Chat anyways....

[capella]

General chat yes, utter drivel chat no.
I cannot believe in these enlightend times people believe in Alien UFO's.

Steve.

[jungle11]

Most who posted on this thread feel the same way as you, and state all manner of good reasons as to why they dont believe.
I wouldn't say we are enlightened when it comes to the possibility of intelligence other than our own in the galaxy.
However unlikely, it is possible

Anyways, I don't think it's hurting anybody, seems this thread is pretty popular. People should be free to chat about what they like (OK, maybe drugs would be stretching it.

I'm not religeous, but if somebody started a thread about it here, i would respect that

cheers:)

[capella]

Greg,
I have no issue with the possibility of life, intelligent or not 'out there' but....flying saucers:P
and yes I agree with you this has been a popular thread.

Steve:thumbsup:

[AstralTraveller]

At least we know that the drugs are real :P . OK, yes, that would be stretching it..... then again some frequently get an approving mention :drink:.

[xelasnave]

I would like to think that what we may embrace here is simply to be able to consider posibilities:)...anyone who takes a stand and says something is a fact can be standing on dangerous ground... having said that I would be astounded if there was anyhting to all the stories in terms of other life visiting us...still it may be...

If there is something we should learn from history it is there have been times where something was unthinkable only to finally prove the norm...human flight for example... anyone suggesting such was posible only a short time ago would have been treated with a degree a contempt stronger than what the UFO folk probably get today...

History tells me although we think we are so clever other civilizations through out time also had a similar high opinion of their own importance and understanding of everything...well we are smart but what will future civilizations think of us... well let me venture a thought.... they may see us in the same manner as we say look at the old tomb builders of Eygypt:shrug:.... they thought they were so cool and had all the answers but time has shown their intelectual arrogance to be stupid.

For those who think this thread is silly I think that is unfortunate and suggests that they miss the point I feel comes out of this thread... keep an open mind... and enjoy a chat...it is after all a chat:D.

But look at the following on this thread some folk must be getting some fun...so that is good:thumbsup:.

AND to make it clear to those who cant find the tounge in cheek humour that I try to indulge I dont believe in anything but will hear it out;)...everyone is entitled to an opinion and it does not matter if they are right or wrong they can have their opinion it is that simple...

ANYWAYS I like this thread more so with this weather..its a pain isnt it?? the weather I mean.

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Can you imagine what it is like to be in a community where astrology and strange beliefs is the norm...well I am in one;)..my mate who I sailed the boat for down from Brisbane reads tarot cards for example ..and the crazy lady who demands my time is into astrology...I roll up and it is..." oh my Jupiter is in your 5th house you are going to have a tuff week"..or whatever....

well I dont tell her she is stupid ..it is her opinion and she is entitled to it...I dont share it...and as hard as it is to accept not everyone thinks push gravity is the way it is:lol::lol::lol:...so who am I to judge:whistle:.


but it is sad to see her governed by external forces she attributes to the motion of the planets simply because such an approach abdigates personal responsibility and that is the most dangerous thing for any human.

Funny I had a girl come up to me today asking if I had shot the Jupiter Venus Moon conjunction because she missed it ...so that was really outta place for Tabulam... but all the girls around here are into astrology and one gets labled with attributes given to star signs...

the crazy lady when she talks to my neighbour and my name comes up (rarely i HOPE) SAYS.. "Oh yes Alex he is a capricorn" as if that expalins why I am who I am....he has given up arguing and now lets her go... smart man for he can not win..and she is sad for that reason astrology lets her be a victim... I hate it when she says that "we" suited romantically because the stars say it..well I dont buy it and I am happy just being friends....and is that not typical capricorn for you:lol::lol::lol:

alex :):):)

[AstralTraveller]

So what is this? It's a modern fairy tale, that's all it is. If that 'proves' the existence of UFOs then I can prove the existence of talking wolves, talking pigs and ginger bread men. Give me a break!

In any case, even by its own rules the story is full of holes. Why didn't Sue grab a few handfuls of evidence like any sane person? How did Barry explain his sudden wealth? Does the tree produce notes with serial numbers? As his socio-economic power grew why didn't those who already have power take care of this upstart?

Bah humbug.

[ngcles]

Hi Bill & All,

Okay, I'll bite one more time and I promise I won't mock (this time).

Bill, in your last post you state a number of conclusions and make claims about certain "facts". All I ask is for verifiable proof that substantiates the claims and "facts". And by the way, a fine sounding and on the face of it clever analogy in no way constitutes proof (and BTW, the analogy is fatally flawed in many ways).

Can you provide verifiable proof for these statements:

Bill wrote:

"this is one of the main reasons why we dont see or have enough physical proof..........its worth so much that many many complicated measures are employed to hush the existance."

Please provide the evidence that backs up the two statements here.


Bill wrote:

"whether you realise it or not...some of this tech has in the past 50 years been introduced into our daily lives without you knowing and passed of as inventions when in fact it was handed down to the manufacturers for domestisizing."

Please provide the evidence that backs up this claim.



Bill wrote:

"Close encounters of the 3rd kind, ET and Independance Day were all produced with objectives to see how the population after viewing these movies would react - This is fact." (emphasis added)

Please provide the evidence that backs up this claim.


Without proof, they are not "facts" -- they amount to no more than wild speculation.

If there is verifiable incontrovertible evidence, then I'd be all ears because I think it'd be great to have contact with the so called "visitors" and I'd be the first to shake hands (pseudopodia ... whatever ...) and offer them a beer and a chat -- but it is my opinion it just won't be happening.


Best,

Les D

[Jen]

:ship1::ship1::ship1:
just passing by this thread is interesting :lol:

[jungle11]

Guess I've learned the dangers of discussing politics, religion, push gravity:P....and UFOs.;)

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol: lol Greg :thumbsup:

[skwinty]

Hmmm,

There has been an alien on the white house lawn numerous times in the last 50 years.

Given that the earth and all thats on it is a product of the universe, why should ET's spacecraft consist of anything different.

Now, I cant say that there are aliens, but I can't say that there are not.
I can only say that there are no aliens because I have not seen one, or that there are aliens because I have seen one.

Surely the burden of proof is a two way street.

Prove that there are or prove that there are not.

Either way, INMHO, neither side has the moral highground.

[xelasnave]

If you read my latest post I hope you keep all that in mind Steve:lol::lol::lol:
it is about everything;)
alex:):):)

[ngcles]

Hi Skwinty & All,

Skwinty wrote:

"Surely the burden of proof is a two way street.

Prove that there are or prove that there are not.

Either way, INMHO, neither side has the moral highground."

Okay, well I'd say it isn't a two way street, I'd say that if one asserts, then the burden is on that person to prove. Notwithstanding, I'll try below to explain the basis of my opinion. There is no way in the world I'll pass it off as fact, it isn't -- its an opinion which (I think) is reasonably well grounded. Argue by all means but at least produce some substance to support an argument.

Also, this is not a question of moral high-ground. There is no "high-ground" here -- we are just looking at the evidence that either supports or contradicts a proposition.

First up, take a look at this thread:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=34210&page=2

You will see in posts 25 & 52 the guts of my statistical argument in support of the notion that intelligent life in the Milky Way Galaxy is at the very least not common -- more probably very rare. It is based partly on scientific evidence and partly on reasoning and reaches a conclusion there that there are in the order of 10 civilisations in the Milky Way Galaxy out of 300,000,000,000 stars. ie 1 star in 30,000,000,000 has an itelligent civilisation that is capable of making and using complex tools, solving complex problems and manipulating their environment to their advantage.

I'd also invite you to look at the other opinions there and weigh them all carefully.

Following that, I'll let you do the maths on this:

The Milky Way is about 120,000 ly diameter and about 1,000ly thick. Now work out the volume of the galaxy. Now proceeding on the assumption there are 10 civilisations work out on average how many cubic light-years per civilisation.

Now do the maths assuming 100 civilisations and even 1000 if you like.

They are all extremely large figures and I think the higher figure (based on about 10 civilisations) is the much more likely.

Based on this, I reckon inteligent life is rare -- by any definition.

Even if "they" happened (by pure fluke) to be reasonably nearby they would have to journey 10s or 100s (more likely 10s of 1000s) of light-years to reach us.

The theories of General and Special Relativity have passed every scientific test thrown at them (and there have been dozens) with flying colours. The conclusive scientific evidence at this stage (and this all is we can go on -- anything else is speculation and there is no evidence to the contrary) is that light-speed travel is impossible meaning interstellar journeys within meaningful timeframes are simply out of the equation. Based on the evidence at this stage, interstellar flight is a "flight of fancy".

One can easily throw a whole stack of speculative ideas and wishful thinking into the equation that somehow allows faster than light travel meaning interstellar travel is possible by some means but there is no evidence I am aware of to support them -- at all. All the credible evidence supports relativity and the prohibition on matter travelling at or faster than light-speed.

There is simply very, very little credible evidence of alien space-craft visiting this planet. There is a whole stack of quite non-credible evidence.

On all the above, I hold an opinion that aliens are not visiting Earth. I'm not passing my opinion off as "fact" -- it is an opinion. I find the evidence to the contrary is lacking substance and is unconvincing to say the least. I know that all sounds very hard, cold and calculating but is the way I see it.


Best,

Les D

[xelasnave]

Even if every solar system in our galaxy had inteligent life the prospect of travell seems remote ... unless they live to 1000 years which would change the opportunity one would think.
C travel would seem unatainable even fractions of c would be difficult...how much would it cost to fill the tank even at a cent a kilometer it would be an expensive trip one would think.
But then maybe they have licked the energy problem but it still does not mean they would come here...mmm unless they have heard our transmissions and are on the way to find out who is filling space with noise.

alex

[xelasnave]

Lets consider why would they visit or better still where would we go and why if we were able???
alex

[skwinty]

Hi LesD,
There are those who assert the existence of aliens and those who assert that aliens are drivel (unadulterated).
From my own perspective, I cannot prove either viewpoint, nor do I commit to either viewpoint, purely because I do not know nor do I have any evidence to suggest that they do or don't exist.
Neither of these groups occupy any form of highground.(moral, scientific or evidential)
How can anyone make any of these assertions with out proof?
I do not doubt any of modern science, but, scientific knowledge is not the final word on everything. Science is after all about observable phenomena, and the inferrences drawn from those observations.

The main reason I made the post was to respond to Phil Plaits quote which you posted, to which I replied.

There has been an alien on the white house lawn numerous times in the last 50 years.

Given that the earth and all thats on it is a product of the universe, why should ET's spacecraft consist of anything different.

The first was an attempt at humour and the second an valid question.
You never made any mention of this in your opinion / fact reply.

[ngcles]

Hi Steve % All,

Yep, I got the line about the White House lawn -- and you're right there!

Regarding the "Given that the earth and all thats on it is a product of the universe, why should ET's spacecraft consist of anything different.

The first was an attempt at humour and the second an valid question.
You never made any mention of this in your opinion / fact reply."

Yep, that's a valid criticism ("anything different"), but I think the point is that like me, Phil Plait wants solid proof of some type to back the claims -- not another wobbly video of a drunken UFO. Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof. I need something that can't be faked, made up etc to change my mind.

Am I "anti-alien"? Not at all! I'm open to change my opinion if some real evidence turns up, or they land in my backyard and ask for directions to Barnard's Star. I'm open minded but this does not equate to being "vacant-minded". I just don't think the evidence is going to turn up, or that they are about to land in the backyard tonight (or any night) for the reasons above.

There has been some criticism of this thread as a whole. Personally, I don't think the criticism valid -- it is one of the "most asked questions" of amateur astronomers by the public and I know hardly a night goes by at Sydney Observatory when someone won't ask the question "Well, are we alone?" and then "Have we been visited?" I think it is good to have an opinion on these things (whatever it is) and some evidence to back it.

What I really take issue with more than anything is opinion, conjecture or speculation being represented as "fact" -- many people have a lot trouble distinguishing between the two.

BTW, Really looking forward to the cricket test series in a few weeks time -- it should be a cracker!



Best,

Les D

[skwinty]

Yes it will be a good test regardless of who wins.
Of course I am rooting for the Springboks!!
Pity I can only watch on the telly and not have grandstand seats.

[Clarry]

Umm, I do believe the South African Cricket Team are called The Proteas, although I think they use to be Springboks like their rugby brothers.

[Ian Robinson]

Or just ignore it like I do , unless I need a good laugh.

:lol:

[sjastro]

Personally I don't believe in UFOs which is based on "faith" rather than evidence.

The arguments against UFOs are based on "argumentum ad ignorantiam" or "appeal to ignorance" which states the lack of evidence is proof for non existance. This is a logical fallacy.

Ironically science is attacked this way all the time. Creationists (or Intelligent Designists in disguise) frequently employ this logic.

Of the individuals in this group Alex is the main perpetrator.;)

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you cheeky man:D

Although I do not crave such recognition Steven it is nice to at least to be seen as holding a position that can be defined in such a manner:lol::lol::lol:.

Lets unite and bag "inteligent" design ..they are a group that unfortunately get up my nose the way I get up the nose of others with my thoughts on stuff.

Again I say this specifically in respect of UFO's but what I say can be applied somewhat universally...

"Facts are qualified by ones personal experience and there is no getting away from that ...so one should keep an open mind and never never never become dogmatic...and if one looks to my approach to push gravity, the big bang, dark matter and things generally one will observe I am far from dogmatic;)...unfortunately I fail to pre qualify most of what I say with those famous words..."in my humble opinion" ...but then this failing is not limited to my approach to stuff as I have observed such in others:whistle:.

So where do "inteligent designers" place UFO's in their system of things... maybe like finding fossils... sent by God to temp out faith in the word no doubt.

One can imagine other species out there I feel with ease ...however the question as to why they would come here I doubt can be answered readily by those who assert that they come... although their annal probing probably points us in a reasonable direction:shrug:.

mmmm now I know why ET has such long fingers:lol::lol::lol:.

alex:):):)

[jungle11]

Hi guys,,,,IIMMM BAAACK! Call the men with the butterfly nets:rofl:

ncgles, Can't fault your rationalism, and agree that applying what we currently know about life, that it would seem to be pretty rare.
All our available evidence suggests that life began on this world about 4bln years ago. It would appear that this planet was condusive in many ways to life, but then again life adapts like a UFO nutter to wild theories:P
But even with warm, salty oceans and so on life remained at a single cell stage for over 3bln years thus drawing the question - how often will life even get passed this stage?
Luckily we did, allong came multicellular life, different species, the first plants on land, animals - forgive me, im not an evolutionary biologist so this is a bit vague.
Then, throughout history there were setbacks - would we have developed without them? I'd say proberly not - we don't believe mamals would have found a foothold if the dinosaurs remained kings.
Then you look at today, intelligence is attributed to a number of animals, dolphins for example - but what will dolphins ever accomplish without opposable thums? Or elephants...
Even then, no other primate has made the jump we did way back when. It would appear we are a fluke, who knows how many things actually had to happen to mould the potential for minds like ours? I believe we are only here because of evolution, and evolution itself is not aware - there is no bias towards intelligence. Perhaps intelligence is ultimately more dangerous than benificial?

So no, it seems foolhardy to venture that another fluke of evolution is visiting us. But I do not believe my mind is vacant, far from it. I'm no genius, but I have a solid respect for scientific reasoning. I also have respect for all the times in history where people were laughed at, only to be proven right later on.
Look, im not going to ask a skeptic to look at the reports of ufo's and such any more than a christian is going to get me to read the bible. If one's mind is made up, it usually stays that way unless proof comes allong to the contrary.
I see many things on this subject that I cant get passed, some can, but I cannot. Thousands of credible witnesses - sure many may not be so credible - but not all in my opinion. Radar evidence backed up by visual sightings. All the Belgium info is available - if it wasn't a craft of some sort, how could one explain how it moved? It was there - no doubt about that. Three simultaneous traces can't be a glitch? Over 100 witnesses on the ground reporting it were underneath it's flightpath on radar. Those witnesses, though seperated reported the same thing. It moved against the wind....

Can I prove this, of course not. But an airforce, backed by a government, released this information....

When things like this have happened....I think it's silly not to keep an open mind.

[xelasnave]

Does this help????

from the famous Wiki.......

there are........

Two types of statements: observational and categorical
In work beginning in the 1930s, Popper gave falsifiability a renewed emphasis as a criterion of empirical statements in science.

Popper noticed that two types of statements are of particular value to scientists.

The first are statements of observations, such as "this is a white swan". Logicians call these statements singular existential statements, since they assert the existence of some particular thing. They can be parsed in the form: There is an x that is a swan, and x is white.

The second are statements that categorize all instances of something, such as "all swans are white". Logicians call these statements universal. They are usually parsed in the form: For all x, if x is a swan, then x is white. Scientific laws are commonly supposed to be of this type. One difficult question in the methodology of science is: How does one move from observations to laws? How can one validly infer a universal statement from any number of existential statements?

Inductivist methodology supposed that one can somehow move from a series of singular existential statements to a universal statement. That is, that one can move from 'this is a white swan', 'that is a white swan', and so on, to a universal statement such as 'all swans are white'. This method is clearly deductively invalid, since it is always possible that there may be a non-white swan that has eluded observation


alex

[jjjnettie]

I can understand where some people get the idea that they've seen a UFO.

My UFO experience.
It's been mentioned before in other threads, but here it is again.
I was being dropped off at a friends house late one afternoon. My brother and I looked up at the clouds and all of a sudden they were alight with fire, then there was a roar that rocked me to my bones.
Dave and I just looked at each other and said, "This is it, they're here!"
A very emotional moment, fear, excitement, awe etc all at once.
30 seconds later, we both realised it was an F111 doing a very low dump and burn.

One of our Moderators, not naming names, had a UFO encounter too.
The story goes like this, correct me if I'm wrong Paul....
One night, at a party, a light was spotted in the night sky, flying off this way, then going that way. A few of the party goers were caught up in the mystery of it.
It ended up being a firefly caught in a spiders web, buzzing up and down trying to get free.

If the mystery hadn't been solved, here would be another group of people who believed that they'd seen a UFO.

[capella]

Hi Clarry, don't say no more, I understand, let's keep this between ourselves! the Proteas are aliens from another planet, I managed to work that out. Alien Prisoners from ROswell Taken to arEA 51.

Yeah I'm bonkers.

Steve...unbeliever.

[jungle11]

Oh my God!!!:eyepop:

If you do it this way:

Alien Prisoners from ROswell Captured and Taken to arEA - 51

Don't you see people, now it's a brand of anal probe....;)

[xelasnave]

Are you sure you guys are not aliens?
alex

[PeterM]

How about,

UFO = FLYING SAUCER/SPACESHIP & ALIENS, sorry but that's it, always everytime to those who must believe. If you tell them about Venus, or Sirius setting with every colour of the rainbow, about Iridium flares, space junk, etc etc most just turn off, it wasn't what they were hoping to hear. But give them the slightest hint (try it, it is a lot of fun) well I hadn't told anyone but....I saw something I just couldn't explain - you an amateur astronomer wow, then watch the discussion explode, give them an inch and... That is the problem with this thread and every discussion ever had anywhere about UFOs. Discussion about intelligent life in the universe is not the same as need to know about UFOs and there are two threads going on in one here and one of them belongs on another chat group somewhere else altogether. Yes at public field nights the question is raised, but far, far less than some might think. People are there to see the wonders of the their universe and mostly ask intelligent questions about it. If I have been asked have I ever seen a UFO or do I believe in UFOs a dozen times in many years of showing thousands the night sky I would be surprised.
PeterM

[Karls48]

I don’t really understand why almost everyone contributing to this tread has to associate UFO’s with the aliens. I have seen UFO on serval occasions and all what I have to say about it is that it was – well Unidentified Flying Object. On all occasions (except two observations on two consecutive nights) it looked and behaved differently. No I’m not lucky nor I have special gift to see those things. I just spend lot of time in my younger days in outdoors – prospecting, hunting fishing and sailing. Those activities and being alone in the sticks with only the dog for company makes you more aware of your surroundings. When you realise that the sound of your own heartbeat is distracting because it masks to some extend your perception of the sounds around you - you will understand what I’m talking about. There may be UFO flying over your head right now. But you are too preoccupied with your everyday problems and your senses are overloaded with ambient noise of your surroundings that you may not notice subtle change in your surroundings that makes you to look up and notice something unusual.
From my observations and from one experiment I have conducted with UFO I believe that UFO is some kind of metrological phenomena. For all what it may be worth - rifle projectiles seems to pass thru it without connecting with solid substance. Large shock wave seems to disperse it (I had let go off stick of gelignite when I have seen UFO in Northern Queensland – that produced quite large bang and associated shock wave).
Although some people may think that there is basically nothing new to discover about our planet, here are just few examples of unexplained phenomena’s,
The existence of Sprites, Blue Jets and Elves was not confirmed until about fifteen years ago.
Existence of the Ball Lightning is still controversial and has not been proved or disproved. Although I have never seen Ball Lightning I have seen the damage done by alleged Ball lightning.
Min Min light. I have seen that and I find it interesting that these phenomena narrated in Aboriginal history is very similar to folklore of many European countries. It would be interesting to hear from someone in USA if the American Indians had similar folklore.
In the end I have to admit that it is not possible completely reject possibility that some of UFO sightings may have been of alien spacecraft. But my experience with UFO indicates that it is extremely unlikely.

[Dog Star]

Um..Elves?

[xelasnave]

I know what you must be thinking but here is a link with a photo (artist impression) showing an elve in the system of things:).


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051004085350.htm



These are not explained by current science...I can of course explain them:eyepop:;) ...and I have (but I refer to them as sprites in text) in my theory of everything (which is not a theory but ideas) and various push gravity related threads around the place:)...

they are visual evidence of the universal flow of particles I suggest as requiste to explain how gravity works and how one can relate gravity to electricity.... now you probably think I am crazy but remember you heard it from me first:P.

The elve is where the flow first runs into resistence with our planet..it radiates outwards and apparently follows the curve of the atmosphere.

Below it manefest as a sprite..........

Anyways have a long long long look at the artist impression and look into them they offer the most opportunity to understand how gravity and electricity relate to each other.... all of this is of course is my most most humble and unsupported mathmatically...opinion:).

There is little in the way of photos but enough to see they are certainly very real and the latest research seems to indicate that they may be generating exotic rays and that is very exciting...

alex:):):)

[Dog Star]

Thanks muchly for the link Alex.
I'm always deeply appreciative toward anyone who can assist me in peeling back the extensive layers of my ignorance.:thumbsup:
It's been suggested that saying "I don't know" is the beginning of wisdom. Which in theory makes me the wisest man on the planet.:rofl:
Thanks again.

[xelasnave]

Well thank you Phil.
So many folk wish to appear "cool" so they nod as if they know but it is indeed a wise man who understands there is always more to know and that if he is really working at things new things will present each day...

They certainly made me happy because they offerred possible visual evidence of the situation I had foreseen... and man that was so good.

This is a reasonable overview ....

http://geology.about.com/od/sprites/a/sprites.htm

[PeterM]

So here is aquick test. Innocently ask anyone you know (or don't know) from a 10 year old to grandad to work colleagues (without any egging on) what they think a UFO is (I have done this many times) if Flying Saucer/Spaceship and Alien are not the most common and almost always the answers then I will be more than surprised. And if the answer is "oh it's atmosheric phenomena that we can't explain" then I will fall off my chair. UFO is a leading "word" it conjures up exactly as I have said. If we could replace it with "have you ever seen something you couldn't explain while looking at the sky" I would accept that (the must believers simply won't let this happen -it is also a money making industry) You see mostly the must believers are not interested in an explanation and when one is given they quickly look for the next sighting. I am off to photograph the fairies that live at the bottom of my garden, I know they are there somewhere, there's proof of them, I saw a pic of them on the internet, and don't try convince me otherwise. Might even leave my shoes out tonight for the elves, and set a trap for Santa Clause while I am at it.
PeterM

[jungle11]

If all this turns out in the end to be weather phenomenon, I'll be more than happy to accept that. One less thing to wonder about - and proberly the only chance of an answer on this subject in my lifetime.

Yes it is wrong to blindly accept something regardless of a lack of knowledge and verifyable evidence. So I don't side with the 'true believers'

I think there's quite a few skeptics out there who are doing exactly the same thing.

cheers:)

[jungle11]

I might add an experience here i forgot about.

When I was in primary school, a few mornings when dad and i, or mum and i, drove over a hill on the way into town we would see this bright red line about 1km down the highway extending at a 45* angle across the road. At first we thought it to be a crane, but as we approached it would move off to one side and dissapear. Stumped us for a while but as the year went on we didn't see it anymore. Proberly because the sun was rising at a different time.
Obviously it was a trick of the light - and a very good one - the red 'bar' really looked solid from a distance, nice definable lines, perfectly straight.
That is why I'm not a true believer, I think.

[ngcles]

Hi Peter M & All,

Agree 100% with your last post Peter where you wrote among other things:

" ... And if the answer is "oh it's atmosheric phenomena that we can't explain" then I will fall off my chair. UFO is a leading "word" it conjures up exactly as I have said. If we could replace it with "have you ever seen something you couldn't explain while looking at the sky" I would accept that (the must believers simply won't let this happen -it is also a money making industry) ..."

Could hardly have put it better.

Yep, the likes of Erich von Daniken, Zecharia Sitchin & Nancy Leider (the Nibiru silliness) et al have made a whole heap of cash out of it and equally have a hellava lot to answer for in "mystifying" the whole subject.

That is precisely why in the last paragraph of my first post (#67 on 3rd page) in this thread I wrote:

"The one other problem I have with the whole subject is this: They should not be called "UFOs". We have no proof on a vast number of occasions they are reported that they are "objects" nor that they are "flying". Instead, they should be called "Unidentified Ariel Sightings" or "UAS"."

If they were referred to as a "UAS" or some-such similar title, it would take a lot of the heat and controversy out of the whole thing and hopefully lessen the possibility of people making the leap-of-faith that it is LGM in a saucer every time something is seen that does not appear to have a readily apparent explaination.


Best

Les D

[Ric]

I've still yet to see a UFO as well, one way or another I'll keep an open mind on this subject.

One thing I always do when observing is have a camera at the ready with the 300mm telephoto attached.

Just in case

[RB]

LOL Ric, what if the UFO hovers just above you? :lol:

[xelasnave]

Visiting aliens must not only be very advanced but very tidy... they never leave any rubbish.

alex

[PeterM]

You are a witty man Alex and I just love your posts, this site would not be half what it is without you, sincerely!
It's bizzare really, there's no rubbish 'cause there was no rubbish, but why am I and others always having to clean up after "them"
PeterM

[xelasnave]

Thank you sincerely Peter.
It is easy to be witty just stand back and look at us humans and dont take things too serious is my game.
Still I think we should give the same respect to believers in UFO's as we do folk who believe in God or in dark matter as I feel there is a commonality shared by them all.... not one shread of proof between all of them...but all have the right to an opinion so long as they can accept others are entitled to a more rational view.... I respect faith not stupidity however.

alex

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Alex wrote:

"Still I think we should give the same respect to believers in UFO's as we do folk who believe in God or in dark matter as I feel there is a commonality shared by them all.... not one shread of proof between all of them...but all have the right to an opinion so long as they can accept others are entitled to a more rational view.... I respect faith not stupidity however."

Ditto -- agree 100% :thumbsup:

Peter M wrote:

"You are a witty man Alex and I just love your posts, this site would not be half what it is without you, sincerely!"

Double ditto!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Best,

Les D

P.S A less than novel-length post plus emoticons ... I must be starting to lose it completely!

[avandonk]

Everybody is entitled to their own delusions. Just don't expect me to even consider them as anywhere near rational. I have not bothered to read any previous posts that UFO's in the sense that they are alien are real, as they will be the usual pap.

Concrete physical evidence is what is needed. None so far?

Keep looking!

Sorry to be such a pain, but that is how this subject makes me feel.

Bert

[capella]

Spot on Bert, as I have said in a recent post, how anybody in this day and age can believe in alien ufos is beyond my comprehension. Life in the universe maybe, invaders from space... not a chance.

Steve.

[xelasnave]

Well would we know if anyone is visiting.

I have been to the pub...man what an experience.

Near had a fist fight literally within the first two minutes of arrival...the dam fools...he must have thought I was going to hit him as I walked back to him after a smart arrrrrrz remark because he covered his face and two bystanders ran to stand before me and him... I just dont want a ticket in the meat tray and I dont like chewing my cabage twice so listen to what I say I wont say it again.....anyways this other idiot was ranting at me..folks from the city etc. as if I had just arrived in town... I have been in the area twelve years and he thinks because he has not seen me before that I never existed... and so I thought well if an alien chouse to live quietly on 200 acres and keep to himself and never go to the pub as far as everyone would be concerned that alien would not exist....

Why do these idiots seek me out.
I even bought a red wine to see if he had any more to say ...they dont like wine drinkers as they think they are fagots... no one was game to say a thing.

Gee it is good to be back with my dogs.
The crazy woman rang and abused me for not taking her calls... well why call you hate me remember.

So everything fine here. I hope so.

AND as usual Bert you are on the money one would think given the many visits and all the anal probing we should have a pile of credible evidence and of course there is none.

AND thank you Les that is very kind of you.

I try to be myself and be honest in the sharing of what is going thru my head... and I recognise a few of my ideas may amuse some and annoy others but hopefully folk can respect my honesty.

Sorry to rattle on but I found tonight extremely distressing I am not a bash artist but I wont back down from a fool either and wont stand someone making a smart arrrrzzzz remark as I walk away... simple...but I bet he never does it again.

alex

[Glenhuon]

Have'nt been following this post really, but heard a cracker tonight on a Star Stuff podcast. Some guy saying the Hadron Collider would cause a global disaster and the aliens from Nibiru were just waiting for when we were weakened and would come in and take over. It was a short clip and finished quickly, I think it was when the nice men in the white coats took him away :rofl:

Bill

[Ric]

In that case it will be another one of those classic blurred photo's that we always see.:lol:

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:

:camera::ship1:

[RB]

:lol:

[jungle11]

Hey Elmer (if you're still about that is) I thought I'd add this.

If you want to study what is a contravercial subject like UFOs or UAS, it would be best to make sure you study some of the skeptics web sites as well. Everyone here knows i keep an open mind, but i do realise most ufo site (they almost always assume any sighting must be aliens) draw alot of conclusions from minimal evidence. A skeptic website (many of which are run by REAL scientists) can point out the obvious mistakes - and outright lies - of a believer's site. In the end it will give you a more accurate account of the phenomenon, whatever it may or may not be.
Choice is yours

Cheers

[Jen]

Nicely said Greg :thumbsup::thumbsup: but i think we already scared him away from this thread :lol::lol::lol:

[jungle11]

Agreed!:lol:
To tell the truth, I'm pretty scared to write anything here myself!

[ghsmith45]

If there's anything true in UFO's with humanoid creatures coming out of spaceships I guess it would be that they are genuine human beings from the future who have mastered time travel and are checking on their primitive ancestors.
Geoff

[Clarry]

With respect Geoff, exactly what is it about supposed UFO sightings that makes you think they are time travelers? I don't mean to be confrontational, but I just wonder why people leap to such far fetched assumptions to explain the unexplained.

[jungle11]

He only said if mate - :shrug:

[jungle11]

Thinking on the assumption that certain stories are true, and aliens in question are bipedal, almost identical to us I can think of three things.

1) It is anthromorphism, the way God is referred to as He or Him, or Jesus portrayed as a caucasian - just humans imposing their pre-conceptions on an idea.
2) Geoff's idea - that it is us from the future - perhaps after generations of genetic engineering. Would explain why they don't ever want to make contact, why they don't mind being seen on occasion (because they know from experience that the idea is laughable in the present) Hey maybe it could even explain drunken spaceships - a wriggle here n there seems much more unbelievable!:lol::lol:
3) Perhaps evolution, of which we have only Earth as a guide, often follows similar paths - producing successfull designs.

Whats wrong with pondering? Good for a laugh - as long as you don't take it seriously. Personally, I wouldn't expect aliens to look anything like us (there we go - another assumption). Just because someone ponders these things doesn't mean they are loco - or that they will believe everything that they hear - they are only doing what humans enjoy doing. Wondering.

cheers

[AstralTraveller]

You call us a successful design?:lol: Strewth mate! Wait till your my age and suffer the aches and pains I have. :eyepop: If we are so well designed why do we have a structure, the spine, which was originally a bridge but is now a column? :screwy: It's a real pain in the neck ... lower back and thorax. To me that single trait shows that evolution does not necessarily produce an optimal design AND disproves intelligent design. And don't even start me on why males have sensitive reproductive organs on the outside. We all know where that's a pain.:doh:

[jungle11]

oops:lol:

[ghsmith45]

Well first of all it's a ridiculous suggestion on my part which I don't really believe. However, it seems to me that many of the reported "aliens" are tall, blond and handsome versions of us. The chances of evolution producing such an item on another planet are so small as to be discounted. Hence they really must be related to us in some way and since their techniques are so advanced it points to time travellers. On the other hand, if you believe in god, then perhaps he made us and the aliens in his own image--hence the similarity. But that's another can of worms to open ....

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:
now ive got that Sneaky Sound System's song U.F.O. in my head :rofl:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oXDJN9sqgP4

[ngcles]

Hi All,

A Reprot in the Sydney Daily Telegraph of a Google Earth image of a "UFO" (their word -- not mine) over Miller's Point, Sydney. In fact, if you look at the pic, Sydney Observatory is just off the image at right (at the top of Windmill Hill) about 300m away from where the image was taken

The report in "The Tele" is here:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24785075-5001021,00.html

Which only shows the mainstream media's propensity to "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". It is very, very obviously an imaging artefact and shows the power of the popular media to potentially manipulate opinion.

Now, just to show I can be objective about these things, in the same article there is a link to another article in the UK Sun newspaper which is here:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/ufos/article1836403.ece

And relates to footage shot of several "UFO's" (their word again -- not mine) in Istanbul. The article is interesting reading and raises several points for discussion. There are a number of apparently unsubstantiated claims based at least on the video clips by both the person who shot the video, from the Sirius Space Science Research Centre and within the article apparently by the writer.

These (as I see 'em) are some interesting points about the story:

(1) "THIS astonishing video footage is claimed to be the "most important images of a UFO ever filmed" – and is said to even depict ALIENS."

Not supported on the images at all.

(2) The 42-year-old and a number of residents claim the UFOs were spotted over a four month period between May and September near the compound in Istanbul.

Interesting that it is called a "compound" what sort of "compound". The word in this context more often than not is used next to "military". Is it a military compound? We don't know. If it is, then there may well be a rational explaination, but they don't say one way or the other.

(3) "International UFO researcher Haktan Akdogan said: "In this amazing video footage, physical forms of UFOs and their metallic structures are clearly noticeable."

The video on the site does not conclusively support this by any means. Can other footage that is not part of the clip? Dunno. No evidence at all that it is "metallic".

(4) The clips are a compilation of video shot on several nights over several months. There are subtitles in English of what is said presumably in Turkish. Regarding the one on 3rd June, one of the speakers says in talking of its location in the sky "yes, at the corner of this bright star" (emphasis added)

Close to a bright star? Note the time of morning. Is this possibly some sort of an out of focus artefact from imaging Venus or Jupiter that is just out of frame?

(5) The maker of the movie says "I was very excited when I saw them and I want the world to know that UFOs do exist”.

An interesting statement. An inference is possibly supported that this person was already a "believer" before the videos were made??

(6) "What is more important is that in the close-up of some footages of the objects, entities in them can be distinctly made out."

No support at all for this in the video I saw.

If you go here (A UFO site) you will see longer video of the same stuff (about 17 mins):

http://www.ufodata.co.uk/index1.htm

On many occasions, you will see the Moon not far out of shot or visible in a wider angle. I have used a planetarium programme to get a simulated sky for the time, location etc and looked in the area around the moon. When you check the phase of the Moon in the video against the embedded date and the planetarium program, occasionally they don't add up.

On the video purporting to be shot on 8 June, the video shows a gibbous moon when in fact on that date it was a 23% waxing crescent and was not above the horizon at 2.30am.

On the 23 May 2008 the Moon phase is approximately correct and they film a "dot" moving near the moon. Follow the motion of the dot relative to the Moon and it is clearly an internal reflection of the moon within the optics.

On 27 May it is again near the Moon in the video and the phase appears to be correct. Curiously it sems to be in the same position relative to the Moon as shown on 23 May.

On 6 and 8 June there is no Moon in the shot -- no conclusions. On the other shots, where there are some lights shown, many of these are very close to the horizon which appears to be the sea.

I also note that most of the shots appear to be at pretty extreme zoom factors and the "object" seems to change proportions (length -v- breadth) a bit when zooming.

I think nearly all of the "close-ups" are most likely a reflection or an optical artefact within the camera or possibly a reflection off something outside the camera of some sort. Take a look at the video by all means

The video is interesting but is it as touted "most important images of a UFO ever filmed"?

Is that the best they can come up with?

What do you think?


Best,

Les D

[jungle11]

The first example is obviously an artefact - you're definately right about the media's ability to umm....crap on!:lol:

The second...there's some big calls there too - I watched that footage maybe 2 months ago, no entities (and at the apparent distance it was filmed from how could you possibly make out shapes, at times it sort of appeared metalic but 'sort of' doesn't imply good evidence. Could well have been faked - especially with the moon phases not always matching up.

I guess if the media can drum up a sensation, they will sell more mags - same with any subject really

[thunderchildobs]

Here's proof that we are in the middle of an inter-galatic war.

Strange 1/2 human 1/2 animals mutants invaded the earth during the time of the Egyptians.

These were defeated by the "Gods" of Olympus with their flying chariots during the time of the Greeks.

In turn they were beaten by Angels, Gargoyles and dragons during the dark ages.

Finally the "Greys" are now in charge of the earth with their spaceships.

What is also scarry, is that the Alien technology has shown significance improvements.

Now back to the Stargate DVDs. :)

[jungle11]

nope - this thread keeps coming back, doesn't it. ...oh well...

[GrampianStars]

;) The Yanks are coming
with their stealth fighters (aka UFO's) :whistle:
there after your women, wife, girlfriends, daughters :eyepop:
oh! and do some anal probing on your arse :screwy:

[ngcles]

Hi Grampianstars & All,

Grampianstars wrote:

"oh! and do some .... probing on your ...."

Apart from "on your ....," :whistle: where else would they do that particular sort of probing? :shrug:

The second part of the phrase is a little ... redundant? Isn't it? ;)


Best,

Les D

[Jen]

:lol::lol: hey there Les sounds like you done some great homework on this with the moon phases nice work you should send that in to the press :thumbsup: hahahaha

[TrevorW]

ET phone home

[jungle11]

It would apear Elmer posted his original question on another site. I proberly shouldn't say where but YIKES!!!
The answers he's getting there are um...not the answers he's getting here. They are showing him 'proof' as i write this.
At least he came to this site and got some other opinions

[AstralTraveller]

Aw come on. We'd all like some fun. ;)

[ngcles]

Hi Dave,



Yep, lots of fun but you'll also need some (plenty of) stematil on hand.

Not only does Science go completely out the window, logic and common-sense follow closely on it's heels. The most common themes are that science is nothing more than a bunch of theories no-one can prove, we are all going to die in 2012 when Nibiru arrives and that the government are monitoring everthing on the site and as soon as you say something controversial, your dial-up connection drops out because they are intercepting and spying on your posts. If you haven't been abducted and probed you are in a small minority there.

Question everything they say -- including the most solidly established facts we take for granted in living our lives. I saw a quick flash somewhere that even the 2nd law of thermodynamics was nonsense.

[Edit] The above par is not clear, what I meant to say is that they question anything --even the most solidly established facts we take for granted in living everday. [end edit]

Hmmm ...

http://2012-comet.com/phpbb/

I think Burley said somewhere that nature abhorrs a vacuum. Well, not there seemingly -- they even appear to be multiplying.

Best,

Les D

[PeterM]

I agree with 3 words you have written as for the rest... I will agree to disagree
Technology will improve..........
After post edit - Where did that post go that I was replying to?
PeterM

[jungle11]

Hey Les - you're onto something - there was a post between Astraltravaler and yours - then it's disapeared. Bloody ASIO...:lol:

[PeterM]

Hey Greg, I am glad you saw that post as well as it now looks like I am replying to Les and I wasn't, there was definitely another post in between that has now disappeared. Whoever he was he was talking about UFOs not being aliens, poltergeists, ghosts etc and was saying science couldn't explain things that disappeared - there were other explanations, he maybe right, I just pressed the half flush on the washing machine in the little room in our new house and all my clothes disappeared! I am heading down the observatory now because whoever he was he has also made the clouds disappear.
PeterM

[stevejack]

Haha sorry guys it was me - I was just saying that there is a big jump between UFOs and aliens - people sometimes jump to strange conclusions when something unexplained happens (dead people when household objects move, little green men when UFOs appear) and that just because we don't all agree on the source of the unidentified object (ie a UFO) it doesn't give us licence to deny evidence without investigation.

A scientist who believes (or is certian!) that aliens don't exist and therefore claims that UFOs don't exist (ie all UFOs can be explained as being objects/devices that we ALREADY know about) is like a christian claiming that because he doesn't believe in the Koran that Mecca doesn't exist.

We can't afford to let our worldview blind us from analysing evidence, when it's sufficient, rationally.
What are the objects appearing on radar?
What are pilots seeing?
Just because we know what its not, doesn't mean we know what it is. Ignorace is agony.

Do I beleive in ghosts? no. Do I believe aliens are visiting us? Not likely. I belive in research and analysis and am dismayed when verbal or physical evidence is corrupted by shame.

Post was deleted by me (before I saw your reply) because it was my opinions only and didn't really contribute to the community (ie furthering someone's knowledge on the subject). But for sake of clarity, there it is.

Sorry for the confusion.

[jungle11]

Stevejack, I think you sum up why I remain open minded on the subject. A majority of people choose to know if something is or isn't happening. I'm happy to assume us humans aren't the holders of all knowledge yet. Lots of current knowledge ie. the earth as a sphere, was knocked not on the basis of it's evidence - but because it seemed highly unlikely. For all I know the UFO thing could just be another of these cases. I think the best way to be objective on some things is to admit you don't know when theres no proof either way.
Evidence seems to suggest something is happening and I'm not into calling millons of observers liars if i can't prove this is the case. (apart from the many who undoubtedely are lying.) Bugger - im rambling.

Here's my new years resolution. Greg will no longer post on this thread.


Oh, Peter, my socks have a habit of disapearing in the washing