gregbradley
25-11-2008, 07:23 PM
I thought I would continue the theme on cameras I have had.
I have/had the following astro cameras:
1. Nikon D70 modified by myself with clear glass.
2. Canon 20D modified by myself with UV/IR filter.
3. SBig ST2000 with KAI2001 chip.
4. SBig STL11000CM class 1 one shot colour camera
5. SBig STL11000M class 2 mono camera.
6. Apogee U16M camera.
7. SBig ST402ME guide camera
8. Starfish cooled guide camera (also planetary camera).
9. FLI Microline 8300 camera.
1. Nikon D70.
Nice intro. Sensitive, nice colour, great supplied software, amp noise a bit harsh over 90 seconds, ISO only to 1600, noise reduction handy, no true RAW files (smoothing applied by firmware), 6mp.A bit noisy.
Overall I liked it and used it for quite a while. Nice cheap and workable infrared remote too.
2. Canon 20D.
A quantum leap over the Nikon. Really low noise, no amp glow, very sensitive, 8mp, ISO to 3200, lousy supplied software. Worked well in Images Plus.
3. SBig ST2000:
Very noisy, at first it was confusing and put me off from using it for a while. I got to understand it and it is quite a leap in understanding from a DSLR. Tended to frost too easily and had to bake the desiccant too often - annoying. Colour LRGB images are a bit duanting at first and difficult to get good colour. CCDstack made life a lot easier as the supplied CCDops is ancient history software and not user friendly. CCDsoft is also pretty pathetic for image processing but good for controlling the camera and capturing images.
If I used one of these again I'd get Astrodon filters as that would also make it a lot easier to use.
Once I got the hang of it though my images leapt up in quality and I still have a couple from that period that I think are among my best.
Pros: more flexible and sensitive than a DSLR and the internal self guiding is fantastic.
Cons: A lot more work to understand all that new complexity but worth the effort. More work than using a DSLR and more expensive and needs CCDstack and Astrodon filters to be used easily and well.
4. STL11000CM class one one shot colour:
Oooh, an STL, looovvellyy (lovely). beautiful to look at all selfcontained wonderful. A marvellous camera.
easy to use, no problems with filters (dust, refocusing every filter, harder to autoguide through, every shot counts whereas mono you need
LRGB to make a decent image and clouds etc can thwart you more easily).
I loved it and that huge chip and terrific colour with the filter wheel inside, the self guiding inside - so compact and neat.
Downside - noisy in dim areas of images. Dim objects showed a lot of colour noise. Less flexible when doing narrowband.
Also annoying lines in images from a noisy hot pixel that would often show through in images despite darks and flats and a class 1 chip.
5. STL11000M mono with Astrodon filters. Astrodons made life a lot easier with colour imaging. The mono is less noisy and more sensitive but not as much as often reported. Fantastic camera, loved it. Sbig shows its age now with the camera not having an internal buffer so the driver is in the computer not the camera. So if you fails in its connection (oops a fairly common event!) then the annoying problem of having to power down and repower to get it to reboot. Also no on/off switch but then none of these cameras except DSLRs have an on/off swtich.
Cooling is superb and fast and accurate and better than the 40C below ambient.
9 out of 10 for this baby.
6. Apogee U16M:
Huge chip, more sophisticated than an STL, way less noise (practically don't need darks but flats more important as the chip is so huge), massive FOV,
way more sensitive than the STL11 (40%??), no glass cover slip on the chip so increased sensitivity and less dispersal/reflections on bright stars.
CCD chamber filled with Argon so no frosting or baking the desiccant - SBig are you taking note? Baking desiccant plugs in your oven - are they serious?? Faster download times.
Internal buffer so camera stays operating if disconnected from the computer, slow cooldown time is the main drawback - 45 minutes to go from say 15C to -20C. Also doesn't do 40 below ambient more like 37 below, my STL did 43 below. Also takes a while to settle down to being on a selected temp. Apogee is working on a software option for a more rapid cooldown. It really means you start the camera first before you do other setup and you do it early. Not handy if you are in a hurry or arrived at a dark site late.
Nice looking, no internal self guiding like almost every other camera besides SBig which is a huge plus for SBig. Requires an separate filter wheel which is a another USB cable and power lead. Doesn't come with a case. Supplied software obviously produced by an employee trying to wreck the company it is that pathetic. Fabulous customer service.
Also only current camera with this chip with a reflection baffle for the camera which significantly reduces reflections from filters and the inevitable flattener requried to handle such a huge chip. Supplied free of charge after purchase which was nice.
The camera is competively priced at about US$3,500 cheaper than its main rival the FLI Proline, also several pounds lighter. The Apogee filter wheel is the best on the market and incredibly well engineered. Far superior to the very good FLI filter wheel. The Proline seems stable now although when I was making a choice it had a number of unresolved issues.
Its been around now for a couple of years and it is taking large bites out of SBig's market share which they won't get back probably. SBig has fallen behind as FLI has had its Proline out for something like a year and a half now.
I love this camera and all the people on the Apogee site love it too. Only complaint I have heard about it is the slow cooldown which annoys a lot of owners. They forgive it because it is so good in every other way.
Chose filters carefully for these new large chip cameras. Astrodons?? I don't think so. Even the new Gen 11 filters can cause serious reflection problems as I have seen images sent to me from a dissatisfied owner. Perhaps that was with a particular scope and is an isolated situation. Buyer beware rules in this boutique market so I am usually suspicious.
I use Astrodon Narrowband with it and these are great. I use Baader and Astronomik and I think I like the Astronomiks the best. But despite what I said about the Astrodon's I think I will get some at some point as Astrodon's are really the bee's knees for accurate colour combine.
9 out of 10 for this baby and it will be my workhorse for some time to come. A distinct step up from the STL but I suspect the SBig STX will be a very enticing camera with its improved cooling and improved selfguiding once its comes out next year.
These cameras are big bucks territory so they require considerable care in deciding the pros and cons.
Apogee Vs SBig
Apogee U16Mpros:
internal buffer and stays operating if disconnected from computer
faster downloads,
no cover slip
lifetime guarantee on the CCD chamber
argon gas in chamber
frost free and no baking of desiccant plugs (what a crude solution that is)
good looking
"lightweight" (its still heavy)
huge FOV
very very sensitive
extremely low noise (-10 is way cleaner than an STL 11 at -35)
currently cheapest 16803 chipped astrocamera
reliable proven and stable Alta camera base that is free of bugs
anti reflection baffle
has ghost image solution fitted
low noise electronics
Cooldown time excessive (45 minutes) and if you lose power it warms up and takes 45 minutes again to reach target
temps of -20 or -25C) a more rapid cooldown software fix is planned but there yet.
Requires a separate filter wheel and large expensive filters.
no case
software poor
no supplied operating software.
Sbig STL pros;
Self guiding self guiding self guiding (what a brilliant invention)
nice looking STL
fully contained
excellent cooling
light
proven camera with some of the absolute best images around done on them
noisy but easily handled needs to run cooler (ideal at -35C)
50mm round filters are cheaper
only holds 5 filters (where do you put your narrowbands?)
lots of accessories available
comes with supplied software and good manual
supplied installation software actually works out of the box without a million Yahoo Group questions being asked although not on Vista boo hoo.
comes with a great case.
cons:
completely relies on the computer if the connection fails ( happens more often than you would think) you need to power down and power up again - very annoying and you lose your cooling (not good at 3am!)
slowish downloads
starting to show its age now, its noisy, less sensitive, less FOV. Its slightly dated but a fantastic camera. No longer cutting edge.
9. SBig ST402ME as a guide camera
Pros:
Fabulous as a guide camera, near instant cooling, good sensitivity, good FOV a beauty.
Cons:
The shutter makes a relaly annoying clicking sound as it hits a pin before it operates. Click click click ( I use 1 second guide exposures - get the idea? nice serene rural dark site - noone around for mile, perfect dark skies, gorgeous stars - click click click!!).
I put a bit of tape on that pin and it stopped it for a while but its started up again although not as loud.
A bit heavy and large as a guide camera but useable.
Screw in power plug is a bit cheap and nasty and a slightly unreliable connection (refer to above to what happens if you lose power!!)
10. Starfish cooled guide and planetary camera:
1.3mp CMOS chip. Sensitive, super fast downloads (it has an internal buffer), will guide as fast as .26 second exposure times although a slight lag because its 1.3mp. USB 2 only which is a drag if you try to use it on an older computer (it won't work). Mine would freeze sometimes unexpectedly. I believe this was fixed with a later driver but it wouldn't load into a Vista computer. It does on XP.
Electronic shutter so no noise. It looks great too with a lovely red anodised curved lightweight body. Less noisy than its same chipped popular competitor the Qhy or Orion.
11. FLI Microline 8300:
Only just got it, looks good, cooling 55C below ambient (thats amazing), solidly and well built, compact, fast downloads.
I couldn't get it to work with the supplied software on a Vista computer but that means nothing as none of them have!! (thanks Microsoft!).
Next dark site trip with good skies I'll use this one.
Well that is my experience with cameras so far.
Greg.
I have/had the following astro cameras:
1. Nikon D70 modified by myself with clear glass.
2. Canon 20D modified by myself with UV/IR filter.
3. SBig ST2000 with KAI2001 chip.
4. SBig STL11000CM class 1 one shot colour camera
5. SBig STL11000M class 2 mono camera.
6. Apogee U16M camera.
7. SBig ST402ME guide camera
8. Starfish cooled guide camera (also planetary camera).
9. FLI Microline 8300 camera.
1. Nikon D70.
Nice intro. Sensitive, nice colour, great supplied software, amp noise a bit harsh over 90 seconds, ISO only to 1600, noise reduction handy, no true RAW files (smoothing applied by firmware), 6mp.A bit noisy.
Overall I liked it and used it for quite a while. Nice cheap and workable infrared remote too.
2. Canon 20D.
A quantum leap over the Nikon. Really low noise, no amp glow, very sensitive, 8mp, ISO to 3200, lousy supplied software. Worked well in Images Plus.
3. SBig ST2000:
Very noisy, at first it was confusing and put me off from using it for a while. I got to understand it and it is quite a leap in understanding from a DSLR. Tended to frost too easily and had to bake the desiccant too often - annoying. Colour LRGB images are a bit duanting at first and difficult to get good colour. CCDstack made life a lot easier as the supplied CCDops is ancient history software and not user friendly. CCDsoft is also pretty pathetic for image processing but good for controlling the camera and capturing images.
If I used one of these again I'd get Astrodon filters as that would also make it a lot easier to use.
Once I got the hang of it though my images leapt up in quality and I still have a couple from that period that I think are among my best.
Pros: more flexible and sensitive than a DSLR and the internal self guiding is fantastic.
Cons: A lot more work to understand all that new complexity but worth the effort. More work than using a DSLR and more expensive and needs CCDstack and Astrodon filters to be used easily and well.
4. STL11000CM class one one shot colour:
Oooh, an STL, looovvellyy (lovely). beautiful to look at all selfcontained wonderful. A marvellous camera.
easy to use, no problems with filters (dust, refocusing every filter, harder to autoguide through, every shot counts whereas mono you need
LRGB to make a decent image and clouds etc can thwart you more easily).
I loved it and that huge chip and terrific colour with the filter wheel inside, the self guiding inside - so compact and neat.
Downside - noisy in dim areas of images. Dim objects showed a lot of colour noise. Less flexible when doing narrowband.
Also annoying lines in images from a noisy hot pixel that would often show through in images despite darks and flats and a class 1 chip.
5. STL11000M mono with Astrodon filters. Astrodons made life a lot easier with colour imaging. The mono is less noisy and more sensitive but not as much as often reported. Fantastic camera, loved it. Sbig shows its age now with the camera not having an internal buffer so the driver is in the computer not the camera. So if you fails in its connection (oops a fairly common event!) then the annoying problem of having to power down and repower to get it to reboot. Also no on/off switch but then none of these cameras except DSLRs have an on/off swtich.
Cooling is superb and fast and accurate and better than the 40C below ambient.
9 out of 10 for this baby.
6. Apogee U16M:
Huge chip, more sophisticated than an STL, way less noise (practically don't need darks but flats more important as the chip is so huge), massive FOV,
way more sensitive than the STL11 (40%??), no glass cover slip on the chip so increased sensitivity and less dispersal/reflections on bright stars.
CCD chamber filled with Argon so no frosting or baking the desiccant - SBig are you taking note? Baking desiccant plugs in your oven - are they serious?? Faster download times.
Internal buffer so camera stays operating if disconnected from the computer, slow cooldown time is the main drawback - 45 minutes to go from say 15C to -20C. Also doesn't do 40 below ambient more like 37 below, my STL did 43 below. Also takes a while to settle down to being on a selected temp. Apogee is working on a software option for a more rapid cooldown. It really means you start the camera first before you do other setup and you do it early. Not handy if you are in a hurry or arrived at a dark site late.
Nice looking, no internal self guiding like almost every other camera besides SBig which is a huge plus for SBig. Requires an separate filter wheel which is a another USB cable and power lead. Doesn't come with a case. Supplied software obviously produced by an employee trying to wreck the company it is that pathetic. Fabulous customer service.
Also only current camera with this chip with a reflection baffle for the camera which significantly reduces reflections from filters and the inevitable flattener requried to handle such a huge chip. Supplied free of charge after purchase which was nice.
The camera is competively priced at about US$3,500 cheaper than its main rival the FLI Proline, also several pounds lighter. The Apogee filter wheel is the best on the market and incredibly well engineered. Far superior to the very good FLI filter wheel. The Proline seems stable now although when I was making a choice it had a number of unresolved issues.
Its been around now for a couple of years and it is taking large bites out of SBig's market share which they won't get back probably. SBig has fallen behind as FLI has had its Proline out for something like a year and a half now.
I love this camera and all the people on the Apogee site love it too. Only complaint I have heard about it is the slow cooldown which annoys a lot of owners. They forgive it because it is so good in every other way.
Chose filters carefully for these new large chip cameras. Astrodons?? I don't think so. Even the new Gen 11 filters can cause serious reflection problems as I have seen images sent to me from a dissatisfied owner. Perhaps that was with a particular scope and is an isolated situation. Buyer beware rules in this boutique market so I am usually suspicious.
I use Astrodon Narrowband with it and these are great. I use Baader and Astronomik and I think I like the Astronomiks the best. But despite what I said about the Astrodon's I think I will get some at some point as Astrodon's are really the bee's knees for accurate colour combine.
9 out of 10 for this baby and it will be my workhorse for some time to come. A distinct step up from the STL but I suspect the SBig STX will be a very enticing camera with its improved cooling and improved selfguiding once its comes out next year.
These cameras are big bucks territory so they require considerable care in deciding the pros and cons.
Apogee Vs SBig
Apogee U16Mpros:
internal buffer and stays operating if disconnected from computer
faster downloads,
no cover slip
lifetime guarantee on the CCD chamber
argon gas in chamber
frost free and no baking of desiccant plugs (what a crude solution that is)
good looking
"lightweight" (its still heavy)
huge FOV
very very sensitive
extremely low noise (-10 is way cleaner than an STL 11 at -35)
currently cheapest 16803 chipped astrocamera
reliable proven and stable Alta camera base that is free of bugs
anti reflection baffle
has ghost image solution fitted
low noise electronics
Cooldown time excessive (45 minutes) and if you lose power it warms up and takes 45 minutes again to reach target
temps of -20 or -25C) a more rapid cooldown software fix is planned but there yet.
Requires a separate filter wheel and large expensive filters.
no case
software poor
no supplied operating software.
Sbig STL pros;
Self guiding self guiding self guiding (what a brilliant invention)
nice looking STL
fully contained
excellent cooling
light
proven camera with some of the absolute best images around done on them
noisy but easily handled needs to run cooler (ideal at -35C)
50mm round filters are cheaper
only holds 5 filters (where do you put your narrowbands?)
lots of accessories available
comes with supplied software and good manual
supplied installation software actually works out of the box without a million Yahoo Group questions being asked although not on Vista boo hoo.
comes with a great case.
cons:
completely relies on the computer if the connection fails ( happens more often than you would think) you need to power down and power up again - very annoying and you lose your cooling (not good at 3am!)
slowish downloads
starting to show its age now, its noisy, less sensitive, less FOV. Its slightly dated but a fantastic camera. No longer cutting edge.
9. SBig ST402ME as a guide camera
Pros:
Fabulous as a guide camera, near instant cooling, good sensitivity, good FOV a beauty.
Cons:
The shutter makes a relaly annoying clicking sound as it hits a pin before it operates. Click click click ( I use 1 second guide exposures - get the idea? nice serene rural dark site - noone around for mile, perfect dark skies, gorgeous stars - click click click!!).
I put a bit of tape on that pin and it stopped it for a while but its started up again although not as loud.
A bit heavy and large as a guide camera but useable.
Screw in power plug is a bit cheap and nasty and a slightly unreliable connection (refer to above to what happens if you lose power!!)
10. Starfish cooled guide and planetary camera:
1.3mp CMOS chip. Sensitive, super fast downloads (it has an internal buffer), will guide as fast as .26 second exposure times although a slight lag because its 1.3mp. USB 2 only which is a drag if you try to use it on an older computer (it won't work). Mine would freeze sometimes unexpectedly. I believe this was fixed with a later driver but it wouldn't load into a Vista computer. It does on XP.
Electronic shutter so no noise. It looks great too with a lovely red anodised curved lightweight body. Less noisy than its same chipped popular competitor the Qhy or Orion.
11. FLI Microline 8300:
Only just got it, looks good, cooling 55C below ambient (thats amazing), solidly and well built, compact, fast downloads.
I couldn't get it to work with the supplied software on a Vista computer but that means nothing as none of them have!! (thanks Microsoft!).
Next dark site trip with good skies I'll use this one.
Well that is my experience with cameras so far.
Greg.