how to start astrophotography?

[lesbehrens]

hi. i am interested in going the next step to photography.i would like to do more dso than planets but i want to do both. i have a 10" and 16" dobs. should i get an eq mount and put the 10"on or buy a new scope?
what is the best way to take the images? dslr or web cam? what r your opinions?
i have also thought of getting a refractor to do this would this be better than the 10"?
les:campfire:

[Tilt]

Well when I started out with imaging I purchased a ED80 and a EQ6 mount, the ED80 being a wide field scope tends to be much more forgiving (than say something with a much longer focal length), and its proven excellent for me to get into astro imaging. Together with this I use a trusty Canon 350D, which I plan to upgrade at a later stage, but the 350D keeping me quite busy at the moment as I learn the ropes.

I do have a GSO 10" Newtonian here too and once I have gained confidence (and the ability to autoguide... /sigh more $$$) I would like to attempt imaging through that, but I've been led to believe its a whole different ball game as its going to require moddifications to the primary mirror in order for the DSLR camera to reach focus.

I guess it also comes down to budget, do you have a DSLR at the moment?

Michael

[Davekyn]

From what I have gathered, if you want to keep it simple, then going a DLSR may be for you, however there advantages & disadvantages to each method one may choose. I myself am much a learner like yourself, searching for what the best way to start is as well.

May I suggest a book that is really helping me to understand the pros & cons of the most popular methods used for astrophotography...”Digital Astrophotography” by Stefan Seip...It is a new book 2008 covering most of today’s equipment and very well written. It gives a little rundown on telescopes, but concentrates primarily on Cameras used and why as well as some processing techniques.

I first got a Dob as recommended by many in here, which I see you already have. Getting some books on the subject will most certainly be a good in helping to understand exactly what your getting into...I too, like Michael have purchased an 80ED and agree that it seems to be the most popular choice,(with good reason) for beginners like ourselves. In fact many people seem to continue with their 80ED with very professional shots, whilst using bigger & more complex telescopes.

I am yet to get a mount...as you will find out...astrophotography is something most of us have to acquire step by step due to the huge expense in approaching it properly. I’ll be going for EQ6Pro as well as a bare minimum...whilst saving away I will continue to research on what camera for what images I wish to specialise in...I believe just like using different scopes for different object, that the same will be for much of the astrophotography equipment as well.

I reckon the safest bet is to get yourself a good book on the subject +an 80ED as well as the best mount you can afford. Have a read and then post your questions again in helping to decide what the best camera option is to start with, given your requirements.

That’s my plan...It’s just going to take me a while is all.

Hopefully we can get some good responses
Later Dave J

[dannat]

i think you'll have to pick one or favour it, or get this to do both

for planets the 10" with webcam

dso -ed80 with d-slr

the eq mount will be a constant, will probably need eq6 to handle the 10"

[Davekyn]

Here is something usefull & entertaining for you.
"Scroll down about half way to- DEEP SKY ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY USING THE MODIFIED TOUCAM 840K PROII...
http://australian-astronomy.bravehost.com/astropics.html
I found the videos quite impresive considering it's just a cheap webcam!

I think it's a great way to get started!!!
Hope that helps.
Dave

[lesbehrens]

hi. y should i buy a refractor with a short fl when i could buy a longer one. what is the difference in viewing?
using a ed refractor is better but using a normal refractor is there major diff in a image?
les

[Davekyn]

Hi,
In regards to focal length...you mention 1stly that you would like to image DSO’s...A short focal length will be able to fit most DSO’s in its field of view, where as a longer focal length will only see part of a large DSO, due to its narrow field of view.

Another reason to START with a shorter focal length apart from imaging more with it, is also the ease of tracking when compared to a longer focal length. Have you even tried to track Jupiter with a higher magnification than what was regarded as useful? You have to track them damn thing every half second...This will for sure pose a new comer problems with exposure issues.

Achromatic Vs ED...if you just want to use a cheap Achromatic refractor, you will end up spending more in the long run on all sorts of filters & other accessories to combat chromatic aberration and false colour ect... The very first thing I noticed with the little 80ED I bought was when looking at Venus I could see it without all the glare and excessive brightness that plagues my Dob and previous cheap refractors...when you combine these negative effects with a camera, you will end up with much worse when capturing the image.

Honestly...I really don’t know that much...but am slowly learning more...By the sounds of thing, you actually remind me of myself when I first started here. The best advice I can give is to learn more about how all the equipment works, learn more about the basics of Astronomy and how light itself works...Grab a new book on the subject...research on Google & ect..

Why a refractor full stop?...I think the other major benefits of why so many are using the ED80 refractor is it’s small and reasonably light which gives more choice over the importance of Mount selection...The colour correction of the ED glass itself is something that wins over a reflector as well (please correct me if I am wrong)...I also believe many will say that a higher resolution or shaper contrast can be reached with a refractor than that of a reflector as well although I am sure many may disagree with that coment.

I hope some of this helps
Dave

[lesbehrens]

oh ok. well that has answered one q. with the eq mount is it better if it is motor drived? should i get it with goto?
what size mount is best for a ed 80?
les

[Davekyn]

I really wish I could answer that for you, but it seems many have different ideas about what is aceptable and what is not. I was reading how some folk don't like using the AZ3 mount with the ED80 for observing. I ended up getting the Heavy Duty versions of the AZ3 and have absolutely no problems at all!.

I have even been messing around with a shoot and go camera, but only for land stuff so far. MMMMMMMMMM you ask a question I wish to know...I know that the mount is like Number 1 most important thing...so I would go the HEQ5 as a Bare minimum...Andrews Comunitcation have some good prices for such a mount. If I was going the HEQ5 I would forego the cost of the goto and only spend half the amount on a moterized version...I,d check and see if it's got periodic controll on it (or whatever its called!)

No, you do not need goto...the only reason I will get it, is because it comes with the EQ6 as a standard, or costs next to nothing as an extra.

I know people are getting good results with even just the EQ5, you just have to pick your site a lot better/watch the weather & be carefull and give some thought to the added gear you will be haning of the scope.

Does any of that make sense??
Dave

[deadsimple]

Sure about that?

I just bought a basic (i.e. only motorised) EQ6 for about $1300 due to the GOTO version costing at least $1900. The GOTO upgrade kit (if you don't buy the GOTO upfront) is roughly $1000.

Unless I misunderstood you.

[AlexN]

Personally, I find that GOTO (where I live) is needed, as apart from the brightest of objects, I cant see anything.. so goto saves me from having to star hop all over the place (where I cant visually see the stars) to find things...

I would go for the ED80 as a start, and over mount it on an EQ6. This will let you move up in time, to using the ED80 as a guide scope beside the 10" newt, giving you a nice field of view, guiding, and enough mount to hold it all..

One thing I was told at the very start of my imaging, is there is no such thing as going overkill on the mount.... the biggest, beefiest mount you can afford is the one you want to buy. This allows you to move up to the 10" newt when you get more confident in your polar alignment skills, and onto even bigger scopes after that (should you want to)

[Davekyn]

I am sure that if you spent your money at Andrews communication, that for only $399.00 more, you could have had the goto as well. BUT they are sold out now...I am sure they will get more in.
The EQ6Pro is only $1699.00 there & is where I’ll be spending my money.
You can get a Heavy Duty HEQ5 GOTO for on $1299.00

The upgrade kit for the EQ5 is only $599.00 & given that the EQ6 upgrade is SOLD OUT I am sure it would of been well under $1000.00

ANDREWS COMMUNICATION is the go to get your mounts...I am sure of that.
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm (http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm)
Dave.

[Davekyn]

Great ideas Alex,
I never considered that about light polluted skys such as where I also live.
Dave

[deadsimple]

I'm aware of that, but since it's sold out (and has been for at least a couple of weeks when I started researching a mount to buy) then it's not exactly an option unless one plans to wait an indefinite amount of time for stock - otherwise I would have bought the GOTO version myself! I just happen to have bad timing with stock levels and exchange rates when I'm interested in buying something :)

Currently the cheapest EQ6 I have found is just over $1250 and the cheapest Pro about $1800, so my argument still stands :)

[Davekyn]

I had no idea it was even an augurment:eyepop:. Whatever the score...as long as your happy with your mount. I am beginning to question wether it's worth paying less to put up with less than ideal service from the money changers. However I don't beleive we should pay more than somthing is really worth...not that I am saying you did that.

No aurguments here...I hope your enjoy your scope.
Dave

[deadsimple]

No one is arguing! Just saying that while your advice is sound, it's almost impossible to act upon due to stock problems :)

I'm happy with my non-GOTO at the moment (gave it my first trial last night), since I don't want or need anything computerised while learning the sky.

Anyway, the EQ6 .. GOTO or not .. is just a fantastically solid mount. Highly recommend it!

[AlexN]

I thought that upon first use also... Since then, my opinion of the mount has only got better... with it now holding upwards of 20kgs of gear, and 4 counterweights, and still maintaining tracking accuracy.. Value for money, the EQ6 CAN NOT be beat..

[Whizgig]

I agree the eq6 is a fantastic mount I will be getting one with my next scope and I cant wait, I have also looked into motorising the focuser as well and a camera so I don't have to touch it at all. I can have it all connected to the laptop and sit back and enjoy. :)

[AlexN]

Eugene, Thats exactly what I've done... I dont get up from my computer once the initial star alignment has been done... everything is controlled via the PC.

[g__day]

The mount is the all critical component - for your larger tube in the GEM range nothing less than a EQ6 will begin to manage.

If your dob is already on base could you add argo narvis and servo cat?

[montewilson]

Value for money agreed! I wish they were available 20 years ago.

There is one caveat with the EQ6. Some are great and some should have been strangled at birth. It's a bit of a lotto. They don't have the QC of high end brands. See if you can get a good understanding with your vendor about what you want as a minimum of performance from the mount so you can swap it if it is a bit of a dog.

[lesbehrens]

OK eq 6 mount. should i just use my 10"or buy a smaller scope to star out? cand the camera. should i go dslr or webcam?
les

[deadsimple]

What's your budget?

[AlexN]

if budget can allow, a DSLR will get better images, larger field of view (this is important because your scope has a 1250mm focal length to start with)

You could look at a shorter focal length to start out, My advise would be to go for something like an ED80, you can image through that unguided for a while (provided you spend a good amount of time and accurately drift align) then as you get confident, get a side by side mounting set up, and guide with the ED80, imaging through the 10"..

Seems like a nice progression to me..

Alex.

[lesbehrens]

is it worht wile getting a ed 80 or just use the 10"?

[AlexN]

Well.. For a starting point, the ED80 will be much easier to use.. a 600~mm focal length is a lot more forgiving than a 1250mm. It will be easier to balance, easier to setup etc... and come 6 months time when you decide you want to step up to a guided setup, you already have the guide scope, and can start imaging through the 10" which will give you bigger image scale..

It will just be much easier for you to start out with the ED80 than the 10"... Thats not to say it can not be done, hell, my first decent deep sky image came out of my C11 @ 1750mm focal length, however that was guided, I doubt it could be done unguided.

I would recommend going for an ED80 if your budget allows, and starting out like that....

[lesbehrens]

what is an ed 80 worth? i have seen differnt prices of differnt brands. could i use a normal refractor to start? it will be cheeper?

[lesbehrens]

ok . y is the focal length a concern?

[AlexN]

you could use an achromatic refractor, however the quality of the images produced generally wont be as good...

An ED80 will cost anywhere between 600 - 900 depending on brand, where you buy it from etc.

They are however among the most used scopes for astro imaging.

Focal length is a concern, because, unless you're guiding, the longer the focal length, the more quickly drift and periodic error will ruin images.. Even with a 100% perfect polar alignment, I've not seen a mount that will take unguided exposures of say 5 ~ 6 minutes without showing some signs of drift with a 1250mm focal length... After tweaking my alignment for a few hours, I managed 4 minutes unguided with a 700mm focal length.. but at 1250mm, even the slightest drift off course will show up..

Im sure someone else can explain this better than I am at the moment... Im rather pre-occupied sitting at my mount at the moment trying to snap off a M20 image before it disappears below the tree line.. :)

[bloodhound31]

Maybe I can help,

I was in your shoes not so long ago, but I have written about every experience along the way that others might benefit from the journey. Try these pages mate and pick my brains whenever you like.

http://www.asignobservatory.com/astrophotography_guide.aspx
http://www.asignobservatory.com/webcam_astrophotography.aspx
http://www.asignobservatory.com/book_review.aspx
http://www.asignobservatory.com/optical_trains.aspx
http://www.asignobservatory.com/drift_alignment.aspx

Cheers,

Baz.:D

[lesbehrens]

ok cool. thanks for your help.looks like i will get a ed 80, eq6, dslr.
going to cost a lot :eyepop:. but i think it will be worth it all!!!!:D
what do i look for in a dslr? i have nevenr used on befor
les:P

[AlexN]

for a starter in deep sky imaging, I would buy either a 2nd hand modified 350D (if you can find one) or a 450D.. The 450D has live view, which will make focusing SO much easier.

A 2nd hand modded 350 will set you back around $500~$600 (unmodified 2nd hand 350's go for around $300~$400 online.

A 450D brand new, with no lenses will cost about $900.

[Tandum]

I think you should get an eq mount, eq6 is ok for that 10", mount the dob on it and get used to the mount, and then plug in a web cam and image planets. At this point you will find you need laptops, extension tubes, barlows etc etc.

Then look at guide scopes, dslr's etc, 2nd hand and go from there.

[AlexN]

^^ Thats what I did... ^^

[lesbehrens]

what is a modded dslr?
sohuld i learn to ues the eq first? like tandum suggested then step up.

[AlexN]

Planetary imaging really gives you a chance to be lazy, and not learn things like drift alignment, the importance of polar alignment and so on..

I got my EQ6 initially so I could take better planetary images, however because of this, I had no real need or want to learn much about my mount at all... It worked, but it was never polar aligned well or anything like that, And i put off drift aligning because i didnt really need to do it... Now that im into deep sky imaging, polar alignment is critical, and it took me quite a while to know how to do get it there...

Yes you could go that way, but its not likely to teach you to use your mount to its potential...

A modded DSLR is a camera thats had the standard IR filter removed, and had either a clear glass replacement, or a Ba'ader/hutech IR filter added...

From the factory, DSLR's are not very sensitive to Ha light.. Ha light is very important to imaging nebulae, so astronomers find ways around this lack of sensitivity. buy removing the standard IR filter, which block everything from IR right the way through the Ha spectrum, and replacing it with a specialized astronomy filter, The Ha (red) spectrum comes out a lot stronger in images, and provides much more pleasing results.

Alex.

[lesbehrens]

i am not to woried about planet but dso:eyepop:. i have just orderd the eq6:thumbsup: i an going to use the 10"on it but i wont have the eq6 for a few months(apprentice wages:()just a dslr to go. but i then have to learn how to image. i hope its fun. more q to come:P.
les

[AlexN]

Mate.. fun doesnt even begin to describe it....

As we all do, expect to have a period of teething problems, where things dont all go to plan.. Its all part of the natural learning curve..

Believe me, the first time you finish a 4 ~ 5 minute exposure and see the result on the cameras LCD... All the hardship that it took to get to that point simply erase themselves from your memory... I can still remember the smile on my face the day I took my first deep sky image... Its amazing..

Best of luck with it, and remember, Asking questions is the key to learning... it doesnt matter if the question seems dumb, ask it...

You're not far from me, and quite a few other very capable astro imagers, If at any stage you need a hand, myself and others around you will gladly help out (especially if a night under your dark skies is on offer :D )

Cheers.
Alex.

[stephenb]

Well done Les. It looks like you are on your way! I look forward to hearing about your successes and failures. It is all a big learning curve but there are plenty of resources and people to assist.

While I whole heartedly agree with the concept of modding the DSLR, I have not done this on mine, mainly because it is my only camera and it is still under warranty. No need to jump into modding a new one, unless of course you can pick up a modded camera.

clear skies

[bobson]

This might be dumb question but I have to ask :)

Canon 350D, is it some special camera for astrophotography or normal DSLR but modified so it can fit into focuser? If not, where do you buy those, or where I could see a picture of them?

thanks

[AlexN]

A 350D is a standard canon Digital SLR.

They can be modified for astronomy by changing the filter to allow more of the spectrum to get to the cameras sesnor.

To attach it to a telescope you need a couple of adapters.... depending on your telescope..

For a refractor, you will likely need an extension tube, a T thread to 2" adapter, and an EOS to T Thread adapter.

For a newtonian, you will usually need the EOS to T thread + T thread to 2" adapter, and you will need to modify the telescope in some way to get the SLR to focus.

This can be done by moving the primary mirror closer to the secondary mirror, installing a low profile focuser, or using a televue paracorr..


Les - Thats the thing I was forgetting to mention... To use your 10" newt, you'll need to modify the tube to allow the slr to focus...

[bobson]

Thanks Mate!

[AlexN]

no problems.

[stephenb]

No dumb questions Bob, (I will stand corrected on the below information), and Alex beat me LOL!

The Canon 350D is (or was) your average run-of-the-mill DSLR produced by Canon a couple of years ago. They just became so popular that a lots of amateur astronomers use them. They have been superseded by several later models since, but because they were popular, you can still buy them on eBay.

Later models certainly do have more functions, than the 350D, but a great camera to pick up, and by what people say, it will do you for many years.

As mentioned earlier by Alex, you can have the camera modded by having the IR filter (i think it's called) removed, but this disables the autofocus, so it becomes a dedicated camera for you and your imaging.

In the USA, they are known as a Canon "Rebel XT".

I use mine for day/normal photography, as well as imaging, so I have no intention of modding mine (I cannot afford to buy two). I am still learning about all the functions on mine.

[lesbehrens]

u r all welcome to come to kilcoy for some observing:D

[lesbehrens]

i'll probaly need help when it comes to this

[AlexN]

Not a problem. :)