Need Advice on Large Binoculars

[Davekyn]

Hi,
Could anyone please recommend a good pair of Binos?...Here’s the thing...I have a pair of cheap 10X50s my wife bought me from Direct Deals for $50.00. Believe it or not I was really impressed! I love the field of view and the feeling of using two eyes.

Anyways...since I now have my dob...I still have not discounted using Bino’s. I would like a pair that I can still hold for short periods of time to scan the skys to help assist with targeting as I do with my cheap 10X50s, but yet have enough power and sharpness to use all on their own when I go bush walking or simply wish to lay back in an outdoor recliner and give the scope a rest.

I’ve kind of worked out that 15X70 may be able to give me the best of both world for quick scanning and very doable with a recliner/monopod or whatnot?...What do you think...

I have not been hearing many good things about “Celestrons Skywatcher series as many have had to return for collimation ect...Thus far I am looking into buying from the states (Garret Optics...GS) I think it was...or I am looking at AOE:
http://www.aoe.com.au/15x70mx.html (http://www.aoe.com.au/15x70mx.html)
for about $459.00 here in Australia?
What do you think?

I really am serious about getting a good pair that I can use by themselves as well as scanning. Should I consider 20X80...I’ve got pretty strong wrists...like I mean for a quick scan to help targeting. Are those monopods good enough for 20X80s? Like could I get use to wiping out a monopod from a backpack and 60seconds later be getting reasonably trouble free superb views of way out yonder?

What do ya think?
Thanks
Dave

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Dave I've had a pair of 20 x 80's from AOE for roughly 18 months now and all I can say is I still reckon their brilliant!
Buy them .. that's all you really need to know.


Read my initial recommendation of them,and the service from Raff at AOE, here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=21377&highlight=binoculars+AOE


Some sights that continued to blow people away when viewed through these bino's at our recent Dark Sky Camp were the Andromeda Galaxy, the LMC and SMC, Tuc 47, The Carina and Orion Nebulae, and any part of the rich star clouds along the main stream of the Milky Way.

One point though, have no expectations of holding them by hand alone for ANY length of time. Yes a monopod works fairly well, I've used one, but if you look in the left foreground of this pic you'l see what I've actually built to use them.
(Bino's not currently mounted on "the Chair" in this image)

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=48301

[Chippy]

Personally I would go for AOE's regular model rather than MX Ultra. They are 1/3 the price and still very nice binos. They're lighter and will be better for using hand held. Unfortunately it doesn't matter how strong your wrists are - you would only be able to use the MX Ultra's for very short periods hand held. I have the AOE 15x70 and am very happy. Good quality binos and AOE are good to deal with - I believe they're a great buy!

[Davekyn]

Thanks,
Very good point on weight...kind of defeats my purpose. I think I will be going the standard 15X70 at aoe. They are obviously going to be better than my 10X50s-$50.00 Direct Deals elcheapo's.

I may aquire a cheap monopod off ebay after I trial them first...or even use my sisters light camera tripod for size.

Hopefully they will do with using just a chair/car/fence/laying down or just plain practise.

Steve...I read up on your reviews...Nicely done...I feel confidant buying off these guys now & if I begin to fall deeper into Bino Viewing I,ll be sure to get an even bigger pair from them again:)

Later
Dave

[g__day]

I balk at those prices - Andrews Comms sell 80mm * 20 triplets (BAK4 prisms - fully multi coated for around $199. Owning a pair I have to say they are excellent. Weighty - but that is their only drawback.

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-11.htm

Otherwise the 70mm by 11 magnification ones at $129 - weighting half of the triplets would be very useable.

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Matt the 20x80's at Andrews are the same ones I bought from AOE, in fact they both carry many of the same models form the same manufacturer.

At the time AOE was the less expensive of the 2, but as AOE is currently out of stock of that model, and Dave is loking at 15x70's anyway it doesn't matter so much. I bought multiple pairs of those 20x80's and all I can say is I paid less than the price currently listed at Andrews per pair anyway.

I should add I am not knocking Andrews in any way at all, I am also a huge supporter of Andrews Communications and have bought 2 scopes and many other bits and pieces from there. Both are great dealers, boht have always been nothing less than 100% helpful to me.

[Chippy]

The AOE 15x70 have superior coatings to the Andrews 15x70. I should know - I bought both. They may also be better collimated. I've got nothing against Andrews (buy heaps of kit from them) but I would purchase binos from AOE over Andrews in general.

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Dave,

Looking at the two, I would get the Andrews 20X80 with the hard carry case with custom foam insert for only $229!

The soft one that comes with the 11X70mm ones I have is pretty much useless when it comes to protecting them so I recommend the custom fitted hard case version.'

The AOE ones look exactly the same (as Steve pointed out) so if your budget stretches to $230, snap these ones up.

Keep in mind, the exit pupil on binos is the aperture divided by the magnification, so in this case will be 4mm, one reason I got my 11X70's is because the exit pupil is closer to 7mm and this matters more because as you get older, your eye cant open as far so some of the light coming through the binos cant get in!. Also, the wider field of the lower mag really broadens the view and increases contrast.

A few things to consider....

Cheers

Chris

[Ian Robinson]

I use a venerable pair of Unitron 20x80s frequently , I don't need to use a pod, they are OK (for me handheld). I am more inclined to grab them and head down the backyard, plonk my rear end in a campchair and spend a while looking at this and that favourite than to both dragging out a GEM setting it up, rough polar align, and plonk a scope on it.

I used for over 20 years a pair of 20x65s , hand held mostly , though for variable star obs I rigged up a makeshift pier in mum and dad's bkyd so I could aim and concentrate on steady image. Still have them , bit battered looking now , but still useable.

If you buy a pair of 20x80s or 15x80s , spend a bit more and buy quality , it'll pay off long term.

Very nice views of starfields, open clusters, comets.

[darrellx]

Hi All

This is very timely. I have been looking for a good pair of 20x80s for some time.

I notice that AOE has two models of binos in the 20x80 config. The 20x80T(Triplet Lens) for $219. Then there are the 20x80TIF (Triplet Lens) for $349. It is these last ones that come in a hard case.

Does any one know the real difference between the two? And is it worth the $130?

I suppose the other question is what is the difference between these and the Andrews semi-APO 20x80 for $199.

Thanks
Darrell

[h0ughy]

have a look at this thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=25671&highlight=100mm+binocular) - the 100mm binos i got from Andrews are brilliant, but i needed a mount which i got from Bintel. worth every penny

[redsquash]

I will try out a pair of Fujinon 25 x 150-EDMT-SX, Water Proof Porro Prism Binocular Telescope with 2.7 Degree Angle of View next week end. :eyepop:


I will borrow from my Japanese high school. I just discovered they have an Astronomy club.
They have a 30 inch dobson and some huge scope and mount which which I think 4 men might be able to lift but very awkwardly:eyepop:

[Davekyn]

I am wondering the same thing Darrell,

I also wish to know what the real difference between those two 20X80mm Triplets at AOE. Probably will not matter as the cheaper triplet is out of stock. I also got the feeling that the Binos & Andrews might be of lesser quality in regards to coatings...Not to mention I don’t like their freight couriers TNT...However they ship Bios via Australia Post if that makes one feel better.

I’ve just come back from a lookout session with a mate of mine, & I still can’t believe how much I can see with a basic set of 10X50! I’m starting to think I might just get a pair of 12X60 to replace my cheap 10X50s.

I’m still going to get a pair of Giants but I am getting a mount as well. The Idea (for now at least) is to have some serious observing equipment that I can HIKE with. I once thought I might use a short focal refractor, but the mounts for those look a lot bigger than what I could get away with using Bino’s. There seems to me a lot of other benefits using Giant Binos over a short refractor when thinking of Bush walking ect.

I was wondering about the $170 mount at AOE...they seem light enough to slug over my shoulder...much more than a telescopic mount...It states that it will hold most models of Binos up to 100mm. I guess that could mean a lot & does not leave me with a clear idea of just what I can or can’t put on that mount; none the less it seems like an attractive price. I am guessing that 20X90 binos would be the most you would go on that mount...any comments?

OK...So I am going to get a mount now!...I am still deciding on app...The 25X100 @ both Andrews and AOE look ok...BUT...I have heard that large apps such as these suffer some sort of distortion on the edge of FOV? Also FOV is another thing. Would 20X90 offer more please views...like the term...”stereo wide screen” often used to sell such binos...

Basically...I guess I have had a change of heart...I am now going to get a cheap set of 12X60...Would I be right to assume the ones at AOE for $99.00 have better coatings that the really Cheap looking ones at ANDREWS for $49.00...or are they the same?

As for the other...I have to decide between the 20X80 Triplets...$349 (something extra about them...Darrell wants to know as well as I) and the available ones $200 standard Triplets at Andrews- Over the benefits of a 20X90 (larger app & wider FOV-is that true?) or get the Massive 25X100 with its TINY FOV????????? Used with a smaller set much like when using alongside a Telescope?

That’s it...anyone care to comment on my current line of thinking as twisted as it tends to getJ
Just trying to make sure I get what I am after is all:screwy:
Later
Dave

[Quark]

Hi Dave,
My experience is you get what you pay for.
That said I recall seeing an add in Sky & Space a few years ago from a business called ozstronomy flogging relatively cheap Chinese made Bino's that were supposedly a copy of some German brand.

Thought that they would be crap so did nothing about it. That year this guy that owned oztronomy turned up at the SPSP, not a clever move if his bino's were crap. Checked out his 15 x 70, they had BAK4 prisms and were fully multicoated.

Star images looked good and they had a reasonably wide field, about 5 degrees, I came home with a set of them. Think they were about $250 but that was probably 5 or 6 years ago.

I built a trapezium mount for them and use them with my astronomy group and occasionally with school groups.
Have attached an image of them on the mount.

Regards
Trevor

[Davekyn]

Absolutely...here is a link to a really cheap pair of 80mm Binos at directdeals, I have the 10X50 pair and they really work well!!!
I am not to keen on the zoom part, & “if” I ever bought these cheap 8-s I would not expect much, however it would not surprise me if they worked well.
I am just willing to pay more this time around...here is the link to what can be had:
http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/18-52-80-extra-tobishika-binoculars/

[Satchmo]

I bought a pair of those generic chinese 12 X 60 rubber armoured binos in 2002 from Oztronomy. I originally wanted the 15 X 70 but tested out 5 pairs at night and none were in collimation. Thought the 12 X 60 a bargain at the time for $260. When the dust settled I realised they were pretty poor quality . Evertything had play in it . You even had to be careful not to lean more on one eyepiece as it would send both sides out of focus. You can get them locally for $49 now .

I have owned a number of pairs of binoculars and these were by far the lowest build quality and I think about $49 is what they are worth.

FYI I currently own 10 X 42 Gerber roof prism
20 X 80 Vixen long focus objectives ( circa 1986 )
25 X 100 FB Chinese generic ( good but a lot of work getting them collimated to my satisfaction) .

The 12 X 60's are in the junk bin after one of the eyepieces just fell off in the middle of a paddock somewhere at night. :lol:

[Ian Robinson]

:sadeyes:

Envy overload ....:sadeyes:

[Chippy]

Hi Dave,

The AOE 12x60 binos are very good also (I've looked throught them). In fact I nearly got them instead of the 15x70. They're still on my list of things to buy. They are a VERY good balance between power and portability/usability AND they can be used hand held for longer periods!! A big plus. I would definitely recommend them.

I also have the AOE heavy duty tripod. It is quite good quality, and also quite light (you could take it hiking). It does not compare with a parallelogram or fork mount - but given the price and weight considerations I still rate it a buy. It is NOT useable with 25x100 binos for astronomical use - but just OK for terrestrial. 20x90s would also be too much for astro IMO. It is OK for any of the 20x80 or smaller binos. Bear in mind that adjustments will be somewhat fiddly with this type of mount, as it's really designed as a photo tripod, and doesn't lend itself particularly well for astro work. But it does extend high enough to use standing which is a big plus for me. Works quite well with 15x70s :-) If you can afford one of the more expensive bino mounts then they are certainly better - but not portable. But I assume you don't want to spend that much on the mount... yet!! Making your own is another option to consider if you're handy. Plenty of designs on the web.

For the price of the AOE binos you really can't go wrong IMO. They are great. Just pick a size (or two) and have fun. Personally I would go for something in the 12x60 to 20x80 size (or both of these) in their standard models. These are lighter and therefore more managable, and still great to look through.

Don't forget to let us know what you decide!!!

Nick.

[Davekyn]

Yea...
I’ve pretty much made my mind up...Thanks all!
After some lengthy research amongst various forums, websites & the links you guys have provided-considering my needs (Astro/scenic & portability); I’ve gone pretty much what Nick has recommended! I had my mind pretty much made up before & after reading your post Nick...it seemed two great minds think alike.

Call me crazy, but I did a little test with TWO X 2.5killo weights in my backyard + my 850gram 10X50s. I found I could get a FEEL of the different weight ratios by placing my 10X50s snugly atop of the dumbbell weights. My hand hold was pretty much the same taking into account that I placed the Binos a little back to allow my nose the space needed, so as to rest the eye pieces snugly in place. (The weights were more to the front) I did this test with no bracing of any kind except changing my stance.

Results:
Were interesting to say the least...First impression left me thinking what is the big deal...with 2x2.5killos + 850grams total of 5.85kg I seemed to be holding out quite well...that was until I spotted a 747 (or commercial airliner of some sort) up in the clouds. It was very jittery...extremely. It did not take long to hit home the effect this was going to have on my stargazing. I then tried this weight and trained my sights on some distant trees attempting to spot birds at the wrong time of the morning. Unfortunately I could see the same kind of dilemma when trying to concentrate on very fine targets.

Despite now knowing firsthand the kind of trouble that can arise with viewing very small objects against a lager background...I did find that scanning was no trouble at all and that practicing could yield good results for quick concentrated attempts. Once I dropped the weight back to a total of 3.35kg I found the effectiveness of scanning twice as good when compared to 5.85kg. That’s like comparing a 20X80 Triplet to a 25X100. Short concentrated bursts also yielded twice the performance and I was happy with that.

There are two things my test does not count for...the weight distribution & offcourse Magnification! I therefore expect that indeed the truth may not really be known until I get my hands my intended purchases. However I did learn that there are certain techniques one can practise to assist with stability other than just a tripod, and that indeed, there is quite a noticeable difference in jitter as the kilos are added.

Like you suggested nick...I am going to get a pair of 12X60 from “AOE” where I can clearly see & read what it is that I am buying (I’ve also bought from Andrews & will continue too (Bar TNT delivery!) However find AOE much defined with respect to specifications & quality control when discussing Binoculars.

I am also going to get 20X80, BUT because I am going to BUILD my own mount...I’m putting the otherwise mount money into the $349.00 AOE 20X80 TIF (Higher Quality up marketed – Triplet) I like the fact that the BaK-4 Prisims are rated as “oversized” as I read that helps brighten up the image with respect to magnification & app...There is a lot of sales pitch and Toughness & durability, however am a little upset that there is nothing on fog proof. Oh well.

I’ve always wanted a triplet of some kind since I heard about them, and being way over my budget in the scope dept at present...I think this selection of Bino will serve me well for many years. I am confident that I will be able to rig up a good mount following the instruction on this sight somewhere. In fact I have all sorts of ideas floating in my head on that score & relish the idea of yet another project...(not that I am any good, but it will keep my busy)
I think will mess around with larger exit pupil & wider fields of view (+ added benefits of stability with such binos) on my next purchase. I’ve been told that I am young at 39-40, but I thought at that age ones exit pupil is on its way down from 6-5. I am beginning to understand some of the significances as I learn more and would like very much to see, if in fact “I” do notice a brighter image ect...when thinking of such things. At the moment I’m happy to settle dealing with the high mags as a separate issue which will benefit my in the longer run as I get older.

That’s it!!!!! & it’s final this time! 12X60 (with optional mounting ability) Good Quality 20X80 Triplets & I’ll build my own mount.

Now......mmmmmmmmmmmm......Bino Views?

Thanks Guys
Dave

[darrellx]

Hi all,

The bino questions seems to be very topical at the moment. I have been in touch with AOE, and this is what I got concerning the difference between the 20x80T and 20x80TIF.

Both the 20x80T and 20x80TIF are very good binoculars, but there are some important differences between them. The main advantages of the TIF over the normal T is that the TIF have larger prisms, enhanced barrel coatings, CNC machined components, Aluminium carry/storage case, water proof and nitrogen purged. Other differences are that the TIF have individual focus which not be ideal if you will be using them for general wildlife spotting when you need to constantly move the focus, but would be an advantage for astronomical purposes, they are also heavier which means you need to consider the capacity of your tripod.
The 20x80T have been out of stock for a while now because we rejected the last 2 batches we received, unfortunately we may not have them until around December/January. 20x80T and 20x80TIF have build in tripod adapter mounts.

So I think I have now settled on the 20x80TIF.

Darrell

[erick]

One trick for hand-holding is to hold the binoculars out near the ends of the barrels. There should be somewhat less movement as your hands shake the same amount. It helps for me, but took a bit of practice to get used to.

[Davekyn]

My order is going in at the end of the week :D. I am awaiting a reply email, so far they have been really great to deal with:thumbsup:

As for the focusing...I too was not happy about such a change...BUT...like most things...I am sure that It will gell with me after using them for a short while. I find I do more scenic than wild life, so scanning is more the go for me. I did not find the section on them being water proof...but hey...I wont be complaining about that!

Thanks for the update on why the extra cost...IMO,I think it's worth it..
Just spotted ya there Erick...Hi & thanks for the tip
Dave:)

[Chippy]

Sounds like good choices. Look forward to hearing your experiences with them down the track. I agree with Eric on holding them near the objectives - that can help to stabilise. Resting on a fence is also a good tip, and tucking your elbows in nice and tight to act as a brace. An outdoor reclining chair is also good if you have one.

The individual focusing is less convenient IMO. I believe they do this primarily to make them more water proof. It's not a deal breaker though.

The only comment I will make is that I don't expect these 20x80 triplets will really be useable hand held much at all. Perhaps for very short scans, but the standard doublet 20x80's are much lighter and can be hand held.

WRT to the tests you performed Dave - I can vouch for the fact that managing the 25x100's is much more difficult than the test you performed with the additional weights. Yes the extra magnification plays a big part - but these are huge, and very long (read awkward). Absolutely unusable hand held in any form. I originally thought I would be able to use them resting the objective end on a railing and swivelling around. Nup! The 20x80TIF will be much easier than these though. A good choice I think.

[ausastronomer]

We have a pair of these as part of the equipment inventory at 3RF Australia. We take them to Coonabarabran every year for the visiting US Astronomers to use.

Costing well west of $10K, plus another $5k for a suitable mount, you would expect them to be superb, which they are.

However, they are not really relevant for discussion in a thread on budget Chinese Binoculars. They have no similarities in any respect, other than the fact they are both called "binoculars".

Cheers,
John B

[ausastronomer]

Hi Dave,

If you wanted to consider something slightly smaller in Aperture but better in quality, the 20X60 Pentax PCF WP II are very good. They are hand holdable and offer excellent optical performance. They are fully multicoated, use back 4 prisms, Nitrogen filled, waterproof and fogproof. They are very light for their aperture and magnification and very comfortable to use with 20mm of eye relief. The field of view is slightly narrow at 2.2 degrees but they offer tack sharp views right across the full FOV. They are a fair step ahead of the larger generic Chinese Binoculars in optical quality in just about every respect.

Here is a link to some information on them

http://shop.centre.net.au/index.html?cat=00065S000665&prid=0015NN&it=product

That dealer is no longer trading but they can be purchased from several Australian Dealers for about $300 including Frontier Optics and BINTEL.

Cheers,
John B