laser pointers?

[bmitchell82]

hey all,

just wondering if laser pointers have become useable to the amature astronomers again? after all the hype has died down. I take my family out sometimes when it isn't too cold to look at things and sometimes its kinda hard to explain to a 5 year old where to look or what he is looking at. any other ideas if the lasers arnt avalible.?

Brendan

[iceman]

Hi Brendan.

You can still buy them from most astronomy shops and probably all over ebay and other sites on the internet.

Check this thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=33630) for more, however I don't know what the relevant laws are in W.A.

[erick]

Contact Matthew Lovell in South Australia

PH: 61+ 8 8381 3188
FAX: 61+ 8 8381 3588
telescopes@adam.com.au
http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au

He advertises:-

"GREEN LASER POINTERS

We are licensed importers and retailers of Green, Red and Blue Lasers. All Lasers have a 3 month warranty. We offer a repair service for all Laser Pointers. We exchange your broken Laser for a new one if kept in good condition and purchased from us:

JLP Series Green Laser Pointer

JLP-1mW - $80AUD
JLP-5mW - $115AUD
JLP-10mW - $170AUD
JLP-20mW - $240AUD
JLP-30mW - $280AUD
JLP-50mW - $340AUD
JLP-100mW - $490AUD
JLP-350mW - $990AUD
JLP-400mW - $1190AUD

Astronomy 1mW Green Laser Pointer $100AUD

Various Laser Modules available"

5mW should be more than enough. If his 1mW one works OK (if your sky is dark enough), you might be able to stay below the power level that needs licences etc.

[marki]

Brendan, you can get them from Karrynup shopping centre. There is a shop near Myers that sells them but you have to ask the guy as he does not have them on display. There are no laws in WA relating to lasers. They have been re-classified as a class 2 weapon so if you are caught pointing them at another person or aircraft you will be charged the same as if it were a gun (got this straight from WA police firearms). Reponsible use is ok and you do not need any permits etc.

Mark

[Blue Skies]

There definitely ARE laws regulating lasers in WA, they are looked after by the Radiological Council. Legally you can own a green laser up to 5mw in strength without getting into trouble. If you want to own and use one at a higher rating you need to pay for a licence, state where you will be using it and do a half day course on safe laser usage. Most of this would be aimed at other regulars of lasers, such as universities and medical equipment, but the law extends to green laser pointers in this case. I strongly recommend you contact the Radiological Council if you any further questions or need clarification on these laws. I'm involved with both ASWA and Perth Observatory as a volunteer and with both organisations we take great care to be on top of the law at all times, so I've had to keep up with developments.

Be safe - just go for a 5mw. There's no need for overkill.

[AstroJunk]

A powerfull torch or spotlight does it. Not nearly as cute as a thin green line, but that's what astronomers have been using for decades and they work (nearly) as well!

I was at a show in The Alice recently where both were used - the spotlight to show 'big' items such as constellations, and the laser to point out small details. It was very efffective.

[Kal]

Excellent post. I found the link to the Radiological Council webpage regarding lasers here (http://www.radiologicalcouncil.wa.gov.au/Pages/FAQ/Lasers.html) for all W.A. people with questions regarding lasers.

[OneOfOne]

Hmm...don't know if the spotlight would be popular if you were doing it at a public viewing!

[Kal]

roflmao, I can just imagine someone switching it on at a starparty and hearing a sea of moans!

[marki]

Thanks for that info. When I was ringing around to try and find out I always ended up with an all legal just don't point it at anyone type statement. I certainly would not have thought to ring the Radiological Council owing to the fact that I did not know they existed let alone had been given the power to regulate lasers. I could have bought the death star laser for all the firearms people cared and everyone was directing me to them as the regulator (customs included). I agree, 5mw is enough.

Mark

[bmitchell82]

So the 5mw will give you that distinctive line so people can follow? i thought it was a 35 - 45 that became visable? meh <---- Noob :D

[marki]

I use a 5mw green laser when we run astronomy nights at school and the beam is easily seen in the dark.

[chris lewis]

Here over in New Zealand there are no regulations whatsoever. You can buy all power of lasers on our local ‘Trade Me’ site.
However it may change in the future as there have been a few incidences of lasers aimed at commercial pilots.

100mw green lasers are $NZ160
80 mw are $130
50mw 532 nm Class 111b are $75
50 are $69
30mw nm Class 111b are $45
10mw are $35

There are 150mw ones available but unsure of the price.
They are advertised for astronomical use.

The more powerful lasers state ‘it can burn through plastic’.
The only warning is that ‘they are not intended for Children and they can cause permanent eye damage’.

[Blue Skies]

It has long been a gripe of mine that although these laws exist and have done so for some time, no one enforces them. If they were that important I would have thought that Customs would be stopping them in the post, but they aren't and never have. Once people started to realise it wasn't happening here in WA the floodgates opened and everyone started ordering them from outside the state, the only limit seemed to be that you couldn't buy one from inside WA because of the 1mw rule, and yet even that seems to have gone by the wayside at the moment. And...even the Radiological Council was hazy on them at one point, even though the ball's in their court! The whole thing is a schmozzle, a very frustrating schmozzle, IMO. I wouldn't really mind if they were banned completely as long is it was crystal clear what the lawful status was to everybody. [/rant]

[marki]

I think you will find that as a federal department, customs will follow federal law rather than state law (they certainly are in this case with the new limit being 5mw). From the post below it seems that most of the rules are aimed at regulating industry and I would imagine it would be a mammoth task to try and control lasers coming in from the east via oz post and other couriers. However, as a science teacher I do not support a complete ban on hand held lasers as they are such a valuable teaching tool. It seems some of the Eastern State Govt's agree as they have included teachers in their lists of appropriate users. Prohibition is unlikely to work as lasers are not difficult to construct.

Mark

[Jeff]

I expect a large reason for the new legislation is to give police/courts powers to inflict significant penalties on idiots who try to use these devices near airports to harass pilots. I understand there have been a lot more incidents of this occurring in Australia recently than appear in the news.

I have found Customs to be very good, but the variation and duplication of legislation between the states is a bit baffling to me. Maybe common sense will prevail in the medium term for amateur astronomers to legally/responsibly acquire and use modest power laser pointers ... without having to pay registration fees ($154 every three years) to "carry" a dangerous weapon which for many of us is permanently attached to a telescope as a finder.
:prey:

To me, it's a matter of finding "balance" in how these laws are applied, and settling on a nationally uniform approach once a good balance is found.

[marki]

Agree totally.

Mark

[bmitchell82]

well all laws aside, if the 5mW laser does the correct job and allows people to see it then i don't care about any other class of laser ! :D ill go and get me one w00t! and yes they are great as a sight glass! especially on crappy telescopes!

[erick]

One point worth noting is that one needs to be close to the source of the laser to see the beam. Like of the order of a few metres. The lower the power, the closer one needs to be. My experience is that anyone standing more than about 10-15m from me cannot see the beam of my 5mW green laser. So crowd people around you if you want them to see the beam. If you are going to have people some distance from you, better step up to 10-20mW.

[citivolus]

My 20mW is only visible in air from up to about 20m away. That basically makes it visible from my neighbour's yard and no farther, and they'll just ask what I'm up to if they spot it. I'm not too concerned about drawing unwelcome attention while using it, provided I pay attention to the departures flight path to the west of me and arrivals to the east.

On another note, customs has been opening all of my possibly laser-pointer sized torch shipments lately for inspection. They really do seem to be paying attention on this one.

[marki]

I have been trying a little experiment after the change in laws regarding the import of lasers. I started my little adventure a number of weeks ago to see how it all worked downloading relevent info, gaining state firearms approval etc etc. Well I finally received word from customs about importing a laser collimator today after waiting 5 weeks for a response. I opened the letter expecting that approval had been given, instead I was informed that laser collimators did not in this persons opinion fall into the controlled catergory and I was free to import it at any time :whistle:. In my opinion it could be hand held and used as a pointer if one wished. I can see this is going to be the fun bit as the item should arrive monday next week and I am reasonably sure that it will be held by customs :shrug:. I have the letter I received in response to my application with contact numbers but if they refuse to accept it, it will be back to the drawing board I think (e.g. another 5 weeks of bureaucratic bovine faeces) before I get it. I wonder if they kept my application forms in Canberra?

Mark

[marki]

Well I got my laser collimator today and it passed straight through customs without any problems. I hope this saves time for others who are thinking about importing one. You don't need to apply to customs at all. I am not sure how this would apply to state authorities though.

Mark

[Omaroo]

Just FYI - here;s Macarthur Astronomical Society's (MAS) official laser usage policy as posted on our website:

http://www.macastro.org.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=115

[caleb]

does this mean i can order a 5mw laser anytime without letting the govt. know; im in NSW btw?

[Jeff]

Some good news. :astron:

After a lengthy process (approx 6 weeks from when goods were detained) involving several letters, forms and telephone calls, I received final approval to retrospectively import a telescope mounted laser pointer (detained by Customs just after the new laws came into effect), and collected it today from Customs Detained Goods at Melbourne airport.

The item imported was a Jasper Always-On laser pointer (<5 mW) plus a dovetail gamble mount. http://www.jasperlaser.com/index.php?/shop/details/1 (http://www.jasperlaser.com/index.php?/shop/details/1)
This allows me to easily illuminate the SCP with my Dob/Argo Navis, then quickly and accurately polar align my EQ mount through its polar scope for astrophotography.

After receiving notification from Customs that my laser pointer has been confiscated, the process steps which I followed for approval in Vic were as follows:

1. Download and complete B709B Weapons Customs Import Application from Victoria Police
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=3924

2. Send completed B709B form to Vic Police (Licensing Services Branch) with a covering letter providing:
- copy of Customs seizure notice, receipt of good docket, and completed B144/B710 forms
- image/specifications of purchased green laser pointer
- explanation of intended usage (eg. permanently mounted to telescope to assist with polar/object alignment)
- photocopies of my ASV membership and drivers licence
- images of my current astronomy equipment

3. Received B709B Importation of Weapons “Police Confirmation” (original plus a copy) from Vic police after about a week.

4. Send “Police Confirmation” original to the Minister for Justice & Customs (5 Constitution Avenue, Canberra, ACT, 2601) with a covering letter providing:
- copy of Customs seizure notice, receipt of good docket, and completed B144/B710 forms
- image/specifications of purchased green laser pointer
- explanation of intended usage (eg. permanently mounted to telescope to assist with polar/object alignment)
- photocopies of my ASV membership and drivers licence
- images of my current astronomy equipment

5. Received “Permission to Import” ministerial letter from the Minister for Justice & Customs after about 3 weeks.

6. Went into Customs at Melbourne Airport (Detained Goods desk at Customs House), provided paperwork (“Police Confirmation” copy and ministerial “Permission to Import”), then received the confiscated goods.

All of the officials which I dealt with at Customs in Melb and Vic Police were very courteous and professional, but exercised due diligence to ascertain that I was in fact a practising amateur astronomer. Although the process was long and tedious, I was heartened to see the efforts being exercised to keep laser pointers out of the hands of nutters and idiots.

I was also impressed to see common sense exercised by the Vic Police who chose not to inflict a $153 registration fees to posses as “controlled weapon” for a laser pointer which is being mounted on a telescope (rather than being carried around as a hand held device anywhere).

So the approval process is working (albeit slowly) for genuine amateur astronomers who can provide details of intended usage, astronomy equipment, and astronomical society membership. Maybe the effort and delays involved might have a positive effect … dissuading casual users and kids from acquiring them as toys.

Cheers,
Jeff

[erick]

Looks like we are going to need some official-looking Snake Valley Astronomical Association membership cards! :)

Jeff, the Jasper is basically a hand-held, it seems to me. Did you get a sense of what their views would be on the importation of a hand-held only? Or did the accompanying dovetail mount clinch the argument in your case?

[Jeff]

Hi Eric,

My discussions with Vic Police Licensing Services Branch (phone discussions, followed up in writing) stressed the intended usage of the laser pointer & bracket. It was agreed that since I was not seeking permission to "carry" a laser pointer on my person, I should not be required to pay $153 every 3 years to carry a controlled weapon. My impression was that I may have been required to "register/license" the laser pointer as a controlled weapon if I were seeking permission to carry the laser pointer anywhere as a hand held device .... not sure. I expect arrangements and due diligence procedures are still in the settling in period.

From my phone discussions and the written info provided, it would have been quite apparent that I was a genuine and serious amateur astronomer. The Superintendent who I spoke with also seemed quite knowledgeable about astronomy (types of scopes, major societies, major deep sky sites, etc).

[erick]

Thanks Jeff, I wondered by the licence fee was waived.

While I have no need at present, perhaps I will want to import in future. I have my licence to carry and will renew it when it falls due, if I can. I sense that having that licence may ease the approval for import of a hand-holdable, but that, conversely, approval for a hand-holdable without the clear intention that it spend most of its time mounted on a scope may be harder.

[lloydysun]

Hi Brenden, R'e Laser Pointers, Mate I belong to an Astronomy Society in Western Syndey, we "DON'T" nead a special licence to own or use a Green Laser, provided that you do the right thing. Astronomy Societies are exempt from getting a licence, compared to the public. However if you use the laser to do stupid things like pointing them towards Planes you'll be in massive trouble. If i am outside showing some friends the skies, and all of a sudden the police come around,what you do is tell them that you belong to an Astronomy Society. If they check with the Astronomy society and it is verified that you belong to that club, you'll be ok..cyou..Lloyd...

[Liz]

I ordered one on Ebay, but got seized by Customs in Brisbane, last week!! I rang them, and could probably get it back 2 months later, after many forms/got to Police station etc. Cant be bothered, as was only a cheapie. Looking for an Aus cheaper source now.

[Robbie]

I had a visit from the local constabulary about the laser pointer attatched to my 10" meade sct, I was reported and located by police air one, when the coppers showed up I showed them the scope and attached pointer, they tried to tell me I was shining it at the chopper, I told them I wasnt and if it hit them (which it didnt) then it was because they flew through it.
Just in passing tho the only real reason lasers are being banned is that cops dont like little lights popping up on their chests at night it makes them nervous for some reason, all the other reasons are a crock. :thumbsup:

[centroid]

There have been prosecutions in the UK, of people pointing Green Lasers at aircraft, and in one case, at a Police Helicopter, who were VERY quick in locating the source.

We are now seeing cases of them being pointed at drivers on the Motorway (Freeway).

Sooner or later, they are going to cost lives, and if preventing that happening meant that I couldn't buy one, then that's fine by me.

Not that I want one, as a finder scope or red dot finder, works fine.

Dave