Mewlon 210, Vixen VC 200L

[Zuts]

Hi Guys,

I really want to get some extra focal length and go galaxy hunting. At the moment I have narrowed my choices to a Vixen VC 200 L or a Mewlon 210.

I would be using the scope with my SBIG 2000 XCM. Without a focal reducer the Mewlon would give me an image scale of 0.63 arcsecs/pixel and the Vixen 0.85 arcsecs/pixel.

Is this image scale to ambitious (on an EQ6), and which scope do you think would give better results.

Any input appreciated :)

Cheers
Paul

[marki]

I think you would have lots of trouble with longer exposures and your mount would have to have near perfect tracking. I thought the best you could hope for was about 2 arcsecs/per pixel due to atmospheric turbulance, even on a very good night. Still they claim seeing is about 1 arcsec if you are sitting on top of a great big mountain like the himalayas :D.

[Zuts]

Yes, but even an SBIG 11K or a full frame 5D would only give me 1 arcsec/pixel. People do attempt astrophotography with a Mewlon and they dont normally go to the Himalayas.

Cheers

[marki]

You could use binning ??? It works ok with the canon if I dont put in a focal reducer which is pretty rare. At F10 its just too hard to get the tracking right. Yes I have also seen some very nice images from Mewlons and VC 200's. Both are very desirable scopes.

[netwolf]

Better mounts and Adaptive optics may play a part in those images that you have seen.

[montewilson]

Start a new thread called something like "EQ6 - what is the most accurate guiding possible?" That will flush out plenty of answers from the EQ6 fans. Most of them will not have noticed this thread.

[JohnH]

Hi Paul,

I have a VC200L on an SXW mount with a Canon 20D at prime this gives me 0.73"/pixel, I almost always use the FR and run at 1.16" per pixel.

Even then I find my images tend to look soft at full res and generally scale down 50% to get a pleasing on-screen appearance, prints easily bear examination at A4 size or bigger.

I think either scope is going to work very well for you but imaging at the scale proposed is going to be a real challenge, certainly I find myself limited by seeing/tracking which is typically +/- 1-2 ".

I think the rule of thumb is 2 pixels or less tracking error for a good looking image for me this means an image scale of 4" per pixel would be ideal though some suggest some oversampling is good so 2" would be better...I am not 100% convinced here but for me I would would prefer a little less scale and a wider fov. Perhaps a better mount would help me?



Rgds, John




PS - You are not far from my place (Hornsby Heights) - you are welcome to have a stick beak at my VC200L if you like....

[marki]

Seen one taken using QHY8 and a VC 200 on a EQ6 without adaptive optics. Not too bad for a first go. I think he has binned this one??? Check the link.

http://www.myastroshop.com.au/guides/vixen-vc200l.asp

[Dennis]

I understand that the reflective coating on the primary mirror of the VC200L actually forms part of the final figure of the “VISAC”. This means that the mirror needs to be returned to Vixen for any re-aluminising.

I did hear (on the rumour mill) that one VC200L owner in Qld didn’t know of this and had his mirror re-coated locally and as a result, I was told “he cannot focus” the telescope any more.

I don’t have names, dates and places, just word of mouth unfortunately.

Cheers

Dennis

[Terry B]

I use my VC200L on an EQ6 and either 9um CCD pixels or the 40D.
I can guide when facing the west within 2 arcsecs according to giudemaster. It isn't as good facing east. I haven't worked out why. This gives me round stars mostly with 5 min exposures with a FWHM of about 4pixels. If I use the focal reducer then the FWHM is about 2.8 pixels.
It is certainly possible to image small objects with this combination. Can't speak for the mewlon as I have never seen one.

[Dennis]

How important is backfocus? What accessories will you be adding – a Motorised Focuser? OAG?

The VC200L has an excellent R&P focuser with a fixed Primary mirror. The Mewlon 210 focuses using a moving Primary, similar to an SCT.

Cheers

Dennis

[Hagar]

Hi paul, Very interested in this thread as I am looking at the same scope choices as you. I have a QHY8 and would like that bit of extra FL. What ssort of price is the Mewlon?
I also thought about the new RC scopes being produced by GSO but I am unsure as they don't make a field flattener or focal reducer as yet. Who knows they may neve get around to it. The initial release of the 8" is well overdue.

[Zuts]

Hi Doug,

I am very interested in this thread as well, I fully intend to reply to everyone who has posted, i am just waiting to get as many opinions as possible.

The Mewlon can be had for around 3000 AUD from AEC, click the link on the right. Another option I am considering is the VMC 260L. This gives 10.5 inches of aperture for the price of the Mewlon. However I cant find an internet price in Oz for this and am going by the OPT price list.

Cheers
Paul

[netwolf]

Paul, You could also try William in Hong Kong for pricing on Vixen gear. Nice guy and has been down here a few times to image under southern skies. He is a member here but have not seen him post in some time.
http://www.geocities.com/tatsco/OTA_set.htm

I saw a very good shot taken with the VMC260l on a G-11 at 3000mm on CN, follow this link.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ccd&Number=2202579&Forum=f27&Words=%2Bvmc%20%2B260&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2195550&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=3&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=

[Zuts]

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

Pricewise I would opt for the Vixen VC200L, however the Mewlon given the Takahashi reputation and AEC price is hard to go past. I would love the VMC 260L just for the extra aperture and longer FL. On an EQ6 i may be biting off more than i could chew with the VMC though. I would like some more feedback on the VMC though as in the future I may get a better mount. It will never be possible for me to get an RCOS as i havnt got a permanent setup (or enough cash :)). The VMC would be as big and portable as I could go so it is very tempting but I need to find the oz price and a bit more info before I decide.

Edit**

Out of my league but there is an Australian based 12.5 inch RCOS going for 12,500 AUD on Astro Mart at the moment ......




Hi Marki,

Binning is certainly an option. However I dont have too many pixels to spare. Initially I guess I would look at a reducer. This i guess would leave with with a long but still manageable FL for my EQ6. Later on I could look at a better mount.



Hi Fahim,

I have seen some images taken with the Vixen on an EQ6 so I believe it is possible. So initially I think I could get by using a reducer, guiding and without resorting to AO. At least with the SBIG I dont have to worry about the additional weight of a guide scope and cam, so that should help as well.



Hi Monty,

On a good night I can get sub-pixel guiding with no probs on the EQ6, so at least i know it is possible on my mount. However this is at a short 480 ml FL. I am not sure if subpixel guiding at 480 ml easily translates into subpixel guiding at a reduced 1.5 m FL. Does anyone know?



Hi John,

It's good to know that you are getting good results with the Vixen. Secondhand Vixens go for 1200 AUD so maybe that is the way for me to go. One step up rather than going for the Mewlon or the VMC 260 straight up.

Also thanks for your kind offer :)



Hi Dennis,

This probably doesnt concern me as hopefully it would be many years before I would need a mirror re-coating :)



Hi Terry,

This gives me a lot of confidence that I would be able to get decent results on the EQ6. Together with the images I have seen on the net it seems that an EQ6 and Vixen VC200L is a workable combination.



Hi Dennis,

At the moment I have a OSC camera so dont need a filter wheel. Hopefully at the long focal length manual focussing will be far easier than on my TV85. Were I to go the motorised route I would probably opt for another robofocus motor. I get good results on the TV85 with this and it doesnt consume any focus.



Hi Fahim,

The VMC 260L shot looks very very nice, thanks. Looking at the Hong Kong prices they are very similar to OPT. The mewlon pricewise seems very reasonable and compares well to OPT from the Australian supplier. Even cheaper considering that it includes GST.

[madtuna]

Paul, if I remember correctly, when I was choosing between the VC200L and the VMC260L, I was quoted something around $4500 for the VMC from Astro Optical in Sydney with an 5 to 8 week waiting time

[Zuts]

Hi Steve,

Can I ask why you opted for the VC200L over the VMC260L? Also, how well does you VC200L hold collimation and is it on a permanent setup?

Thanks
Paul

[madtuna]

Apart from being near half the price, from my research on everything I could find on the two, the VC200L just came up as a better dedicated imaging scope.
Even the dealer told me that when he could have pushed for the dearer sale.

I also looked at and through a few while in the states and spoke with thier owners including one guy who had both.

Collimation I've never had to touch, and from what I understand I doubt I will for a long while yet. If it ever did need collimation it can be done from four points but unless I knew exactly what I was doing I would take it to the dealer and get him to do it.

I originally had it on an EQ6, steady as a rock and looked damn fine to boot!

Now I'm whacking it on a G11 side by side with a 140 refractor which will be both a permanent pier aswell as portable

[madtuna]

Paul, also I've heard a lot negative talk about it having a R & P instead of a crayford, but 95% of the negative you hear is from people with no experiance with a Vixen R & P.

A good R & P is 100% better than a run of the mill crayford.
If I was to ever change it, it would only be to an electric focusor

[montewilson]

Some people wonder about quality of the R&P on my two Takahashis.

The R&P's are first class, no shift, no slack just smooth movement. A good scope like a Vixen shouldn't be a problem either.

[ozstockman]

Hi Paul,

There is a new VMC260L on ebay for $2999 + $115 for shipping to Australia. Here is a link (http://cgi.ebay.com/VIXEN-VMC260L-OPTICAL-TUBE-WITH-5-YEAR-WARRANTY_W0QQitemZ260248495684QQihZ 016QQcategoryZ74930QQrdZ1QQssPageNa meZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp163 8Q2em118Q2el1247)
Be aware that you will be asked to pay GST wich will add extra $310.

Also VMC models have different design and they are not coma free while VC models are.

cheers,

Mike

[ozstockman]

Hi Fahim,

thanks for the link. The price for VC200L is the lowest I've ever seen.


cheers,

Mike

[Zuts]

Thanks Mike,

This ozzie supplier http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/vixen-pricelist.htm will do it for 2135 AUD, for the VCL. Which is about the OPT price plus GST so seems pretty good. Still, nowhere near the Hong Kong price. AUD 1300 @ 1AUD=7.33HKD seems very cheap?

Cheers
Paul

[madtuna]

The VC200L for $2135 or did you mean the VCM for that price Paul?

[Tandum]

Have a talk to Steve at MyAstroShop. He is an authorized distributor in oz and I believe the next devilery of VC200L's will be around $1950 delivered to Brisbane.

If you import you may be charged 5% import duty on the cost of the scope alone plus 10% GST on the cost of the scope plus the postage fees to get it here. I'm wondering if the guys who got those refractors from china got hit up for these charges.

[madtuna]

Astro Optical Sydney and Melbourne $1889 VC200L

[Tandum]

Is that with the accessories, flipmirror finderscope and rings?

[madtuna]

all except rings...came with a dovetail

[Terry B]

And one was sold here recently for $300
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=32445&highlight=vc200l
I thought it was very under priced at the time.:shrug:

[Tandum]

And it was sold within 10 minutes. :(

[madtuna]

would have been curious to see what condition that one was in. I notice it's been converted to a truss tube.

300 was dirt cheap

[marki]

G'day

Yeah I thought as much (your camera is about 2 MP isn't it?). I was trying to think of another way to get the magic 2 arcsec/pixel ratio without using a focal reducer which is the most practical solution but I thought you wanted to stay at F9.

Good Luck :).

[netwolf]

William is a nice guy i have conversed with him many times one questions related to Vixen products. He is very helpful. He does seem to have a few different websites and this was an old link i had. Not sure if its up to date or not. I have emailed him about this thread and asked him if he could drop in and clarify.

The US price is a little higher usually because you are paying for the shipment from Japan to US. HK is closer and is a duty free port so maybe thats why prices are a bit better there. Once you add shipping and margin you might find that the price is very similar to some of the local dealers.
William himself has warned about the shipping costs and other fees you may have to add.

Regards
Fahim

[ozstockman]

I think you meant VC as it is what listed at http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/vixen-pricelist.htm

VCM should be $600 less if we are talking about 8"

Hong Kong price is fantastic. If I can get a VC200L for this price I will be more than happy.
So far I have a quote from Melbourne supplier which is $1820+GST. It's not bad considering that it's cheaper if you buy it from US(US$1899+ shipping + GST) but it's still not as good as HK price.

I emailed William yesterday asking if he still has VC200Ls in stock for the listed price but he hasn't replied yet.

cheers,

Mike

[ozstockman]

Hi Fahim,

If he sells it for $1350 it's still much cheaper than price from local suppliers. Even with $150 for shipping which is very high cost for shipping it from HK and plus 10% GST it's $1650 total price.

Do you have the same email that William lists on his old site or there is another one that he checks regularly?

I sent him email yesterday but he hasn't replied yet. I thought that's ok but after you mentioned that it's an old website I want to be sure that the email I used is correct one.

cheers,

Mike

[Tandum]

It's more that just 10% GST on the scope. GST is 10% of ((5% import duty on the scope) + (value of the scope) + (cost of shipping)).

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549 The last example on the page is the easiest to follow.

William has one in stock but I haven't got a price for it yet. I have a price of HK$10,900 + HK$703 shipping from another supplier up there which is over AU$1800 after duty. Astro Optical here are quoting $1749 + $30 shipping to me.

[ozstockman]

Hi Tandum,

As far as I know telescopes are duty-free. See
CHAPTER 90 (http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter90notes.pdf) and CUSTOMS TARIFF (http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter90goods_a.pdf)of Customs Tariff Act 1995. "Telescopes" are listed under "9005" ref #.

So only GST is required if the total price is over $1000.

Are you sure that the price from Astro Optical with GST included?
I've got slightly cheaper price from another company but it says "plus GST".

cheers,

Mike

[Tandum]

That knocks about $80 off then but GST will still be on the item plus shipping :(

I got this in an email from them today.
VC200L (list price $2099) our price $1749
VMC200L (list $1859) our price $1549.
We usually keep the VC200L in stock as it is the favoured
unit with its superb flat field optics.
Current delivery for both OTA's is approx 3 weeks

No mention of GST but an Australian shop wouldn't give prices without it.

William did say to keep an eye on this forum tomorrow.

[netwolf]

Tandum I have been advised that GST is only applicable on the cost of the item not the shipping cost. Also being a HK dealer William would not quote the GST this is would vary from country to country.

Regards
Fahim

[Tandum]

Fahim,
That is not what it says on the customs web site. Have a read. Personally, I've never been charged GST on anything I've brought in, most recent item being a 450D :)

[ozstockman]

Fahim, I think Tandum is right and it's actually quite clear from the examples shown on Customs website.

And of course William shouldn't have Australian GST included as it's not his responsibility. However considering that the price is over $1000 we will be asked to pay GST by the Customs as buyers when an OTA arrives to Australia.

Tandum, yes it seems that AO price is with GST which makes it the best in AU.
I've just sent them an email to double check and if it's true and William has no more left I'm going to buy from Astro Optical. Thanks for letting me know about their offer for VC200L.

I saw that they are official dealer of Vixen but since they don't have VC200L OTA listed I didn't ask them to provide a quote.

cheers,

Mike

[netwolf]

Tandum might be correct on this one, I have seen the examples before. But got the information from some one else's post i read at some point in time.
I have also posted previously on the topic of Duty, duty as pointed out in an earlier post in this thread should not be applied to Astronomical equipment including mountings for astro gear.
AO prices seem quiet good, the one nag i alwasy had with there website is that it only indicates a price range and not a price. I dont understand this system.

Based on the HK prices you provided from another HK supplier.
10900 VC200L +700 shipping would come to 1581AUD + 10% of 581 would come to 1639.1. When you consider local warranty from AO then there price is quiet good. Still most optical issues would be resolved by sending back to Vixen. So I would ask how long is the warranty, what does it cover. Will AO pay for shipping back to Vixen for service or will you have to fork that out. If AO will cover all costs during the warranty period then I would go with AO or other local providers who will and will match the price.

I have not bought anything from William so i will leave him to comment on how and if Warranty would be available on purchases from him.
My eye was on the used equipment that he sometimes has and in that case Warranty would not matter. I currently am looking for a 8" Newt and the R200 looks real nice, but I am yet to be convinced it will outperfrom a GSO 8" F4 in my suburban sky conditions. If i go with Cassegrain i will wait till i can afford the VMC260L or something in that size for Planetary imaging.

Regards
Fahim

[Tandum]

The 2nd hand VC he lists was sold a year ago so I'm guessing the SS has also. In his email he said he was updating the site today with a relaunch tomorrow. I agree that it's worth an extra couple of hundred to have local support for the product. When you boil it down, prices are pretty similar across the board and the US is being ripped off on the VC for a change :) I didn't bother asking about 260L prices, I just figured it'd be around $4K.

We appear to have hijacked this thread into a 'how cheap can you get it' thread :)

[netwolf]

Vixen and TAK pricing I find is quiet the same all over. Given the dollar rate its a good time to buy optics from Japan.

[Hagar]

Very spirited thread and just to throw the cat into the pidgeon coupe. Has anyone thought of or even heard how the Meade LX200 ACF performs as an astro imaging scope. What is its field like?? Flat or what?? Optics ??? They are not overly expensive as an OTA.

Your thoughts please.

[Zuts]

Hi,

Definately a nice scope, the 8 inch is about the same price as the Vixen. However I have decided I dont want blobby big round stars. Does anyone have any idea how 'spot size' figures in this and for the various full and reduced FL setups for the Meade, Vixen and Tak what the 'spot size' is?

The only problem I can think of with the Meade is that if you are unlucky you may get significant mirror flop, which you wont get with the Vixen and from all accounts only minor mirror flop on the Mewlon 210.

Still an eight inch meade is a nice compact scope and would compare well in weight with the Vixen and Mewlon, i seem to remember....

At 10 inches the Meade is quite heavy, nearly as heavy as a C11 OTA.

Cheers
Paul

[madtuna]

I have to admit...that mirror flop was one of the deciding factors when I bought my VC200L
I had a C8 and have a C11. atleast Meade got it right with the mirror lock

[marki]

Most of the mirror flop in the meades can be dialled out by adjusting the main focus knob. Just undo the single allen screw and turn the knob clockwise until it becomes tight, then back it out a touch and tighten it up. The rest is taken care of by the mirror lock and using a crayford. I haven't seen any spot diagrams for the LX200R/ACF series but the field is pretty flat with nice round stars to the edge but you do get some bloating in red (green and blue are spot on) when imaging. Both the meade 6.3 and 3.3 FR work ok but you need to put in a large format visual back in front of the crayford if you want to use DSLR or large format CCD as the original has an obstruction which reduces the 2inch clear aperture to about 1 and 3\4. I dont know if these are available for the 8 inch.

[ozstockman]

I've been thinking about 8" LX200-ACF as well, especially because it seemed to be cheaper than VC200L and I've already got micro focuser and Meade f/6.3 focal reducer that will fit it. However now after discovering that a VC200L OTA can be even cheaper than LX200 ACF I am not so sure. I guess they both are great imaging scopes but Meade LX200-ACF has a corrector plate which will collect dew.

From the other hand I don't have noise pieces and a focal reducer for VC200L and it means I need to invest more in VC200L if I want to make it faster.

cheers,

Mike

[Hagar]

Looks like the Vixen VC200L is the winner for me based on FL, flat field and vixen's quality and price and no mirror slop.
I wonder if we can get a better price for a bulk purchase.

[netwolf]

Doug, the VC200L is certainly a great buy, i could only wish they also made a 10" version. But what i have read about them indicate that there performance on planets is not as good. But for DSO work its great. Another thing to consider is how flat the field stays when you focal reduce it and when you barlow it up. I also wonder how this would perform in comparison to the upcoming GSO RC 8" scopes which are likely to be 2-3times as much. I have not been able to find any Optical quality measurements on the Vixen's.

Regards
Fahim

[Terry B]

My experience is that the field is perfectly flat across a 35mm frame without the focal reducer. It isn't quite as good with the focal reducer but stars remain almost perfectly circular towards the edge but not quite. Certainly no seagull shaping that other scopes seem to get.